Talk:Hamilton (musical)/Archive 1

Javier Muñoz needs to be listed as playing A. Hams in the Broadway previews
I'm not sure how to do formatting with these boxes, or how one would format this, but Javier Muñoz has been playing the role of Alexander Hamilton weekly during the Broadway previews, and indeed played the role during President Obama's viewing of the show. This info needs to be listed for completeness's sake (as well as to give due credit to the actor). Does anyone have any ideas/ability to make this work? LookOnMyEditsYeMighty (talk) 19:56, 1 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Welp, I got bold and tried out a solution. I added an extra box for Hamilton w/ Lin-Manuel and Javier listed as playing the role, and a "cast replacement history" (tbh maybe should just be "cast history", might go edit that in a second) entry that points out when this change was announced, cited to playbill. If anyone thinks this is less than satisfactory please feel free to change it/let me know! LookOnMyEditsYeMighty (talk) 20:18, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

No Longer a Stub
I couldn't tell of the assessment request list on WikiProject Musical Theatre/Article Assessment is active or if someone who's a member of WP:MUSICALS could change it - it's at least B-class, and given the acclaim it's getting, merits some attention. Jlevye (talk) 00:06, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I think this article needs a Synopsis and Critical reception section, at a minimum, before it is a "C", I think it needs analysis of the music for a "B", and I would like to see Dramatic analysis, and perhaps more about the "business" side, for example, ticket sales. The musical theatre criteria at WP:MT, Article Assessment are a good starting guide. Also, you might take a look at some of the good or featured musical theatre articles like Fun Home and Hair.


 * I have assessed as a Start, although just barely because it really needs a better Synopsis, which, to me, is one of the most important parts of a musicaltheatre article. Thoughts, anyone else??Flami72 (talk) 10:14, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * There are actually some Critical responses (review quotes) within the article, it would be easy to separate them out into their own section. Some of the references need to be fomatted (some are bare URLs, some do not have access date, etc.)Flami72 (talk) 10:59, 22 September 2015 (UTC) Addendum: I partially formatted the bare URLs and also added one sentence about advance sales. That's all for now. Flami72 (talk) 11:33, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I added the Business and Critical response sections as I noted above. I think this is a good "start" but it still has no synopsis, which I do not think I will be able to write in the next few weeks.Flami72 (talk) 10:40, 25 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for taking a look at this. I agree about the summary - I haven't seen the show so would have to do a lot of digging to write a summary, so glad someone else is jumping in to work on this.Jlevye (talk) 17:11, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Overall Improvements
I was looking at WikiProject Musical Theatre/Article Structure and noticed that this article does not follow the correct order. I think fixing the order would make the page flow much better. I feel like the Concept section could easily be combined into the Background section or into a new Musical Analysis section. If a Musical Analysis section is created, I think the allusions made in the show should be addressed like Macbeth, The Pirates of Penzance, and The Notorious B.I.G.'s Ten Crack Commandments. Also, the lead needs a two-sentence plot summary. I feel like these changes can really help elevate the page and hopefully help its assessment. Kathleenlikesbread (talk) 16:26, 8 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Although the guidelines are just that--guidelines, I agree that some re-arranging is in order here. Personally, (and against those guidelines) I like to see the Production section after the Background or History (if it exists). Then the Plot/synopsis, cast/characters and musical numbers (or reverse the order, songs and then cast). The ideas suggested about the Musical Analysis sound good on first reflection, let's see what it looks like on the page (as they say). And, according to the referenced guidelines, the "synopsis should be between 800 and 1100 words, with leeway for an unusually complicated plot. ". I have no way to count the words in the plot, but it appears to be over the 800-1100 words, and seems to be overly detailed. I agree that the lead should contain a brief summary of the musical. I don't know if two sentences or more would be appropriate; see, for example, the article on The Sound of Music, which has 5 sentences, including mention of the famous songs. In other words, whatever is appropriate to the piece. I do not intend to work on this article in the forseeable future, but may drop by once in a while. End of my 2 cents. Flami72 (talk) 19:23, 8 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I made one rather simple change, to put the cast/characters and list of songs directly after the Synopsis, following the standard Musical Theatre structure. Flami72 (talk) 10:58, 9 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply! I agree with your suggestions and changes.  I took a look at the summary, and it's about 3500 words right now.  While it is really well written, it could definitely be edited down to be more concise and shorter.  I think I will try to tackle that this weekend.  I’m also not a fan of the Recordings being buried all the way past Awards, but that is the what the musical theatre structure guide suggests.  Does anyone think it would look better with the Musical Numbers category, kind of similar to how the Fun Home article does it?  Thanks for your input!  Kathleenlikesbread (talk) 15:53, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Placement of recordings section
RE: placement of recordings section in the article. As you (Kathleenlikesbread) wrote, according to the article structure guidelines, the recordings section goes after the awards section. I looked at several articles:
 * In Allegro (musical) the "Music and recordings" section is after Production history and before Critical reception (thus, not per guidelines) -- this is an FA article;
 * In Kinky Boots (musical) the Recordings section is after the "Awards.." section, last section in article, per guidelines -- this is a GA article;
 * In Carousel (musical) the "Music and recordings" section is after Productions section and before Critical reception and legacy (this is not per guidelines) -- this is an FA article.

My suggestion: whatever anyone wants to do with the recording section, let's talk it out on this talk page. There seems to be differing opinions as to where to put the section, not withstanding the guidelines. I have no opinion, but lean slightly towards the placement as in Allegro and Carousel, as it makes sense to me to keep the music and recordings together. (Also, those FA articles had been much worked-on and discussed).

As a side note, perhaps the guidelines should be changed to be, at least, more flexible. That issue should be raised, to be fair, at the talk page of Musical Theatre. Flami72 (talk) 09:37, 17 October 2015 (UTC)


 * One more: South Pacific (musical) has "Music and recordings" as the next to last section (prior to Notes & References) in the article -- this is an FA article. Looke like there is no particular precedent for the placement, so a discussion on this talk page seems, to me, the way to resolve. I misread the "Music and recordings" section, that is "Musical treatment", not the list of songs in the show; I now have no opinion at all! By the way, to change the guidelines, WP:CONLEVEL offers some useful advice.Flami72 (talk) 16:53, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Synopsis length
As noted above, the synopsis was excessively long — over 3,200 words. I've tried to chip it down, but as it stands now I've only gotten it down to about 2,000. I'm sure that if someone really "sweats" it word-by-word, they can get it smaller, but I'm not entirely sure that's necessary. I checked some other musical synopses to compare lengths, and I found that: Based on these precedents, I feel like my 2,000-word version is entirely reasonable and thus I have removed the excessive-detail notice from the plot summary section. For the most part, I edited down the previously-existing summary, but here and there I wrote longer sections from scratch (the opening song and the segment from "A Winter's Ball" to "Wait For It", for example). I did the whole thing in plaintext and then added the wikilinks back in after the fact, so forgive me if I missed any. I hope it's all satisfactory. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 00:32, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Into the Woods' synopsis is a similarly ridiculous nearly 3,000 words, but its plot is probably at least as complex as Hamilton's, if not moreso.
 * Wicked's synopsis is nearly 2,300 words, which to my eye also looks a little excessive, but it is a Good Article, so this gives ample precedent for a ~2,000+ word synopsis.
 * Phantom's synopsis is about 1,250 words, which is about as short as I can imagine would be possible for a musical as long and complex as these four. Even this is over the 800-1,100 word guideline.

Infobox
For the record, this is what the guideline at WP:MT (Article Structure) states: "Future productions should not be listed in infoboxes. Please wait until the production begins previews." I have been removing such future listings over the last few days, but, mindful of edit warring and WP:3RR, I will no longer delete such listings. Flami72 (talk) 20:38, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

New articles on Hamilton songs.
Hello Hamilton fans. As you all know, this musical is critically acclaimed, and talked about by practically every news outlet. I have been doing a lot of research on Hamilton songs and gathering together reliable third-party sources to to start to craft comprehensive articles on some of the musical's more famous and analysed songs.

I would really appreciate it if you could pop round and improve/copyedit/etc: Alexander Hamilton, The Schuyler Sisters, Satisfied, Wait For It, Say No To This, The Room Where It Happens, and It's Quiet Uptown.--Coin945 (talk) 16:27, 20 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Wow! What a lot of work and thought you must have put into this project--nice! I haven't seen the musical, but I took a look at one of the articles (Satisfied) and just added some wiklinks, formatting, minor copy edits. For a reason I can't explain, I wanted a date in the lead, so I added the Broadway date, but feel free to remove it as it is in the infobox. I also added the songs template to the talk page. I assume you will wikilink the songs in the Hamilton album article. I probably will not have time to look at any oher of these songs, for a good while, but...thanks for these.Flami72 (talk) 17:07, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Info from this In the Heights-era AMA should be included...
...as Hamilton was just being completed around this time and lots of Miranda's responses are fascinating.--Coin945 (talk) 05:16, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Go for it. Brianga (talk) 18:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

When did it transfer to Broadway?
The article says it transferred to Broadway in August. 2015. But we saw it in previews there in July, about a week before its August opening. Do we have a source for when it really moved to Broadway? Frank Lynch (talk) 01:11, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

Hamilton's America.
I watched Great Performances tonight on PBS. The episode is called Hamilton's America. It covers highlights of Hamilton's life, how Lin-Manuel Miranda found the biography by Ron Chernow, how it seized his imagination, and covers the 5-1/2 years it took for him to write and open the show. Insights by Miranda and other cast members are woven throughout. The thoughts of others are featured, including those of Chernow and Presidents Bush and Obama. Substantial segments from the major songs are included.

Since this documentary gives a lot of insight into Miranda's creative process and the birth of the musical, I think it will be useful for the authors here. Hamilton's America is available on PBS to view. The running time is 1:22:35; the webpage says that access expires 11/19/16. http://www.pbs.org/arts/pbs-arts-festival/2016/great-performances-hamiltons-america/ I'm sure that you will enjoy it.

Thank you for your attention, Wordreader (talk) 05:29, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Comment by student
Hi everyone, I'm a student learning about Wikipedia. I noticed that citation #25 ("Mandy Gonzalez Sets Date to Replace Renee Elise Goldsberry in Broadway's Hamilton") is missing a URL. --Rebeccaldenyer (talk) 19:32, 26 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Finished to ref, thanks! (Actually not missing the url but missing author, date, work.) Flami72 (talk) 19:50, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

"being deemed a cultural phenomenon by many"
What is this supposed to mean? 98.143.78.114 (talk) 18:57, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It means that it's deemed revolutionary (haha, make a pun), or something never seen before in this culture. &#123;&#123;SUBST:JackOfTrades1776&#125;&#125; (talk) 21:08, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

Archiving
Adding ClueBot III's script to archive this talk page. Elisfkc (talk) 19:46, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

More Info
Some more interesting facts that could be added are how before each show, Lin Manuel Miranda would have a lottery where people could enter by paying ten dollars. They would then end up being front row if drawn. He would then also put on a "Ham4Ham" mini performance, varying every time with different people, songs, dances, etc. The article seem unbiased and neutral, as it just sums up the accolades of the show as well as the description of the music and acts. Artists who are on the Hamilton Mixtape could also be added. Paige Kremer (talk) 04:59, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Vice President Mike Pence
I added a quote by Steven Van Zandt that is highly relevant to this article. While the article sources Rolling StoneWall Street Journal, clearly state that Van Zandt agreed with the Hamilton cast's comments, he made a solid point as to the way it was handled. Can someone explain why this should be removed the way it was? The section on Mike Pence seems very one sided and some balance is needed. thanks. H McCringleberry (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:10, 31 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Your claim about its relevance is exactly the point. What does Van Zandt's opinion have to do with anything? Was he directly involved? No. Also if you read the source, his actual statement was cherry-picked in this article to sound more negative than it actually was. He also said: "The statement is beautiful. And completely inappropriate at that time. And I would defend the cast's right to be inappropriate forever." Even his own bandmate disagreed with him. But that's the point. Please see WP:UNDUE. This section is just about what happened that night, what was said, Pence's reaction, Trump's response and the newsworthy aftermath. All that is already in the section. It's not about quoting every celeb's 2 cents after the fact, whether pro or con. That really would make it one-sided, as most celebs' public statements supported the cast. So what? Those distractions would send the section off the rails. If anything, celeb reactions might be in a separate article, which you're certainly welcomed to start. X4n6 (talk) 01:24, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Ok, fair enough. thanks. --H McCringleberry (talk) 19:52, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Glad to help. Cheers! X4n6 (talk) 00:09, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a section on the controversial casting practices?
There was a lot of coverage last spring over the "NON-WHITE" casting call that was put out. I think this is relevant to the history of the show.

Thoughts? Eric Cable ! Talk 20:05, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
 * If this was an article on only the Broadway production, sure. In my mind, it is not notable for the musical as a whole, which is what this article is about. Elisfkc (talk) 20:19, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
 * OK I get what you're saying, but the same casting call went out in LA and SFO and they continue to have "non-white" casting policy with most of the roles going into the tour. Eric Cable  !  Talk  20:38, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I see your issue. The producers have made clear that a major point of the production is to show the founding fathers in predominantly non-traditional, non-white casting. That's well established. The fact that the tour follows that same principle is neither newsworthy, nor surprising. The inelegant - and inaccurate - wording of the, since corrected, audition notice is all this is about. My concern is WP:UNDUE, as we shouldn't provide a misimpression, since there are actually several white roles and castmembers in both the Broadway and current touring productions. X4n6 (talk) 22:14, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Reassessment - C Class

 * The main thing preventing this article going higher at the moment is too much irrelevant content.. As per WP:Musicals guidelines, Cast list should be West End/Broadway only, with notable cast members of other productions in prose, although I appreciate many of the performers in Hamilton are notable. It may be worth going for a separate article for casting information to be created like this one for Billy Elliot the Musical. The notable cast replacements list is also far too long and is unsustainable going forward. This full list could be included in such an article (providing it remains referenced) and a shortened version in the article. A full list of current casts should not be present! this information is readily available on the productions website.
 * Touring cities - Content is not neeeded
 * Awards - I propose a split to a new article similar to this one for the musical Kinky Boots. With new productions opening all the time, again this list is already too long for this article.Mark E (talk) 07:42, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Is there a way to reorganize the notable cast replacements section to be more like The Phantom of the Opera (1986 musical) ?
 * Angus I think that's a good idea, I was trying to remember where I had seen a replacement cast section like that previously. Phantom had been running 30ish years and is much better. I'd still opt to delete the current cast lists as anyone notable would appear in the replacement cast history. Happy to take a go at doing this when I find the time!.Mark E (talk) 17:09, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ Please look this over and feel free to remove non-notable entries from the lists. AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 18:42, 6 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Are Chicago and First U.S. tour West End considered major enough to be listed up in the Original productions list? I think they can be removed from that section and left in the Current casts of English-language productions section with former cast members moved to the notables. Any other thoughts? AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 18:47, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I stand by that the Casts of current and upcoming productions table should go because any notable replacements could be listed below, and it is something that could prevent the article getting GA for example as it doesn't fit the WP:Musicals guidelines. It's always been a difficult area when a show is so popular. See Hair (musical) for a "Good" assessed musical theatre article - you'll see its more about the show than the many casts throughout the years. I think for the main cast table you can get away with merging the off-broadway/broadway casts (only one cast member is different), Chicago - Yes I would keep this as a major production in the cast table, but not the tour. West End production will belong there but the show doesn't begin previews for another 7 months...Mark E (talk) 20:08, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Refrains
I removed the refrains / catchphrases section as this reads more like a trivia section and synthesis referencing just the lyrics from the musical itself. AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 18:59, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Several of the major characters in the story are accompanied by their own refrain, worked into future songs by the company.
 * When Alexander Hamilton is addressed by name, it is almost always in the style of his titular song. The line "I am not throwing away my shot" is also repeated throughout the play in reference to him.
 * Nearly all of the musical's characters say "Aaron Burr, sir" when they address him for the first time, in the style of the song titled such. Hamilton also addresses him like this throughout the play. Other characters also repeat Hamilton's taunt at Burr, "If you stand for nothing, what will you fall for?".
 * When either of the main Schuyler sisters (Angelica or Eliza) are introduced to someone new, their names are sung like they are in "The Schuyler Sisters".
 * George Washington says, "That's an order from your commander," to Hamilton in nearly all of their confrontations. The line, "Who lives, who dies, who tells your story," is also repeated in the manner the Washington says it in History Has its Eyes on You.


 * Agree with these edits, they all go without saying Mark E (talk) 20:12, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 April 2017
I'm a student at College of Dupage, and for an English assignment we have to edit a Wikipedia article. When I first started looking at this page it was not locked. I was wondering if I can continue to edit this page. My current edits I want to add are down below, with the section they will be under, and citations. Thank you.

Under the Legacy and Impact section Broadway: Hamilton uses two different transformations to show change. The musical uses the background of the American Revolution and also uses the musical genre of Hip Hop to tell a story. [1]

In the "Use in Education" section In 2016, Moraine Valley Community College started a Hamilton appreciation movement, Straight Outta Hamilton, hosting panels and events that talk about the musical itself and relate them to current events.[2]

Jump up ^ Miranda, Lin-Manuel, and Jeremy McCarter. Hamilton: The Revolution. New York, NY: Grand Central, 2016. Print. Jump up ^ https://onebook.morainevalley.edu/ Shapirob (talk) 17:34, 17 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Since you're with WikiEd, request confirmed status, maybe? Make sure to include the link to your course.  Programming Geek talk to me 20:23, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Pinging for response and marking as answered.  JTP  (talk • contribs) 15:02, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

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"Historical differences" is mostly WP:OR
There are numerous statements in this section, supported not by reference to reviews or critiques of the play, but by references to history. e.g "However, Hamilton remained close friends with Washington and highly influential in the political sphere.[116]", where the ref is to an article about the historical person, not a review of the musical. This is WP:OR (specifically, synthesis): "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." The editor does exactly that: compares the play with history and concludes that the play is inaccurate. Editors are not allowed to critique, only to cite a reliable source that makes such a conclusion, not put it together yourself. The section "Criticism of historical differences" meanwhile does cite criticism, not originate it, so it is valid. "Historical differences" should all be deleted except for any parts that could be merged into "Criticism of historical differences". 202.81.249.207 (talk) 05:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)


 * The section "Historical differences" is helpful in highlighting how far the show strays from historical documented facts to meet the needs of fictional drama. However awesome a piece of art the show is, it cannot be read as a historically accurate portrait of events, as Lin-Manuel Miranda himself states in his book "Hamilton: The Revolution" and in this respect the section is fully referenced and appropriate. Isananni (talk) 20:45, 15 May 2017 (UTC)


 * It can be interesting to highlight/read about such things, but since this is WP, we should only do it as a summary of reliable sources that discuss these inaccuracies in connection to the musical. WP:s basic position is "Well of course it´s not historically accurate, it´s a freaking musical, an entertainment!" In short, apply the spirit of the advice at WP:FILMHIST. Leave the rest to sites like http://hamiltonmusical.wikia.com/wiki/Hamilton_Wiki Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:33, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The section is perfectly adherent to WP policies, while I personally do not share your view that WP's terms in describing its position include "freaking". Please refrain from offensive language per WP:PG. Isananni (talk) 13:02, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I´m reading the section and I disagree, so I may do some editing here. For starters, the bit about Angelica seems to expand beyond what´s in the sources (the short interview seems an ok source though). The bit about Burr is unsourced. Language such as "has been one of the biggest mischaracterizations of the real Alexander Hamilton for centuries" seems way to passionate to be stated in WP:s voice, but I haven´t actually read the source yet.


 * About "freaking", because of your comment I checked it at Wikiquote, and this made me chuckle: "Freaking is often used in motion pictures as a substitute for fucking so that characters can be shown to swear without the motion picture incurring censorship or a higher certificate than it otherwise might." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:42, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


 * WP:PG applies to all users editing on Wikipedia, including supposedly undercover Hollywood stars and this is not a movie. Isananni (talk) 13:56, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
 * You´ve slightly lost me, I´m afraid. I don´t get "supposedly undercover Hollywood stars" and your WP:PG links are not that helpful: "This page in a nutshell: Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are pages that serve to document the good practices that are accepted in the Wikipedia community. This policy describes how WP policies and guidelines should normally be developed and maintained." That´s off topic, isn´t it? But, this may not be a fruitful line of discussion to continue, so we can just end it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:11, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Using offensive language, however camouflaged, is not WP good practice, if it ever is. Isananni (talk) 14:27, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

In that section, can you tag on whatever lines are not supported by sources? Keep in mind that some of the historical differences and explanations are primary sourced by commentary from Miranda. AngusWOOF ( bark  •  sniff ) 14:04, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Thank you, that's a sensible suggestion. Isananni (talk) 14:08, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Here are some more articles you can use, just from a simple Internet lookup:       Apologies in advance if they were already used. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 14:15, 17 May 2017 (UTC)


 * please try to use the articles that highlight the differences between the historical account and the musical. Citing Chernow's book chapters is pushing the original research / synthesis issue.  It's better when there's a news article that does the comparison instead of the Wikipedia article presenting the differences. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 16:46, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Please feel free to replace the reference where a better citation is available or to add another one. The pages in the digital edition of Chernow's book differ from the paperback's and the facts as reported in the book are described over a number of pages, that is why I refer to the chapter. I felt a reliable source in the immediate fruition was better than no source at all and it is actually difficult to reference something a character did NOT do other than stating that there is no evidence at all he/she did it other than in Miranda's fictional work that some people unfortunately take as documented facts. Furthermore, unlike in the subsection "critics on historical differences", reporting documented facts with reliable sources is NOT original research, while expressing the opinion that the show's manipulation of the historical events gives a distorted and unsympathetic picture of Jefferson would be original research unless, as is the case in this article, it reports an acknowledged historian's opinion with related citation. I hope the difference is clear. Isananni (talk) 17:43, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

BTW, this was also discussed at the OR noticeboard in April:. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:26, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Lin Miranda Isn't In It Anymore
Why is he listed as still being on Broadway "2015-present"? He left last July and currently shooting Mary Poppins. It should change to reflect that or to '2016'. 82.44.112.108 (talk) 22:00, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Because those are the original cast members for those locations/tours. Read a section further for the replacements. Elisfkc (talk) 22:23, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
 * A good point though, MT articles don't tend to list the production dates within the casting tables. Can see how this could appear confusing so will edit these out, especially since all the production dates are there already in prose.Mark E (talk) 22:28, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Instrumentation
Does anybody have access to the instrumentation for Hamilton? It should definitely be included in the article, in my opinion. Anyone with a program can that--I might have access to one soon.Rev. Cory A. Parkinson, Composer (ASCAP), Conductor, Pianist/Vocalist, Musicologist, Minister &#38; Film Critic (talk) 01:03, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I would be inclined to disagree about full instrumentation being included in the article. It is very production specific and probably WP:TOOMUCH, and doesn't fall into the WP:MT guidelines. There is nothing revolutionary about the orchestrations for Hamilton Mark E (talk) 15:47, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 August 2017
sorry to disturb your wonderful page but it doesn't actually include Samuel Seabury or John Adams in the cast and I was wondering who they were played by, could you please include that? -Angelica.S AngelicaSchulyer (talk) 21:18, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: We can't include cast members if the requestor does not know what role they played. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 21:41, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Samuel Seabury was played by Thayne Jasperson. John Adams isn't a character. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CoffeePro567 (talk • contribs) 20:29, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Update Chicago Dates
In the Chicago production section, the statement "It is currently booking through April 29, 2018." should be updated to "It is currently booking through September 2, 2018." with this citation from the Chicago Tribune. Danielanewman (talk) 16:21, 21 December 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅. Thank you for this.  City O f  Silver  17:18, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 March 2018
The content within the "sypnopsis" section in this entry is not a synopsis, it is an obnoxiously long plot description. This does not serve its purpose. As such, may I request the following edits please?

Edit 1: Please remove the current content under the section header "synopsis" and replace it with an actual synopsis. Edit 2: Please add a new section beneath the updated synopsis section with the header "Full Plot Breakdown" and paste the orginal contened removed as part of Edit 1 above.

Alternative request: I am not familiar with "Hamilton" the musical so cannot provide an alternative synopsis to assist with requested Edit 1 above. I recognise it may sound unreasonable to request an edit of this type without alternative content to propose. If anyone is prepeared to edit on my behalf, but also cannot/will not be able to provide an actual synopsis, could they please change the section title "synopsis" to "Plot Breakdown" or something similar.

Many thanks. Justletmewrite (talk) 20:41, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template., while I agree that the current content does not meet the definition of "synopsis" in the slightest, the large changes requested are outside the scope of simple edit requests.  A separate discussion is necessary for establishing the consensus of interested editors as to what the content of this section should be.  I will create such a discussion here soon and I invite you to express your opinion there.  Thank you for bringing this t attention.  Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:49, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

"Synopsis"
As points out above, the "Synopsis" section is nothing of the sort, running to over 2,000 words in its current form and substantially cited to just one source: the soundtrack album. I suppose we could change the section title to "Detailed plot outline with the significance of each and every song expounded upon," but while accurate, it seems a bit unwieldy. The language is also exceedingly theatrical  and overblown. Since every song is already listed in the "Musical number" section, only the most important plot points need summarizing. It would be logical to only include the plot points surrounding the notable songs (that is, songs that have their own articles). I suggest reducing the text to the following:

The play has two acts, telling Hamilton's story through major events:

Act I
The musical begins with the company summarizing Alexander Hamilton's early life as an orphan in the Caribbean ("Alexander Hamilton"). After arriving in New York in 1776, Hamilton meets John Laurens, the Marquis de Lafayette, and Hercules Mulligan and impresses them with his rhetorical skills ("My Shot"). They affirm their revolutionary goals to each other ("The Story of Tonight"). Angelica, Eliza, and Peggy are then introduced ("The Schuyler Sisters"). King George then insists on his authority ("You'll Be Back"). During the New York and New Jersey campaign Hamilton accepts a position as George Washington's aide-de-camp ("Right Hand Man") instead of field command.

Hamilton marries Eliza Schuyler ("Helpless") as her sister Angelica suppresses her feelings for the sake of their happiness ("Satisfied"). Hamilton and Burr have a discussion and Burr then reflects on Hamilton's swift rise while considering his own career ("Wait For It").

Hamilton's friend Laurens duels General Charles Lee, with Hamilton and Burr as their seconds. Laurens injures Lee and Lee yields ("Ten Duel Commandments"). Hamilton is temporarily suspended by Washington over the duel but recalled to help plan the final Siege of Yorktown ("Yorktown (The World Turned Upside Down)").

Soon after the victory at Yorktown, Hamilton's son Philip is born, while Burr has a daughter, Theodosia ("Dear Theodosia"). Hamilton receives word that Laurens has been killed in a seemingly pointless battle (the Battle of the Combahee River) and throws himself into his work. ("Tomorrow There'll Be More of Us").

Act II
In 1789, Thomas Jefferson and Hamilton debate the merits of Hamilton's financial plans during a Cabinet meeting. Washington pulls Hamilton aside, and tells him to figure out a compromise to win over Congress ("Cabinet Battle #1").

While working on this compromise Hamilton begins an affair with Maria Reynolds, making him vulnerable to her husband's blackmail ("Say No To This"). Hamilton, Jefferson and James Madison create the Compromise of 1790 over a private dinner exchanging Hamilton's financial plan for placing the country's permanent capital on the Potomac River. Burr is envious of Hamilton's sway in the government and wishes he had similar power ("The Room Where It Happens").

In another Cabinet meeting, Jefferson and Hamilton argue over whether the United States should assist France in its conflict with Britain. Washington ultimately agrees with Hamilton's argument for remaining neutral ("Cabinet Battle #2"). Washington decides to retire from the presidency and Hamilton assists in writing a farewell address ("One Last Time").

John Adams becomes the second President and fires Hamilton, who publishes an inflammatory critique of the new president as a response ("The Adams Administration"). Hamilton's affair with Reynolds becomes public ("The Reynolds Pamphlet"). Philip dies at age 19 in a duel with George Eacker causing a reconciliation between Alexander and Eliza ("It's Quiet Uptown").

The presidential election of 1800 results in further animosity between Hamilton and Burr. Burr challenges Hamilton to a duel via an exchange of letters ("Your Obedient Servant"). Hamilton dies with his wife and Angelica at his side. Burr laments that even though he survived, he is cursed to be the villain who killed Alexander Hamilton ("The World Was Wide Enough"). The close of the musical is a reflection on historical memory and "Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Tells Your Story".

This is and admitted and intentional chainsawing of the present text, being about a 70% reduction in length and eliminating most of the WP:FLOWERY language. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:26, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Support

 * 1) As proposer Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:26, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * 2) ITSQUIETUPTOWN   talk • contribs 03:13, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * 3) Yeah. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:54, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Other

 * Is there a word limit on musical plot as with WP:FILMPLOT? AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 22:57, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I think it makes sense to apply a similar limit. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:53, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Seeing as how this has gone now 55 days without objection, I'll be making the change soon. Thank you to everyone. for their opinions. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:59, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The first paragraph of the Synopsis seems to state that Peggy Schuyler is a former U.S. president. I see what they're trying to do there but it could probably be structured in a way to avoid this ambiguity. Murphlab (talk) 17:18, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2018
"First Burn" should be added to the Hamildrops section, as it is May's release. Jwright0143 (talk) 18:37, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:38, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 May 2018
I have written a whole assignment on Hamilton for my music class that needs a wikipedia edit as the main part of the assessment. Is there any way I can do it myself without going through this process? If not, can these changes please be made: Please make a new section under 'Concept' as 9.4 entitled 'Female Representation and Empowerment'. Please have this within the section:

The casting of Hamilton has also demonstrated a difference from usual Broadway stereotypes not only in multi-ethnic cast, but the inclusion and celebration of the women who built the country alongside the men Since the 1950’s, musicals have moved to be attended by a majority female audience and although at times the women of Hamilton fade into a domestic sphere where their only focus on their romantic endeavors the women of Hamilton are represented as smart and multi-faceted. Even simply the celebration and representation of these women empowers the young girls, especially those of color, in the audience. NatalieEgan (talk) 11:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * If you want to make large changes to this article, you will be able to do so after making 10 edits across the project and waiting until Tuesday. As far as the specific change, some of the language (the celebration and representation of these women empowers the young girls, especially those of color) doesn't have an encyclopedic tone. power~enwiki ( π,  ν ) 23:13, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 May 2018
I have written a whole assignment on Hamilton for my music class that needs a wikipedia edit and is due on MONDAY 21ST MAY. PLEASE make these small changes (thank-you):

Under 'Casting Diversity' please include this at the end of the paragraph:

The casting of Hamilton has also demonstrated a difference from usual Broadway stereotypes not only in multi-ethnic cast, but the inclusion and celebration of the women who built the country alongside the men. Since the 1950’s, musicals have been attended by a majority female audience and although at times the women of Hamilton fade into a domestic sphere where their only focus on their romantic endeavours the women of Hamilton are represented as smart and multi-faceted.

Please include this sentence under 'Critical Analysis and Scholarship', at the end of the second paragraph:

The inclusion of women within the production, especially as women of color provides an empowerment to audiences around the world, and an impact upon future Broadway and musical productions. NatalieEgan (talk) 00:02, 19 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done:. Thanks for your interest in fleshing out the article. The text you propose adding needs significant copyediting for grammar and punctuation. More importantly, some of the sourcing seems weak. For instance, while the "provides and empowerment" bit may well be true, it should be explicitly attributed instead of being stated in Wikipedia's voice, and it's not clear that the source you've cited is an authority on the topic. Feel free to make changes and resubmit this request, but please note that Wikipedia cannot take into account any course deadlines or other requirements when determining whether to add content to an article. Rivertorch FIREWATER  07:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

I have written a whole assignment on Hamilton for my music class that needs a wikipedia edit PLEASE make these small changes (thank-you):

Under 'Casting Diversity' please include this sentence at the end of the paragraph:

The casting of Hamilton has also demonstrated a difference from usual Broadway stereotypes not only through a multi-ethnic cast, but in the inclusion and celebration of the women who built the country alongside America's Founding Fathers. .

Please include these two sentences under 'Critical Analysis and Scholarship', at the end of the second paragraph:

Since the 1950’s, musicals have been attended by a majority female audience, and although at times the women of Hamilton fade into a domestic sphere where they focus solely on their romances , they are still depicted as multi-faceted and powerful. The inclusion of Hamilton's leading female characters, according to the cast themselves, is empowering for women and women of color in their audience and across the world. NatalieEgan (talk) 23:40, 19 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Pictogram voting comment.svg Note: I have reverted your revised request because you had deleted some of what you wrote in the first place, which was confusing because it made my reply look nonsensical. I've added your revised request above and am reopening the edit request without prejudice for a different editor to evaluate. Rivertorch FIREWATER  04:53, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: I'm no theatre expert but as Rivertorch noted, with the exception of the New Yorker piece, the sources you cite don't seem to meet the criteria we use here. I can't find a reason to believe the authors of the other 3, which are essentially user generated/self published pieces, are considered experts whose opinions we would want to collect.

Hopefully your assignment was considered completed. Cannolis (talk) 20:50, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Historical Accuracy: I'll include this here, since I don't see a better place for it. I understand, of course, that Mr. Miranda wanted to make a political statement regarding immigration...as evidenced by the line "Immigrants! We get the job done!" But the fact is that Alexander Hamilton was never an immigrant. Hamilton was born in Nevis, a British possession at the time, so he was born a British citizen. He later moved to New York, which was also a British possession at the time. So Alexander Hamilton, a British citizen, merely moved from one location on "British soil" to another. And this would not make him an "immigrant" any more than Mr. Miranda would be if he moved from New York (the state in which he was born) to California.

Add San Francisco production that opens Feb 2019
SHN just announced tickets for the first seven months go on sale to the public Monday, October 22. Stellasteve2332 (talk) 02:08, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

Edit summary
I got a big riled up, sorry for the edit summary Wjrz nj forecast (talk) 02:29, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Critical Response section
The Critical Response section seems terribly remiss -- only seven reviews mentioned, and a couple of those are from academic or financial sources? And why are we including a review from the New York Post, a sensationalist right-wing tabloid rag almost as bad as the UK's Daily Mail. Is this the best mix y'all could come up with for the most talked-about musical in several decades? Softlavender (talk) 11:23, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Only left wing rags like the New York Times should be used? Got it. Not to mention the fact that Alexander Hamilton founded the New York Post, that might have something to do with it.2601:405:4A00:75F0:BC58:9E6:F9B4:A6E8 (talk) 02:11, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Rupert Murdoch did not acquire The New York Post until 1976, which was 192 years after it was founded by Hamilton. Softlavender (talk) 04:34, 8 July 2020 (UTC)


 * And what is with the quote "other people had to point out to me the frequent hat-tips to hip-hop"? The foundation of the entire musical is hip-hop! Why is Wikipedia quoting such clueless reviewers? Softlavender (talk) 04:30, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Weird Al in Parody
Should this not be mentioned in the Parody section.

I feel it has been more than adiquitly established through Weird Al Yankovic's career that he makes Parody music. As such it only seems correct to make some proper reference to this.

Tdk0bob (talk) 04:10, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * , "The Hamilton Polka" can be mentioned in that section, but it should not referenced directly to the YouTube. Go find the secondary news coverage of the production or use the same information from that article section. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 21:26, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It's already in the Hamildrops section. I wouldn't be averse to a one-liner under parodies as well, but it shouldn't be given additional emphasis.
 * Does it violate WP:SELFREF to say something like "as noted in the Hamildrops section, above, Weird Al Yankovic produced a parody song and video based upon the play, with Miranda's blessing"? TJRC (talk) 21:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , since it's actually part of the Hamildrops as with other remix songs, it doesn't need to be listed in that parody section, but if you want it in there anyway you can write a sentence saying something like: "Weird Al" Yankovic's medley "The Hamilton Polka", released 2018, was one of the releases on Hamildrops and have it anchor referenced to the Hamildrops section. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 22:17, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll make that edit then. It seems wrong not to mention the most prominent parody in the Parodies section; especially in such a lengthy article, where readers may go to specific sections. TJRC (talk) 04:58, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Move proposal
I propose moving the page to "Hamilton: An American Musical". This would be a more correct name, and would also eliminate the need for the parenthetic "musical". --RaiBrown1204 (talk) 06:05, 24 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Is this to be a formal rename request as per WP:RM? AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 21:21, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

I think your proposal is valuable. Although it is not necessary, I believe it would make an effective title for the existing article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danielle Mayor (talk • contribs) 00:55, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Change Song Artist
I would like to propose the idea of switching the musical number artists from the character names to the actual singer/songwriters. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danielle Mayor (talk • contribs) 22:47, 27 July 2020 (UTC)


 * No, that won't work since there are multiple actors and actresses who portray the characters. The only case would be for the specific soundtrack article, not the main musical article. AngusWOOF  ( bark  •  sniff ) 04:29, 28 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I agree with Angus. This is an article about the musical itself, not the musical only as portrayed by its first cast.
 * If it were an article about the recording, having the singers' names would make sense; but not here. TJRC (talk) 04:57, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the feedback. I think I poorly explained my purpose in making this change. I proposed the idea of switching the character names to the original singer/songwriters (from the soundtrack). For example: the song, "Dear Theodosia" was written and sung by Lin-Manuel Miranda and Leslie Odom, Jr. I thought this would give acknowledgement to the original cast/songwriters/artists; however, I agree with both of your points. I appreciate your feedback.


 * If you are looking for those credits, there is an article about the recording, namely at Hamilton (album). In terms of the writing credits, those are indicated in the lead and infobox. BOVINEBOY 2008 01:21, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:03, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Lin Manuel Miranda White House Poetry Jam 2009.webm

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2020
Wholiveswhodies (talk) 19:51, 11 November 2020 (UTC) hello! noticed that the non-stop song description for act 1 was missing that it was the murder trial of levi weeks, and just wanted to add that, Wholiveswhodies.
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. &#8209;&#8209; El Hef  ( Meep? ) 20:45, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 December 2020
In 5.5, the final line should read "It is currently scheduled to reopen on May 15, 2021" - not 2029. Speckledpigeon (talk) 00:00, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Pupsterlove02  talk • contribs 16:13, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Add the Australian Cast to the Original Production Casts Table
I have compiled the list in the table below. The production hasn't quite opened yet but that is the announced cast.


 * Sorry, but I don't see why this should be added to the article. I'm not even sure that anything after the first US tour needs to be in here., do you have any thoughts? Drmies (talk) 01:18, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * If we add one country's premiere to the article, where do we stop? Personally, I would always include Broadway and West End productions, as the premiere English-language theatrical venues (and the Off-Broadway, if a production originated there before moving uptown), and probably the first US national tour, especially if there are notable cast members or carry-overs from the Broadway production, but that's about it, unless there are extenuating circumstances.  At a cursory glance, I don't see that here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:28, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * While generally only concept recordings, workshops, off-Broadway, Broadway and West End including revivals, and major US tours are included, articles for musicals such as Phantom and Wicked include original casts from other locations provided the musical was preformed in English. RaCJ1325 (talk) 23:29, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 February 2021
Please change to " url=https://blogs.loc.gov/loc/2018/05/linking-letters-with-lyrics-hamilton-songs-draw-on-original-library-documents/ " and remove. It seems like the original editor accidentally pasted the incorrect Wikipedia link instead of the Library of Congress link. Regards, 223.17.177.154 (talk) 04:23, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done, thanks! DanCherek (talk) 04:38, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2021
In the Awards and Honors area, the following need to be added at the end of the Original Broadway Production table, after the 2018 Kennedy Center Honors entry: Filmed version of Broadway production 2021 Golden Globe Awards   Best motion picture — musical or comedy  Nominated / Best actor motion picture — musical or comedy  Lin-Manuel Miranda  Nominated (see https://www.goldenglobes.com/winners-nominees) 2021 Critics Choice Awards  Best movie made for television  WON (see https://www.criticschoice.com/critics-choice-awards/) 2021 NAACP Image Awards   OUTSTANDING TELEVISION MOVIE, LIMITED–SERIES OR DRAMATIC SPECIAL   Nominated   / OUTSTANDING ACTOR IN A TELEVISION MOVIE, LIMITED–SERIES OR DRAMATIC SPECIAL  Daveed Diggs,  Leslie Odom, Jr.   NOMINATED

Under the Original West End Production, after the Olivier Awards entry, the following needs to be added: 2018 Evening Standard Awards    Ned Sherrin Award for Best Musical  WON  (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evening_Standard_Theatre_Awards) Michaelsdca (talk) 21:04, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I haven’t added the West End Production award at the Evening Standard Awards due to lack of sources. Ferkjl (talk) 14:09, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Anachronism list
Since many more people will learn American Revolutionary history watching this musical than will read about it, there should be a list of historical inaccuracies and anachronisms. I do not mean artistic choices such as the use of hip hop style, but things like the Wedding March at the wedding, which was composed long after Hamilton died. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:6D0D:7366:1B80:F234 (talk) 06:25, 6 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Most anachronism lists are trivia which is not encyclopedic. BOVINEBOY 2008 13:18, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah those are trivia. Please don't add this. RaCJ1325 (talk) 23:13, 17 December 2021 (UTC)