Talk:Hand of God (art)

Congratulations
What an interesting and beautifully illustrated article. Well done Johnbod! 81.157.195.129 (talk) 17:24, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Johnbod (talk) 17:33, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Seconded, terrific job...Modernist (talk) 21:42, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

REDIRECT
I concur, bravo. Just to let you know I changed the "Manus Dei" redirect to point to this page as in the past it went to the Da Vinci code video game! Hard to believe but true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adkins (talk • contribs) 09:40, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Modern depictions of the Hand of God
Should discussion of depictions of the hand of God - literally, depicting God as only a hand descending from a cloud - in art and media of the 20-21st centuries go on this page? For example, in the political and philosophical comic strip Sinfest, God frequently interacts with characters, but the only part of His body that is shown is His hand emerging from a cloud.

New additions to hand of God page
The hand, sometimes including a portion of an arm, or ending about the wrist, is used to indicate the intervention in or approval of affairs on Earth by God, and sometimes as a subject in itself. - In both Jewish and Christian Art, the hand of God sometimes represents the illustration of biblical narratives.
 * Can one say that? It doesn't seem to just appear at random, but to indicate in those narratives "the intervention in or approval of affairs on Earth by God". All the Jewish examples seem to fit that comfortably. Btw, re: "In the Elijah Revives the Child of the Widow of Zarepheth wall painting, the hand of God descends from the heavens, in answer to Elijah’s prayers, and allows Elijah to revive the dead son (I Kings 17: 19-22)." - in Xtian theology it would be God who actually performs the miracle, as with all miracles, don't know the Jewish take. Also, is " the fifth and final hand of God reaches down Ezekiel and the restored nation of Israel" missing a "to" or something? Johnbod (talk) 10:03, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

It is an artistic metaphor that is generally not intended to indicate that a hand was physically present or seen at any subject depicted, and there are no examples of the Hand of God actually being seen in the Bible. -The hand of God is seen throughout the Hebrew Bible and is mentioned in NT.
 * As mentioned below, I distinguish uses of the hand from the placement, as my sources do (and the placement does not appear in early medieval art at all). I've removed "and there are no examples...", & the issue is better handled in the last para of the lead. Johnbod (talk) 10:03, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

The Hand is seen appearing from above in a fairly restricted number of narrative contexts, often in a blessing gesture, but sometimes performing an action. -The notion of the blessing gesture does not apply in Jewish material. Could you move this to Christian art section?
 * Qualified "blessing". Johnbod (talk) 10:03, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

The largest group of Jewish imagery from the ancient world, the 3rd century synagogue at Dura-Europas, has the hand of God in five different scenes, including the Sacrifice of Isaac,[3] and no doubt this was one of the many iconographic features taken over by Christian art from what seems to have been a vigorous tradition of Jewish narrative art. - I think this might be better suited for the opening paragraph of Christian art section. As you mentioned the introduction is getting wordy thanks to my new additions.
 * It seems odd to move the only comment on the relationship between the two traditions to just one of them. The Dura Europas synagogue also presumably derives from the same "vigorous tradition of Jewish narrative art", which is worth saying. Johnbod (talk) 10:03, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Here and elsewhere it often represents the bath Kol (literally "daughter of a voice") or voice of God, a use also taken over into Christian art. -This is a matter of scholarly interpretation. Though a lot of scholars say this, there are others who do not see the hand of God as representing the voice of God. I would prefer to take this out, or to introduce this idea by saying that according to some scholars...etc.
 * Added a note, to which please add refs. Johnbod (talk) 10:03, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

There are three occasions in the gospels when the voice of God is heard, and the hand often represents this in visual art.[7] Gertrud Schiller distinguishes three functions of the hand in Christian art: as symbol of either God's presence or the voice of God, or signifying God's acceptance of a sacrifice.[8] -I cross-referenced the hand of God in the NT wikipedia page and double checked all of their examples, and it turns out that the hand of God is seen by Jesus and Stephen several times in NT. I think this is a really important point and would be better served in the Christian art section.
 * All placement, no? Johnbod (talk) 10:03, 22 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Right, I had meant to post here explaining where I was coming from, but in the end restricted myself to some edit summaries which I see you've read. First thanks for your very useful additions. We have little enough on Jewish art, including no proper article at that link.  I'm happy to rework some specific passages you mention, but I think the broad layout of the sections is correct. In an encyclopedic article one needs to cover the main aspects of a subject in a sequence sort of descending in significance.  At the end of the day, there are only a handful of early or medieval Jewish hands in art, while there are tens of thousands in Christian art of the same period, and later icon traditions.  Given the percentage of likely survivals, the chronological precedence of Jewish examples is hard to assert with total confidence, & the time between the earliest actual survivals not large, though the article has always made clear the presumption that the motif was taken from Jewish to Christian art rather than the other way round.  I take it there is no great number of other Jewish examples not mentioned already - no doubt there are some.  A detailed example by example account of Dura & the other Jewish instances should not push all the Christian material to the bottom of the article.  The lead is fairly long to set out the range of material at the start, & gives Dura generous summary coverage. The Dura material might well be copied to the synagogue article btw. The two traditions seem rather closely related in fact - the form of the Bird Head motifs seem prima facie to derive from contemporary Xtian style rather than any iconographic tradition descending from Dura. I had thought of broadening the "Iconography" section to cover both religions, which might be a route forward, maybe preceded by quick summaries of the Jewish & Christian occurences. In general I'm reluctant to segregate the Jewish and Christian material as you seem to want, and I'm not happy conflating textual mentions of the Right hand of God as a placement with the visual motif of the hand by itself. It might be relevant to lump the two together in general discussions of anthropomorphic conceptions of the deity, but that is not our subject here, & in terms of strictly visual examples in art they seem different to me. I see we have Anthropomorphism in Kabbalah, which hasn't got very far, & maybe other more relevant articles. The references at Finger of God (Commandments), which I've just seen, seem more clearly relevant, & writing up from secondary sources would be useful. Perhaps also the "moving finger" writing The writing on the wall] in Daniel.  I presume you are coming at the subject somewhat from the literary perspective, which obviously I am not - no doubt there is a vast number of references in earlier Xtian literature, which I'm really happy to leave alone. I'll have a go at the specific points you make, & may make further comments on them here. Johnbod (talk) 14:15, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Adding Template:Bibleref links for the biblical references would be a good improvement, also tidying the refs as I did with one of them. Johnbod (talk) 14:21, 17 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I've made a couple of changes per above, & interspersed comments above. Since the relationship between at least Dura Europas & the early Xtian examples seems rather close, I prefer to keep taking the two traditions in tandem in the lead, but obviously not at the expense of accuracy. Let me know what you think. Again btw, the absence of the angel in the Binding of Isaac scenes at Dura and Beth Alpha, noted by Schapiro (n. 38, p. 314) & also found in early Xtian depictions, seems worth mentioning. Shapiro also has comments relevant to the above on the Bird's Head Haggadah (pp. 381-382). Are there other OT hand references so clearly intended literally as Ezekiel (2:9–10) "Then I looked, and I saw a hand stretched out to me. In it was a scroll, which he unrolled before me. On both sides of it were written words of lament and mourning and woe"? I suppose that's in a vision though.  Johnbod (talk) 10:03, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Disambiguation Page
I think a DAB is necessary to help navigate between this page, and two others: Hand_of_God_(TV_series) & The_hand_of_God I don't know how to to that and not don't time to learn at this moment but wanted to make a note.