Talk:Hamilton, New Zealand/Archive 1

Suburbs of Hamilton
There seems to be some duplication as there are two categories - Category:Hamilton, New Zealand and Category:Suburbs of Hamilton, New Zealand and also a Suburbs of Hamilton, New Zealand page. To me, having a suburbs category makes a lot more sense than having the other category. Would someone like to combine any new content in the Hamilton, New Zealand category into the suburbs category? Hamutaro4 14:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the suburbs category is overkill for now. There only about 3 non-suburbs in the hamilton category. I'm moving everything under HAmilton for now. IF the Hamilton cat gets too big then it can perhaps be split. - SimonLyall 04:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Excuse me for reverting your changes - I believe thte suburbs category follows a convention - see the 'Auckland urban districts' and 'Wellington urban districts' categories - if anything the name should be changed to 'urban districts'. A 'Hamilton' category is a bit too general.  Besides, 'Suburbs of Hamilton, New Zealand' is already a subcategory of 'Hamilton, New Zealand' so it really can't hurt to have it.

Marketing Campaigns
Does anyone think it might be worth mentioning some of the notorious Hamilton marketing campaigns? These were notable for their general awfulness and I think they are worth preserving. Hamilton - Hamilton - Fountain City, Where it's happening (2000). Hamilton - More than you expect (2001). Hamilton - City of the Future (proposed only I think but generally adopted) & Hamilton - Where the grass is greener. References: http://www.paynter.info/miscellania/Hamilton/ Let me know what you think.82.20.15.113 17:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You'd find that it was 'Waikato - where the grass is greener' not Hamilton.


 * 'Hamilton - City of the Future' was actually 'Hamiltron - City of the Future' and it was never a 'marketing campaign' it was a running joke on a local radio station breakfast show.Hamutaro4 07:52, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

John Charles Fane Hamilton or John Fane Charles Hamilton?
I became highly suspicious of the reference to Captain "Fane Charles Hamilton" after a Google search turned up a mass of Wikipedia articles (in various languages) and obvious Wiki-mirrors. I have added a sourced, official ref (Hamilton City Council) to the name "John Charles Fane Hamilton", but I would also like it to be noted that a mention of his gravestone gives the word-order: "John Fane Charles Hamilton": Is anyone aware of proper biographical sources for this person (maybe he deserves his own article?). It seems highly likely to me that he was of, of related to, the famous House of Hamilton. Either way, it is highly unlikely that his middle names were used in practice: he was probably just John Hamilton, or Charles Hamilton. --Mais oui! 11:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC) --Mais oui! 05:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 

Long Lists of schools
Is this the right place for long lists of schools? There are 27 already and I'm guessing there are a few more out there. It's cluttering up the page. Any objections to them being moved to a separate page? Hamutaro4 13:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I've reformatted the list to make it less cluttering and moved it towards the end of the page where lists of links look better and don't break up the flow. I think we can live with it in its current form. Hawthorn 01:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Prehaps you want to list the schools under the Suburbs instead? coolgeek96 9:55, 18 June 2013 (NZST)

Notable Residents: Criteria for inclusion?
I've been adding a lot of people with little thought for this criteria apart from they have had some kind of major impact in their particular field. However, Darius_Dhlomo has been adding NZ field hockey players to notable residents lists for every city and small town in NZ. Do these people really warrant inclusion? Surely, if we include every representative sportsperson (rugby, netball, league, cricket etc.) then this list will be completely out of control.

At the same time, I think Daniel Vettori as one of NZ's top all time cricket players (a widely popular sport after all) warrants inclusion.

Shadylanenz 13:26, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Absolutely Daniel warrants inclusion - even went to my school St Paul's Collegiate School - I am not sure about some of the others (I've never heard of the billionaires alleged in Monaco - and does money warrrant inclusionanyway?)

Stollery

I don't think that field hockey players should be included, it's not like hockey is a huge spectator or participant sport in NZ.

Recently a few notables were removed and two rugby players added. Shouldn't we have some historical/societal perspective here? Howden Ganley never won an F1 race but he was definitely in the top group for a good while. How big would it be if there was a Hamiltonian racing in F1 at the moment? David Mackay is CEO of a corporation that is larger than any company in New Zealand. Just because he isn't in our newspapers everyday doesn't mean he's not notable. Also, personally I'd say yes to John Mitchell but no to Matthew Cooper - he doesn't have his own page. 220.104.133.155 03:55, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I deleted an AFL player from the notable residents - the guy who added it undid my changes stating 'he is a professional athlete in a notable league playing for a notable club - of course he belongs here.' By that definition, all of the Waikato Rugby team past and present (probably adds up to about 100 players since Rugby turned professional) as well as all the Hamilton based members of the Waikato/BOP Magic netball team and all professional cricketers to have ever represented Northern Districts while living in Hamilton - not to mention all the league players should be included as well. Can we have agreement that they have to have done something 'remarkable?' By this measure I also have big doubts about Chanel Cole, Daryll King (doesn't have an article on Wikipedia) and Let's Elope - is Tuhikaramea in Hamilton? 122.17.75.208 13:10, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the minimum should be National representative. The population of Hamilton is some 1/20 of the National population so a similar proportion of All Blacks, Black Caps etc will be from here. So anybody listed should probbaly be within a "Top 1000 NZers list" . So only all black greats, prime ministers, world champions and the like - SimonLyall 03:16, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Coat of Arms
Hamilton has a nice coat of arms, anyone here from the HCC have a copy of it? Would be cool to see it up there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.28.52.26 (talk) 14:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Economy
Is CTC Aviation significant enough to have it's own paragraph under the Economy section? I would have thought that many, many other businesses were more significant than this one. Strikes me as a little like advertising.

Hamutaro4 (talk) 07:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Seventh Largest City
Someone keeps reverting Hamilton to the 'fourth' largest city of New Zealand. Why is this? Clearly, the population of Hamilton City ranks it at 7th. There is a difference between the urban area and the city. The largest urban area is Auckland, then Wellington, Christchurch and Hamilton. Wellington isn't the second largest city because the urban zone includes Upper and Lower Hutt, Porirua and the Kapiti Coast. These aren't part of Wellington City but they are part of the metropolitan zone. With Christchuch, the outlying towns are also included to form the third largest urban zone. The statement in question is Hamilton City, with 120,000 people, making it 6th largest. Any reversion to 4th largest city shows ignorance on the part of the contributor in their ability to understand statistics. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Enzedbrit (talk • contribs) 08:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

I have removed the following from the article (Manukau, North Shore, and Waitakere are counted as cities in addition to Auckland). I think that this is quite patronising to readers of Wikipedia. Hamilton is the 7th largest city, and in that statement, the reality of size and ranking is made evident. North Shore et al are full, real cities, not simply 'counted as cities' and justification for this needn't be given. If one requires further clarification on what are New Zealand cities, there are links for them to follow within the article, without being told to do so in a manner that's irrelevant to Hamilton Enzedbrit 23:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Enzedbrit - I think you are being overly dogmatic on this point. What residents of Hamilton would like the world to know is that Hamilton is at the center of the 4th largest urban area in New Zealand. This is a matter of some sensitivity for those who live here, since it seems that Hamilton often holds a less prominent place in the nation's conciousness than it deserves. For example, for many years Dunedin was accorded the sobriquet of `main center' every night on the TV weather while Hamilton was not even mentioned, this despite the fact that Hamilton was the larger of the two even back then. This continues to annoy the residents of Hamilton to this day. The bottom line is that there is a fact here of importance to the residents of Hamilton that the technical definition of the word 'city' tends to obscure. If suitable language to express this fact can be found, I would like to see it included, especially since it addresses a common misconception about the place. Hawthorn 05:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

BTW - while you are quite correct in asserting that Manukau city, Waitakere city, and North Shore city are `real cities', please note that the current review of local government in Auckland includes a proposal to do away with the four separate city councils and have just one city in the Auckland urban area. If this happens Manukau city, Waitakere city and North Shore city will vanish overnight the same way they were created - by a stroke of the pen. Which will (among other things) solve our current problem with the wording of this page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hawthorn (talk • contribs).

YES! EVERYTHING that Hawthorn wrote. Exactly. (MeeeowX (talk) 02:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC))

The latest alteration "Hamilton is the fourth largest urban area of New Zealand. It encompasses Hamilton City,..." is ridiculous. Hamilton is NOT an 'urban area', it's a city. 'Greater Hamilton' only exists for statistical convenience. Unless, anyone can give me a convincing argument that Hamilton is first and foremost an 'urban area' and not a city, I think it should be changed back. 118.6.102.189 (talk) 02:48, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Seven Bridges?
The article says that Hamilton has seven bridges, however the page from the Hamilton City Council Website says only six. Can someone please explain to me? Adabow (talk) 01:56, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Pukete Bridge, Fairfield Bridge, Whitiora Bridge, Claudelands Rail Bridge, Claudelands Road Bridge, Victoria Bridge, Cobham Bridge. Sometimes people disregard the rail bridge I guess. Shadylanenz (talk) 13:27, 2 February 2008 (UTC)


 * What about the Flagstaff pedestrian bridge? If you are going to count the rail bridge, shouldn't you count this one too? Hawthorn (talk) 23:21, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

The Tron??
Ok well I'm considered 'young', 18 and I don't hear that very often, at all. Don't think it warrants inclusion.


 * I'm considered 'old', 47. I have lived in Hamilton for 15 years, and have never ever heard it used or read it anywhere. I regard its repeated insertion here as nothing more than vandalism and will remove it whenever I see it unless someone can justify it with authoritative sources. Hawthorn 01:01, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Retract that. Bloody typical. Not two hours after writing the grumpy diatribe above I saw the term used in Nexus. I conceed therefore that the term exists and apologise to anyone I may have accused of being a vandal. I still don't think it warrants inclusion though as its usage seems pretty `fringe' even within Hamilton. Hawthorn 03:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm 15, and I hear it all the time... —Preceding unsigned comment added by MeeeowX (talk • contribs) 01:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Some people may not know it but if some people do then just leave it what harm is it going to do ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kegzroxursox (talk • contribs) 06:50, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Hamiltron
We could have an alternate name as Hamiltron(city of the future), I live in Hamilton and I have heard it alot, great artice by the way I LIVE in hamilton and found out new things, wowDance-pop (talk) 08:22, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * it is mentioned at the end of the first paragraph in the "Hamilton Today" section. - SimonLyall (talk) 07:33, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Hamilton Rocks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.14.32.51 (talk) 04:07, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree re. Cafes
And, the section about demographics is misleading - "Hamilton is a rapidly growing city of over 130,000 people with around 1.5 million people - 40% of New Zealand's total population - living within a 250-km radius." How about narrowing the radius to exclude Auckland; indeed it is estimated that the BOP and also Hawkes Bay will have larger populations with a matter of years.


 * What is this person's point? Your knowledge of NZ demographics is obviously limited - to suggest Hawkes Bay will have a larger population (it is forecast to drop - see Statistics NZ website) 'with a matter of years'(sic) is deluded and irrelevant as is the comment about the quality of cafes.  The wikipedia entry doesn't allude to the quality of the cafes nor should it.--Shadylanenz

I think that persons astute point (something missed on Shadylanenz) is that a 250km radius takes in not only Auckland but the Bay too! A better stat would be say the pop'n of the Hamilton region (e.g Hamilton, Huntly, Cmabridge, etc.)

Indeed if you did a 250km radius of Rotorua the figure would probably be even bigger, and just as misleading.

Also, I am not quite sure where in Stats NZ you are getting your info. The census figures for 2001 state Hamilton as 138K (approx), Hastings is 59K and Napier 54K - which makes 113K - and they continue to grow (albeit more slowly). Likewise, Tauranga is quoted as 95K and is now nearer 110K - the growth of Hamilton is quouted at 5.5% and Tauranga 16.6%

This article perhaps should be flag for POV, since comments like As of 2004, the city is a vibrant place enjoying the benefits of rapid growth and not yet suffering from the negative consequences, though traffic congestion is increasing at a faster rate than population growth.

Who exactly agrees it is vibrant? Ianguy 09:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Although Ianguy and the guy from Rotorua's comments are somewhat uninformed and hamfisted, it does seem that the 'Hamilton Today' section should be rewritten or reorganised. Doesn't mean there is anything wrong with using words like 'vibrant' and 'lively' as long as it's backed up - eg. 25,000 tertiary students and more than 100 restaurants, bars and cafes in the Southend give Hamilton a vibrant feel etc.  Also, for anyone who is interested, the population figures can be found at Statistics NZ - look for subnational population estimates. Hamutaro4 14:35, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the quote about Hamilton having the second largest amount of Cafe's, after Ponsonby Road. It was mentioned as a quote from Lonely Planet, but I haven't been able to find a source to back this up. I've added the references to Lonely Planet's guide about Hamilton 'leaving Auckland’s Viaduct Harbour for dead in the boozy fun stakes'. If someone can find a proper source about the cafe claim, then it'd be a great bit of info to add back in. Nzwj (talk) 22:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Anon user edits
I've undone this edit] by an anon user. They didn't quite make sense to me (especially without a source) re the first phase of the invasion and also I wondered how they might have known that the inhabitants of the abandoned villages had fought along the Waipa River rather than the Waikato etc. Any other thoughts? Kahuroa (talk) 22:10, 4 December 2010 (UTC) Hello -the information is in The Waikato War of 1863-64 Dr Neville Ritchie 2001.Perhaps initial phase would be better rather than first phase.Ritchie has 20 references which I wont put here.I note that he seems to get a lot of info from a host of articles by military historian Chris Pugsley who has done a modern study of the battles in minute detail.Having read some of his stuff he has got some intriging links into the various local hapu who fought in the war-some of their hapu are still in the modern Nz army.He also has access to army documents of the time.Claudia Jan 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.35.32 (talk) 22:01, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Cowtown?
I was intrigued by the following comment in section 2 which doesn't seem to be particularly apt:

"However, Hamilton still struggles with the arguably undeserved nickname of 'Cowtown' due to its conservative rural background and relative lack of entertainment for a city its size. A more common nickname of "Hamiltron: the city of the future" is a gently ironic epiphet for the city."

Frankly the insert quoted above adds nothing to the article and demonstrates a lack of objectivity. For the record I wasn't born here and am not trying to give it a positive spin, just hoping to restore objectivity. (Having been born in Auckland I have heaps worse things I'd like to say about Akl)

I've lived in NZ all my life (I won't say how long that is), quite a bit of it spent in Auckland, some in other parts of NZ and the last 8 years in Hamilton. In all that time I've never once heard the term "Cowtown" applied to Hamilton, so would find it hard to agree that "Hamilton still struggles" with this as a nickname. Comments about the apparent "struggle" with a nickname people who've lived here and elsewhere have never heard of doesn't seem to be worthy of inclusion. It seems to have been added by someone unfamiliar with the place, to perpetuate the misinformation that there's nothing here?

Objective comments anyone? LyallDNZ 13:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

You're totally right! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.28.199.188 (talk) 13:43, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The lable does exist, see these article herald, council candidate and Waikato museum. I think the sentence is fairly objective in taht it says the wording is "arguably undeserved" - SimonLyall 02:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying the label doesn't exist (although despite being here for some years I'd never heard it). My concern is that it's not in common conversational usage and given the few instances of usage quoted, the term "struggles with" isn't really an appropriate description and gives entirely the wrong impression - not an NPOV.  In fact if you read the instances you quote, the Amanda Spratt article was one rant in a Sunday paper by a lady that's probably never been there - the whole tone of her article was very evidently one person's very negative point of view.  Reading some of her other articles I didn't think her opinion was especially relevant or useful there either.  The quote by Diane Yates was actually a positive assertion of the importance of dairying, not slagging "cowtown", and the Waikato Museum quote was clearly a statement that the label was "of the past".  In my view if that section of the article remains it needs to be more objective.  I agree with the "arguable undeserved, but don't agree that Hamilton "struggles" with the "cowtown" term. If it "struggles" with anything, it's fast growth, and traffic congestion in some parts of the city.  LyallDNZ 03:04, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Come on Simon, you can't be serious in putting up a NZ Herald article? Have you seen the state of NZ's print media lately?!:: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.90.1.140 (talk) 10:34, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've lived in Hamilton ALL my life, and have never once heard the nickname "cowtown". Welcome to the future. It doesn't exist anymore. Saying Hamilton still "struggles" with it is misleading.(MeeeowX (talk) 02:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC))

I think we could remove the reference to CowTown entirely at this point. It certainly existed as a nickname at some point, but as the comment above says, it isn't something Hamilton still struggles with. Alternatively we could replace the sentence with
 * Hamilton was once given the nickname of 'Cowtown' due to its origins as a rural service centre.

We should include a citation for this.- gadfium 18:17, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, a view from someone even less connected with the place here. I visited from Australia for three days in July. Didn't hear the name Cowtown, but if there is a good reference, there's no harm in mentioning it as a past nickname. The concept of a town struggling with a name is not encyclopaedic, so that should go. Just use Gadfium's suggestion above. I did hear the nickname "The Tron" used. THAT"S a nickname. "Hamiltron: city of the future" is not. That's a marketing slogan. HiLo48 (talk) 22:01, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it can go, gets only 208 Google hits (vs 21,600 for Hamiltron), most of which are of the form "a cow town" rather than "Cowtown". XLerate (talk) 23:42, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the Cowtown nickname from this page. The only justification for it being here is the brief mention in a non-factual, non-serious article that also calls Hamilton "sexually-transmitted disease capital of the country". We need better sources than this to justify inclusion. I don't think you'll find a single Hamiltonian who has heard of the term Cowtown in the last 10 years, but if there is a source that begs to differ, I am happy to reconsider. - --Nzwj (talk) 02:59, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * No, just because people don't like it doesn't mean it should be removed. You could perhaps mark it as less common but it was definitely common in the past. Moo - SimonLyall (talk) 09:31, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Wrong figures?
The first two population figures seem to be wrong.The population in 1864 was about 1400 but in the 1870s it dipped very low to about 800. I note there are no references for the these two statistics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.62.226.243 (talk) 09:52, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

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Railway stations
@ Akld guy, Thank you for trying to make sense of the railway section. It was written before there was a Hamilton Railway Station, Waikato article. Ideally there needs to be also a new article about the real Hamilton Central and then a major reduction of this section. In terms of passenger numbers, I doubt it's still true that it's the busiest in New Zealand outside of the Auckland and Wellington. With only 6 trains a week, the Tranz Alpine at Christchurch must handle more passengers. Johnragla (talk) 10:01, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the prompt reply! The section presents the info in an out of sequence fashion, making it difficult to understand. I'd appreciate any work you can do to fix it up. Akld guy (talk) 10:17, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

@Akld guy, It doesn't seem worth fixing until there's a Hamilton Central article, which would allow the Stations paragraph to be reduced to a couple of lines. Meanwhile I've added sub headings, which I hope makes it a bit clearer. Johnragla (talk) 10:28, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Suburbs - should we follow the census boundaries?
Is there a reason for the current list of suburbs? Many are very short stubs and their boundaries seem far from clear. Would it be better to use the suburbs as listed by StatsNZ under Waikato - Hamilton? They have mapped boundaries and census data, whereas some of the current list just have a road name. For example, St James Park seems to refer to an area around St James Drive, but I can find little information about either, which means such articles can never be much more than short stubs. Johnragla (talk) 13:27, 20 July 2017 (UTC)


 * This raises an interesting point, which by coincidence I have just been investigating because of the definition of Auckland Region's boundaries in the second paragraph of the lead at Auckland. I'm afraid it's bad news. If you look at Statistics NZ's definition of urban area, here, you'll see that they define it for population data gathering only, and do not base it on "administrative boundaries". So it seems that they may use a different definition of urban area than local government does. This is stated more clearly in the very first line of Urban areas of New Zealand. Note: in the just mentioned case of Auckland, the boundaries quoted, based on Stats NZ, would appear to be different than the area governed by Auckland Council. It's a problem. Akld guy (talk) 20:35, 20 July 2017 (UTC)


 * I've just checked the Hamilton roads map against the StatsNZ map and they match exactly. Hamilton must be more fortunate than Auckland in that respect. Johnragla (talk) 21:30, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Maybe. Auckland's might also match. I haven't checked. Akld guy (talk) 22:02, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Another option could be to use the suburbs named on the LINZ 1:50,000 map. However, it spells Queenswood with an 's' (which few other sources do) and includes Deanwell, Fairfield, Fitzroy, Forest Lake and Harrowfield, which are parts of StatsNZ areas. In the case of Fairfield, in particular, the name is more commonly used than the Chartwell & Clarkin StatsNZ areas, which it shares with the area commonly known as Chartwell.

So it seems there is no ideal solution. I've moved the lists from my comments above and added them in this table, together with the LINZ names and, (in brackets), the parts of the other areas included in those LINZ named suburbs.

A solution could be to include the table in the suburbs article, modified to move the articles on Ashmore, St James Park, St Petersburg and Somerset Heights into the Huntington article, the Crawshaw and Thornton articles into Grandview Heights, Magellan Rise and Sylvester into Flagstaff and Callum Brae in with Rototuna. Any thoughts please?

Johnragla (talk) 09:08, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

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Colonial history
Is a 1979 tourist guide an appropriate source for statements such as, "At the end of the Waikato Campaign in the New Zealand wars the four regiments of the Waikato Militia were settled as a peace-keeping force across the region"?

I suggest it would be more balanced to use a more recent source prepared by Hamilton City Council and Nga Mana Toopu O Kirikiriroa and say, "After the invasion of the Waikato and confiscation of the invaded land, militia-settlers were recruited in Melbourne and Sydney. Hamilton was settled by the 4th regiment of the Waikato Militia." Johnragla (talk) 21:00, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

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When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 15:58, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

disused underground railway station
In a previous |talk section and in the link to the next station at Hamilton railway station, New Zealand it was suggested this underground station be called Hamilton Central. However, that name is already used by Hamilton Central railway station in Scotland. The now underground station was only ever called Hamilton West (also a Scottish station name) and Hamilton, which is also the name of the current station. Any other suggestions for naming an article on the underground station please? Johnragla (talk) 13:02, 4 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Hamilton Central railway station, New Zealand seems to be the logical name while it is still defunct. Akld guy (talk) 13:38, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

I used the link at Hamilton railway station, New Zealand to create Hamilton Central railway station, Waikato, but the name could be changed. Johnragla (talk) 09:34, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Sewerage
Regarding the section titled 'Sewage', as this article is about a place in New Zealand, where British English is used, should it not use the term Sewerage? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.152.58.120 (talk) 08:38, 18 May 2018 (UTC)