Talk:Handa Island

Dubious
According to the article about the wolf, they were eradicated in Scotland by the 18th century. Maybe the poem is several hundred years older than the collection that contains it. 46.186.36.102 (talk) 23:43, 26 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, that makes sense. Its usually claimed that the last wolf in Sutherland was killed in 1700. The Book of Highland Minstrelsy is available online here: http://archive.org/details/bookofhighlandmi00ogilrich (page 251 for The Wolf of Ederachillis). It does seem to be a collection of older poems, though it doesn't actually specify how old they are.
 * Also see Sports and Pastimes of Scotland (1891) http://archive.org/details/sportspastimesof00fittrich. Page 40 features this poem, and says "It was in the reign of Mary, Queen of Scots, however, that the wolf-plague, which had been gradually coming to a crisis, spread unexampled devastation. The wolves, when pinched with hunger, ransacked churchyards, like the ghouls of Arabian romance, feasting on the newly- buried corpses which they unearthed. Along the tract of Ederachillis, on the north-west coast of Sutherlandshire, the inhabitants were constrained to transfer the burial of their dead to the adjacent rocky islet of Handa, in the sea, where the restless surge, breaking against the precipitous cliffs, preserved the inviolability of the humble selpulchres."
 * So probably more like the 16th century? --Vclaw (talk) 00:54, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Name
The name "Handa" would be better described as gaelicised Norse, rather than mixed Gaelic and Norse. The Norse name "Sanday" becomes Sanda. The initial "S" mutates to a silent "Sh" in Gaelic pronunciation when prefixed with "eilean" (island), but the current name is only the modified Norse element. Sanday derives from Sand (Norse: sand/sandy) + øy (Norse: island) i.e. sandy island, not island in a sandy river - I'm guessing that whoever came up with that derivation was assuming the name was Eilean (Gaelic: island) + Sand + å (Norse: river) Northern rocks 10:29, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 16 September 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus, therefore, not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me &#124; my contributions 09:11, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

– Per the Ordnance Survey, while this was disputed with Isle of Lewis; Oldany Island, Priest Island, Gruinard Island and Bottle Island are at those locations when "Island" is on the OS. A search for Handa, Scotland on Google throws up things calling it "Handa Island" or even "Isle of Handa". Even if "Handa Island" wasn't its name, the new title avoids the need to comma disambiguate it per WP:NATURAL. For Shuna at hatnote can be provided to Shuna (Slate Islands). Insh Island.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 09:18, 16 September 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 talk to me &#124; my contributions 16:33, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Handa, Scotland → Handa Island
 * Shuna, Loch Linnhe → Shuna Island
 * Insh, Slate Islands → Insh Island
 * Bernera, Lismore → Bernera Island


 * Support Rreagan007 (talk) 21:28, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Support, I've always heard it referred to as Handa Island, and that's what the SWT call it too. Grinner (talk) 12:21, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Adding Bernera Island, though that one is just "Bernera" on Google Maps, the intro already uses "Bernera Island".  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 14:23, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The current names are consistent with our established naming conventions as set out at WP:UKPLACE. We do not disambiguate islands by adding "Isle" or "Island". Oldany Island, Priest Island, Gruinard Island and Bottle Island are not comparable because in those cases "Island" is an integral part of the name. Note that island names ending in "-a" generally incorporate the Norse word for "island", thus Bernera, for example, means "Bjørn's island", so to rename it "Bernera Island" would be tautological. Similarly, "Insh" just means "island", so "Insh Island" would be nonsense. The Ordnance Survey is notorious for getting such names wrong, and cannot be taken as a reliable source. --Deskford (talk) 14:28, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
 * OK that's a good point and I'd be happy to see this closed without a move based on that point but there may be a case for WP:COMMONAME even if not correct, see List of redundant place names.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 10:11, 26 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 7 February 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover)  NNADI GOOD LUCK  ( Talk &#124; Contribs ) 16:06, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

– Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:WIAN (Ordnance Survey) tautological names are acceptable similar to Longa Island, Nave Island, Soyea Island, Sanda Island and Cara Island. As can be seen at User:Crouch, Swale/Island names/Table with respect to Longa Island is that all sources have the same presence/absence of "Island" apart from WP and Google Maps. On the 1st page of results for a Google search for Handa Scotland all but WP and Scotland Info Guide use "Handa Island" in the title and Scotland Info Guide uses "Isle of Handa" anyway. As noted in the previous discussion even the SWT calls it "Handa Island" and I'd note that the Handa Ferry calls it "Handa Island" as well along with many other tourist websites. The proposed titles are acceptable according to our established naming conventions such as WP:NATURAL which provides that an alternative name can be used even if its not ideal and WP:UKPLACE says to use "Placename" when possible but in this case "Handa Island" is "Placename" and we would use Handa Island, Scotland if disambiguation was still required. I would also point out that the OS uses just "Rona" for both and Hamish Haswell-Smith also uses just "Rona" for both North Rona (page 338) and South Rona (page 173) while acknowledging "North Rona" and "South Rona" as alternative names. But indeed we don't have North Rona at Rona, Outer Hebrides and South Rona at Rona, Inner Hebrides and while the use of natural disambiguation is arguable dubious, the best name would appear to be the proposed names anyway. Google Books results also show all but 1 result with "Island" capitalized in running text (ignoring one that has "handa" lower cased to but even that uses ALL CAPS at the beginning). WP:CRITERIA specifies that the title should be recognizable, "Handa Island" clearly is per the many sources that use that. Naturalness, "Handa Island" also clearly is given that many sources at least use this in the title even if they later drop it in text. Precision, avoids unnecessary disambiguation. Conciseness, the longer name is more concise that the artificially disambiguated title. Consistency, this brings is inline with most other places in the UK that use the OS name unless natural disambiguation is required like Newton-in-Bowland. WikiProject Scottish Islands/Islands by area notes that the Scottish islands book is usually used and even that as noted uses "Bernera Island" and acknowledges that the Loch Linnhe Shuna is sometimes called "Shuna Island". Note with respect to the fact that Shuna (Slate Islands) is also an island, "Shuna Island" has redirected to the Loch Linnhe one since November last year (by me) and "Bernera Island" has redirected to the Lismore one since September 2010 (by JBellis) and someone searching for these names with "Island" included is likely to be looking for these per WP:SMALLDETAILS similar to the fact that Berkshire is about a county in England but Berkshire County redirects to the American county with that name and Sandwell is about a district in England but Sandwell District is about a record label. If moved all that would be needed is to change the hatnotes from redirect to about. Per Renominating for deletion its usually recommended to wait at least 6 months for a new RM and in this case the last RM was closed over 16 months ago and addresses the previous objections of which 3 editors (including the nominator) supported but only 1 opposed.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:05, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Handa, Scotland → Handa Island
 * Shuna, Loch Linnhe → Shuna Island
 * Insh, Slate Islands → Insh Island
 * Bernera, Lismore → Bernera Island
 * Support. A Dictionary of British Place Names (2011), which I found on Oxford Reference, has listings for "Handa Island" and "Shuna (island)." Oxford has no online listings for Insh or Bernera. Looking at Crouch's page, there doesn't seem to any standard or logic as far as the island-versus-no-island question goes. As I see it, the main advantage of the proposed moves is that they remove the comma-region thing. This practice is not supported by any of the sources and appears to be a Wikipedia-only convention. Colin Gerhard (talk) 15:48, 8 February 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.