Talk:Hamilton Road Cemetery, Deal

Odds and Sods
This is an article in development, All and any advice and contributions are most welcome as I'm a bit of a noob :-) Kbaughan1 (talk) 15:02, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Message added from mjroots. Thanks for the advice. That'll keep me busy :-) Kbaughan1 (talk) 09:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC) "I note you are creating an article on a cemetery in Deal. For several references you give a Wikipedia article as a source. Unfortunately, Wikipedia cannot be used in this way per WP:RS. If the source is available in the Wikipedia article then that source should be quoted. If the source is offline and you do not have access to it then you shouldn't really use it because you cannot verify it yourself. Any questions please drop a message on my talk page. Mjroots (talk) 09:26, 29 September 2009 (UTC)"

Note to self. WP:CITE. :-) P.S. I'm putting it here to remind me to do it! 11:27, 29 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbaughan1 (talk • contribs)

The article has now appeared in a local newpaper in an abreviated format. See article "press Coverage" section for details. Kbaughan1 (talk) 13:15, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi, the Helpme tag isnt really for peer-review, according to someone on help IRC, try this WP:FEED! --Lcawte (talk) 16:30, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Next step is to link these page to other related articles as it's an orphan at present. Suggestions welcomed. Kbaughan1 (talk) 10:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the layout could be improved- in particular, the images tend to intrude into the text and particularly so in the lead. Although gallery format is fine in its place, I think some should be separate images. There are also perhaps too many images- the gravestones seem to be quite similar, don't convey much information, and perhaps could be reduced just to give the reader an impression. I'll let you know if anything else occurs to me. Cheers. Rodhull andemu  13:51, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Comments

There appears to be footage from 1918 of the burials of servicemen who died in the Zeebrugge Raid being buried in the St James's cemetery in Dover. See http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=76046 for details. I've added this to the External Links in the main article with a question mark and have made readers aware that it is not a certainty.

Thanks also to user User:Welsh for using AWB to clean up some typos and making some of the references more appropriate :-) I have, however, reverted the dates from US English format to British English to retain the use of ordinal numbers (e.g. 17th of April" instead of "17 April").Kbaughan1 (talk) 12:01, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Well done, User:LilHelpa on finding a repeated preposition in a clean up. You got me :-) Just don't tell my class, alright? Erm, also have to admit to changing the dates back to British English (ordinal) format (again). When all we've got is an incompetent government and a massive fiscal deficit, "correct" punctuation is all an Englishman has to cling to ;-) *Cue drum roll for National Anthem...* Kbaughan1 (talk) 22:53, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Contributions from relatives and family members of those interred in the Hamilton Road Cemetery
As a rule, these are very welcome indeed, and allow me to make sense and draw links between events and people, as well as giving really valuable background information. However, please remember that Wikipedia works on the principle of verifiable information, so please include not just facts, but also exactly where, with a proper reference and citation, members of the community can check should they want to.

Currently, any information on Charles Cotton (the train driver?) and verification of the full names of Mr P and Mrs L Harris would be appreciated :-) Also, it would be interesting to know if Mr and Mrs. Harris had any other children or grandchildren in 1940 apart from Lucy and Julia as one contributor states he is an ancestor...

Kbaughan1 (talk) 12:34, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

12/10/2010: An anonymous contributor has provided the following information:

''I am Charles Cotton's grandson and can confirm that he was killed by a German bomb whilst driving a schools class locomotive that was stationary in Deal Railway Station. He normally operated from Ramsgate Railway station and a plaque was unveiled in the station a few years ago recoding his death. Of interest his fireman on the day survived the attack as did the locomotive which continued in service for another 20 years or so.''

Can anyone help with verification, links to publically accessible records etc? Kbaughan1 (talk) 17:12, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

AWB and British English Dating Conventions
Apologies for the reversion. As explained, I've written the article, which is basically about an English cemetery, using British English date conventions using ordinal numbers. Some of the dates are taken directly from CWCG casualty reports and actual gravestones, and do not require conversion into American English. Any queries about grammatical convention, please email me on my krb13@canterbury.ac.uk university address, or use this talk page :-) Kbaughan1 (talk) 14:51, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Zeebrugge commemoration
This is covered in Zeebrugge Raid and the information should not appear in full here too, particularly as the final paragraph points out that this cemetery was not involved. I will consider how to make this change tidily, then replace the section by a link to the coresponding section in the ZR article with enough summary to provide context and check the links there to two casualties buried here. --Mirokado (talk) 23:16, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi Mirokado, that seems a logical 'move' to me. Thanks! Kbaughan1 (talk) 13:16, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Notable Axis Interments from the Battle of Britain (1940)
In my opinion there are several problems with this section and the following is meant to be constructive criticism. A significant part of the text, although interesting, covers aspects tangential to the subject of this article.

Although the rest of the crew of U5+DM are buried in Deal Cemetery a disproportionate amount of space is given to coverage of the aspects of the recovery, identification, burial and reburial of Leutnant Günther Mollenhauer who was never buried in Deal Cemetery. You might also want to check from primary sources which unit the crew belonged to. U5+DM does not appear to have been an aircraft from Kampfgeschwader 4 as the identification sign is incorrect and this unit was never equipped with the Dornier Do 17.

The article states: "The date of death of all four of the crew is wrongly listed on their graves as being the 12 and 15 November respectively. This is because the date used is the day they were found washed up on the beach." It is not possible to say that the date of death is wrong. At best the author can only say that the date of death was listed as the day the remains of the crew were washed up on the beach as nobody knows exactly when they died - not all aircrew perished immediately.

The article also states: "They are more unusual still, as the VDK specifically states that many of the burials in Cannock Chase consist of casualties from fallen combat aircraft and/or were washed ashore elsewhere,[59] making this unmoved burial an even rarer event." I don't believe that this is true. There is nothing unusual or rare about these burials. There are many other Axis aircrew buried in cemeteries around Great Britain (e.g. Brookwood; Thornaby-on-Tees) who were not moved since they had already been buried in an administered plot. The reason for not being moved is already stated quite clearly in the previous sentence in the article.

The paragraph "CWCG records indicate that there are less....." should be cut as the article has strayed way off subject.

The next paragraph starts with the grammatical orphan "Their bomber.....".

Why has the image of Cannock Chase German Military Cemetery been included here?

Why is bomber 5K+AR mentioned at the end of this section as it has no connection to Deal cemetery at all. Forscher scs (talk) 12:04, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Hamilton Road Cemetery, Deal. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130907154755/http://collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/index-e.html to http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/index-e.html
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/39801/DEAL%20CEMETERY
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/4004177/DEAL,%20MUNICIPAL%20BOROUGH
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.volksbund.de/kriegsgraeberstaette/cannock-chase.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 16:51, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

General criticism of style
I am inclined to trim out some of these less closely relevant details.Cloptonson (talk) 22:09, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The style of this article suits more a local history booklet or article than a more concisely put Wikipedia article.
 * Somewhat digressive in parts, going into explanations and where to find records. (The latter I would trim out.)
 * Some of pictures are not so germane to this cemetery and deserve editing out, especially those who already appear in other Wikipedia articles.
 * Content dominated by military and war-related graves to apparent exclusion of any notable civilians who might be buried here.
 * Much of the detail on World War II bombings of Deal could be subject of a Wikipedia article that could join the many articles here on cities bombed in that war.
 * I question the relevance of mentioning casualties in incidents who are not buried in Deal Cemetery.
 * Most if not all the 'Zeebrugge Remembered' section deserves deletion as a major digression.

Section on 'Cemetery Today'- ought to be checked and updated where needed
This section appears to have been written in about 2010 as it speaks of 'twenty one years since' the last military burial. It deserves after a decade a look over by someone who knows and sees it as we never know if some serviceman has been buried here in the intervening years or if anything has been done for the war graves. (Military funerals are given to ex=service personnel as well as serving ones.) I am aware he CWGC inspect their military war graves every 2=3 years in cycle and replace damaged headstones where deemed necessary.Cloptonson (talk) 08:08, 28 November 2020 (UTC)