Talk:Halo (franchise)/Archive 3

Failed good article nomination
I have reviewed this article, and do not feel it meets the current standards of a good article for the following reasons:


 * 1) The article is incomplete - currently it reads as a list of Halo stuff, but with no real overall perspective on the franchise.
 * 2) The article's focus is idiosyncratic - no focus on the comics?
 * 3) The article does not seem to provide much cultural context for the franchise.
 * 4) The machinima section is curiously unintegrated - as the only non-canon section, it seems like it should do more to talk about the culture of the Halo Nation than it does.

Good luck revising the article. I look forward to reading it again. Phil Sandifer 21:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Real quick: according to Xbox's website, Halo 3 had "more than 1.7 million pre-orders". http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/h/halo3/launch/20070926halo3biggestday.htm. Machpovii3 01:32, 27 September 2007

Vandalism
g unsigned comment added by Ijeaston (talk • contribs) 00:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

halo 4 is not as good as call of duty 5 or GTA 4

Arms Race
This article is missing the Arms Race series

Halo DS
http://blogs.ign.com/Matt-IGN/2007/10/02/67886/

Somebody add something about that please? Confirmed real. 12.210.209.18 20:06, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Confirmed by who? I'm sorry, but I don't believe random stuff Matt says in his blog unless there's some other source backing up his claim. And it seems the entire purpose of that blog entry is to get Wikipedia changed. Not happening. I'll consider it a rumour unless someone other than Matt can back up his claim. --Optichan 20:16, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay. The video footage looks convincing, but why has no other site or magazine ever mentioned this game? --Optichan 20:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Because IGN was the only people who got their hands on it? There should at least be a small mention of this somewhere, its big news. ShadowUltra 20:46, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, IGN were the only people to get their hands on it, which is why it should be questioned.--The last sheikah 21:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There's now speculation that the video shown was of a modded version of GoldenEye: Rogue Agent for DS. Not sure if sources will pop up soon, but just letting you know that people might start changing this stuff. --Thaddius 12:09, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * We should keep looking, but I think it would be strange to no take one of IGN's editors seriously, I mean they have some credibility and would be unlikely to go out on a limb if it was false and they knew it. Judgesurreal777 13:40, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As I stated in the other section, the video looks fake. I don't buy that single card download play would load that quickly. Also it looked like some of the controls didn't coincide with what was happening on-screenMavrickindigo 22:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Halo is for Xbox, not Nintendo. This is fake, definitely a mod.

umm, it was 2005, not 2007 that matt showed halo ds


 * Did you read the sources? IGN isn't exactly unreliable.... — TKD:: Talk  09:40, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

How about trying to get an official statement on this from bungie? Bungie usually has a good relation with the public. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.167.231.189 (talk) 22:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

halo weapons
hey could we get a page on the weapons of halo you know a list and discreption of them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackjohnson15 (talk • contribs) 15:32, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No, Wikipedia is not a game guide. Also, previous incarnations of such pages have been deleted. See, for example, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of weapons in Halo: Combat Evolved. — TKD::Talk 01:46, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

look on youtube —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki59 (talk • contribs) 17:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Story section?
I'm thinking that instead of having a brief overview of the plot of each game, there should be one section titled "Story" or "Plot" (or similar) and then use the sections for each game to describe the game's real world attributes. This way the story (all of the "in-universe" stuff) is together and easier to understand. Of course this article doesn't need to go into great detail, but what do others think? James086 Talk &#124; Email 10:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure. It wouldn't even have to distinguish much between games/books/other material, just a general overview of the entire fiction. Each of the individual product's pages gives quite a detailed plot summary of what is revealed by those pieces. Secondly, what do you mean by "real-world attributes?" Sales figures? Reaction? or something else? Oh, by the way, I only deleted the story summary in the section about Halo 3 as it basically revealed ALL of the major plot points with no spoiler warning what so ever. And also, the sections about Halo 1 and 2 don't give this information either. RC Master 13:10, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah I meant sales, critical reception and anything else that's relevant (like the midnight launches maybe?). James086 Talk &#124;  Email 09:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok I added the story section, it probably needs a bit of a clean up and I might have missed something so if anyone could have a look that would be great. James086 Talk &#124; Email 10:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The story section claims that Master Chief dies at the conclusion of the series, this is not true. Ending needs correcting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.166.100 (talk) 18:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The section says that he puts himself in cyro-freeze wich is a state of suspended animation not death. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  18:17, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting Facts
Master Chief was the first videogame character to be immortalized in Madame Tussauds’ 250-year history. -- Cedric.dsouza44 22:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

huh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tipo4u (talk • contribs) 13:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

But to be fair computer games have only existed for thirty years, so the 250 year thing kinda loses its impact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.40.11 (talk) 19:02, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That being said, that's still pretty cool. Not Mario, Link, Sonic, Kirby, Bowser, Mega Man, Samus, PAC MAN, Donkey Kong, but friggin Master Chief.  THat's saying something.  But you need a source.  Dachande (talk) 19:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

GA re-nomination
Do we think we are ready? Judgesurreal777 20:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No. At the moment the sections are inconsistent. I added the story section but a bit of the story is still covered in the game sub-sections, so that info needs to be removed from the other sections. Also I think the article needs to cover more; like a "Cultural Impact" or similar section. Halo definitely has had an impact but it's not clear in the article what that is. It shouldn't be very long though, maybe a week or 2, the article isn't in bad shape, but it's not in good shape either (oh dear, a bad pun ;) ). James086 Talk &#124;  Email 23:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Much has also been made of the literary and mythological references/comparisons/influences in Halo. Right now, we only have a scant reference in the lead about Niven's Ringworld. There's more out there. Not to mention the "This is the way the world ends" line, which dates all the way back to the Cortana Letters. — TKD:: Talk  23:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Once Halo 3 and this article are Good Articles, we will have a Halo Featured Topic :). Judgesurreal777 03:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok two new out of universe sections have been created, one dealing with the franshise's cultural impact and the other dealing with literary influences in it, any suggestion over what to do next? -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  21:28, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess you can nominate it at WP:GAC, it's much improved. David Fuchs ( talk  ) 22:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Halo Origins: Forerunner Chronicles
This section shouldn't exist. It's announced at the beginning of the podcast and then an hour later Mark McDonald admits that it was a prank and he's not going to work for BioWare. Can this be deleted by someone with the ability to do so? (the podcast in question is located on the front page of http://1upyours.1up.com ) 67.86.1.247 23:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Extra Pics
Yo, shouldnt we get the box art for all the other editions of Halo 2 and 3? Like the Legendary and stuff. Maybe even make a new section for it. --Ultimate_Chuck 17:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * We shouldn't use more copyrighted pictures than necessary. See WP:NFCC. — TKD:: Talk  09:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The Movie Canceled?
The movie isn't canceled for good, just postponed. The movie should be moved out of the "Canceled Projects" section and put in a new section called "Postponed Projects" 72.83.118.69 02:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As much as I myself would like to see it happen, there's no evidence that it's not postponed indefinitely; it's been called dead in its current form. — TKD:: Talk  09:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * this good for ya'? http://www.halothemovie.org/ read the post Nicatron (talk) 03:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Pop Culture
We should be including a section about Halo's effect on popular culture. This series is fast becoming the Star Wars of video game media and will likely spawn comics, tv, toys, and additional games. Right now everything is Halo. I even ran across a Halo cocktail called an Overshield --206.213.209.31 16:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It has already spawned comics, toys, clothes (at least caps) and additional games (with a entire series coming out on 2008) but we need proper references to develop a section, I will see what can be found on the web. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  20:55, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Contact Harvest
The book was released yeasterday, 10/30. Could this be updates on the page?

Catman847 16:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * done David Fuchs ( talk  ) 13:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

New article Halo Demo
I have proposed that this article be merged here. This is not my expertise so I'll leave it up to you guys & the creator of the new one. --Rodhullandemu  (talk - contribs) 22:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Redirected to Halo: Combat Evolved. We don't have separate articles for every single demo that appears. — TKD:: Talk  19:42, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Halo CE (Custom Edition)
I noticed that this version of Halo is not mentioned. This version lets the user play custom made maps and a lot more. There is no, single official site although most content can be found at http://hce.halomaps.org.

19:34, 18 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nat1192 (talk • contribs)


 * It is mentioned under the Halo: Combat Evolved section; it's not independently significant enough to give it its own section. — TKD:: Talk  19:42, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Better format for the Novelizations section
I'd like to see a better format for the list of novels. Right now it's just free-form text, and you have to do an eyeball search of the text to pick out the novel names among all of the other linked text. I'd rather see a discussion of the novelizations, with a current list of novels at the end. See the Warcraft books or List of Star Wars books for examples. I'll make an edit and try to clean it up, please feel free to massage it further if you like. Markkawika (talk) 00:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * On second thought, I don't think I'll do this. I know there's a person or persons trying to get this article awarded GA status, and I don't want to mess that project up. I also discovered the List of official Halo series media, which kinda contains the novels. Markkawika (talk) 00:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Minor Corrections Needed
The first section has the following phrase: "all the remaining installations can be activated remoted from "The Ark"." Remoted needs to read "remotely". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.208.149.5 (talk) 15:15, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've fixed it, thanks for spotting it. James086 Talk &#124;  Email 22:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Move to "Halo Series"
This is just a suggestion, but wouldn't this title be more streamlined than the current one? --Hydrokinetics12 (talk) 22:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It's in line with other similarly named articles, such as Fallout (series), Metal Gear (series), and Chrono (series). — TKD:: Talk  23:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

GA comment
With a quick glance, make sure that all of the single sentences are either expanded on or incorporated into other sections as they shouldn't stand alone. Also, the fair use images need to specifically state on the images' pages that they are being used specifically in this article. State "Fair use rationale for Halo (series)" in the heading. I'd recommend addressing these issues before the articles is reviewed. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 02:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * James086 took care of the fair use images, as for single sentences there is only "Halo: Chronicles" wich can not be extended until the game's release next year, even if we were to rename it to a new section like "upcoming games" the size of the section will not grow much. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  21:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

German Version
Hello,

In the article stand not the German version of Halo. Please add that. Look here: --84.164.74.138 (talk) 07:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge actionclix here
Its a glorified stub, but a referenced one so it has some notability, so it should be a brief referenced mention here. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 19:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think this is the appropiate place, we have a article dealing with marketing for Halo 3 and that is a more direct topic. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  19:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Wait, so these figurines are not an ongoing thing, they were just a marketing tool for Halo 3? Judgesurreal777 (talk) 21:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it's a separate game based on the Halo story/universe. ♦TH 1 RT 3 EN talk ♦ contribs 22:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Oppose - It appears that the game is only based on Halo and uses it's fiction, and as such it should have enough information to be expanded beyond stub status by the right editors (sections for gameplay, reception, development, etc.). I also don't see why being based on Halo makes it less notable then if the game was an original idea. ♦TH 1 RT 3 EN talk ♦ contribs 22:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Diabeetus
Why is the word Diabeetus repeatedly seen throughout this article? I swear I read it earlier and that word was never even mentioned... Can someone fix that please (I dont have an account) The person that did this must have had an account also, as this article is locked.

--> Fixed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mastercyclon (talk • contribs) 19:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, that's very funny. Suggest block for mister User:Mastercyclon here and restore article. --80.203.132.72 (talk) 19:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Broader Halo Universe
Should there be a short section putting this in context with the Marathon series, the halo "prequel" so to speak? If nobody better qualified on the subject wants to take a crack at it, I'd be willing to give it a shot if people think it should be added.

Knight709 (talk) 17:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The page Bungie Studios includes the Halo-Marathon connection, though Bungie hasn't specifically called Halo a sequel to Marathon (even though it may have a similar style). You could be bold and add a Halo-Marathon connection, although I think it's best to leave out speculation about whether the two storylines are related. Bungie has previously said they're not, and until they do it's merely a rumour. Bronzey (talk) 08:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree with Bronzie; they have specifically stated that are seperate. David Fuchs ( talk  ) 12:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

GA on hold
Dihydrogen Monoxide 01:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * at the top, perhaps?
 * "The cultural impact of the Halo series has been compared to that of the Star Wars franchise by Brian Bendis" - this implies either that Brian made Star Wars, or that him drawing that comparison is uber notable (to the extent that nobody else needs too) - should be reworded...
 * "The Master Chief travels back to Reach which is located in the Epsilon Eridani system and links up with the few survivors of Reach." - "The Master Chief" should have a lowercase T, and replace "which" with a comma
 * "The Master Chief stows away on a Forerunner ...." - paragraph could do with sourcing...?
 * "Establishing similarities between the plots of both works and comparing the characters present in them. With the Flood and Covenant taking the role performed by the Carthaginians in the Aeneid.[15] And comparing the Master Chief's role in the series to that of Aeneas and the playing as the Arbiter to Aeneas aboning part of his Roman virtue.[15]" - Really chunky here, try rewording and merging sentences?
 * In the "Games" section, it's a bit odd to just copy the lead from each article...stuff like "hat takes place on a mysterious terraformed construct referred to as 'Halo'." is odd considering we're reading about that in this article anyway (get my drift?)
 * "when porting real time strategies from PC to consoles.[32][31][33]" - you should'nt need 3 refs for this, should you? In any case, put them in numerical order
 * "The series has been confirmed to be episodic." - citation needed
 * "Peter Jackson will be the executive producer.[41] while Neill Blomkamp was signed on as director." - should that be a comma?
 * "Halo ActionClix is a collectible miniatures game by Wizkids based on the Halo series." - is the bold needed?
 * "There will be 3 different packs available on release..." - the refs in this paragraph need some punctuation under them
 * "In series one there are 84 figures available in the 4-figure..." - a bit too much gamecruft here?
 * All things addressed, I think. You were definitely right that sections of the games were simply copied from the leads of the articles, so I removed the story arc and redundant info in each one. One thing though, why do you think the series article needs the ? Thanks for reviewing this, by the way. :) David Fuchs ( talk  ) 02:31, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's mostly a habit of mine to add that to pages with dab brackets in the title...especially since the first google hit for halo (on WP) is this page (as opposed to Halo, which people could be looking for, etc.). Dihydrogen Monoxide 02:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow, that was fast, I just notice the review and ten seconds later David took care of it, as for the template its probably useful seeing there are a few alternate uses for "halo". -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  02:35, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm just that fast :P I've added the template now. David Fuchs ( talk  ) 02:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * And now it's passed... At the speed of light! Dihydrogen Monoxide 02:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * ...And that's how you run a successful op! In and out like well-lubricated lightning! (worthless comment added by David Fuchs ( talk  ) 03:01, 14 January 2008 (UTC))

Wheres the criticism?
I cant be the only one who hates halo and thinks its overrated. There has to be a criticism section.this game is far from perfect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Super Mario Bro (talk • contribs)


 * I restored this section because I was unsure whether the blanking was intentional. The criticism is usually aimed at one of the individual games so it is on the game's article. If you have a reliable source for criticism of the whole series you can add it or post the link here and someone else will add it. James086 Talk &#124;  Email 00:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Halo History Pack
The pack is a combination of both Halo 1 and Halo 2 on two seperated discs for the Xbox. I've seen these all over Japan. I think with more infomation, it could be notable enough to add it to one of the Halo articles. I'm going to research this project while I'm at it. Any objections? 1yodsyo1 16:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Not really. I haven't heard of anyhting like that here. David Fuchs ( talk  ) 16:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * In Australia there's a "Halo triple pack" which contains Halo 1, Halo 2 and the Halo 2 map pack disc. I don't think either is worth adding unless they contain something which you can't get somewhere else. James086 Talk &#124;  Email 00:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * What I got confused about it is that the Xbox Live banner was on it. Does Halo 1 have Xbox Live(Not in America, only in PC) in Japan? Or is it just Halo 2? That kinda bothers me, because I KNOW HALO 1 DOESN'T HAVE ONLINE PLAY ON THE XBOX. My research hasn't yield that fact just yet... 71.113.2.49 (talk) 01:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC) Thats me ^ Talk! 01:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I fail to see how that is relevant to the article. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  01:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Help!
I can not get the talk, T button or any other T alike buttons, to work! Help Please! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.28.87.154 (talk) 22:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? In-Game? This is definetley not the place to ask. Tomi Undergallows (talk) 17:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Early Halo Universe History
Why does the Early Halo universe history page redirect here? Shouldn't the page be considered as a separate article? --UNSC Trooper (talk) 12:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Because there probably isn't enough reliable sourcing to support a whole article on that topic. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 16:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Halo 4 will be out November 15 2010 with new game functions new weapons new uniform and glance of master cheifs face,  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.160.203.138 (talk) 20:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no proof of this, Microsoft hasn't announced the release date yet. Tomi Undergallows (talk) 18:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Reception
Is the reception section really necessary? This article deals with the series as a whole rather than the individual games and scores for the games are included in the relevant articles. I think any reception included should be in the section relevant to that particular game. James086 Talk &#124; Email 08:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. The 'impact' section is more germane to the series as a whole, and I think that is what should be expanded. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 12:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think a reception section helps comprehensiveness. All the other series article that are FA had them for that reason. There's no reason that both can't be expanded. I've been meaning to start working on this article for a while now as I think it could get to FA quite easily. I hopefully I can start in the next couple of days. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC))
 * A series reception section is quite nice for the reader, and in this case should probably have a paragraph on the music of the series as it has been widely acclaimed with each new game. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 16:43, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The reception section should probably be merged with cultural impact as a sub-section and renamed to "critical reception", reception is part of the series' impact. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  19:51, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Can we wait until I get a chance to add some reception content? If it is still a bit puny, moving it to the impact section sounds like a good idea. (Guyinblack25 talk 19:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC))

Halo Movie
Does anybody think we should start making a page for this? I had already made one, until an administrator deleated it. If you want to see it look for Halo movie and the history of this page (it's only half completed)! I was hoping that this time if I got enough support the page could stay up for good! Please write back if anybody thinks this is a good idea! (Ste900R (talk) 14:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC))
 * Unfortunately, with the movie postponed indefinitely, it is probably best to leave the content in the series article. If the movie actually begins production, then yes, it should have its own page. But right now, there isn't enough content to make a proper page. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:22, 24 March 2008 (UTC))

Getting to FA
Well, this has taken longer than I had hoped :-P Anyway, here are some things that I think need to be addressed before this can be taken to FA. Any help would be appreciated and preferred since I've never had any contact with the games/books/merchandise/whatever outside of Wikipedia.
 * Overview section
 * Common elements section: Needs content pertaining to common themes, characters, reoccurring gameplay elements, etc. The content should help give context to the story and any terminology mentioned later in the article.
 * Story section: needs to be further condensed and written in a more out-of-universe tone.
 * Music section: The content is written with emphasis on the soundtracks. The emphasis should be switched to the music and how it relates to its creation and the game series.
 * Development section
 * History section: Needs content about Halo 3
 * A new section about the promotion or the concept/creation of the series would help round out the development.
 * Reception: Needs critical response on Halo 3. Maybe some negative criticism to maintain NPOV.
 * References: Comb through refs to make sure they are properly formated and questionable sources are removed.
 * Article should be peer reviewed and copy edited by a fresh set of eyes.

I really wish I had more time to dedicate to this, but now is not the best time for me to go full steam on Wikipedia. I think getting this article to FA is very doable and any help provided is a step in the right direction. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:19, 24 March 2008 (UTC))
 * About your list: I'll get on development, I've got lots of info about that. As for reception, I'll go after the negatives which were prevalent throughout- like the level design. I've got some interviews with Marty which can be used for the music, but I think the relation to the soundtracks is fine as long as we have quotes about why he did the music the way he did (i.e. Halo's "sense of the ancient", Halo 3's focus on fleshing out previous themes.) I've got to deal with the FAC for Spyro 3 first, but after that I'll be focusing on this more. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 14:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, I'll keep working on it as best I can. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:58, 27 March 2008 (UTC))

Scratched Halo 3 Discs
They should probably include the many people who reported their Halo 3 game discs arriving scratched. Grcaphistory (talk) 14:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you know of a source stating that? Also that may be a better fit in the Halo 3 article. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC))
 * This discs issue was already mentioned in the Halo 3 article. Putting it here would be undue weight. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk  ) 21:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)