Talk:Handball (disambiguation)

Disambiguation
Exactly how popular is this American handball? I'm thinking we don't need a crude disambiguation page when the Olympic sport is mostly referenced instead. A Handball (disambiguation) page could be created instead, or we could just add a note at the top of handball (that includes content now at team handball) saying:


 * This article is about the Olympic sport. See also: American handball.

--Joy &#91;shallot&#93;   11:56, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * After reviewing the links once again and seeing that there are no objections, I did that. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93;   14:26, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Is team handball really that popular? I've only heard it associated with the Olympics.  American Handball, I believe, is played everywhere Raquetball is played; it's not as popular as that sport anymore, unfortunately.  Ah, well.  I used to play handball but can't find a game anymore, so perhaps it is on the verge of dead.  IMO field handball seems like a crude copy of soccer, and I don't really see the point. - justfred (22 January 2005)


 * You're an American, they don't play it in America. This does not mean it is not popular in the real world. By the way, you   only hear about soccer associated with olympics; it's not really that popular. Maybe the football section should lead to the gridiron game, and there could be a small mention about the "European game of soccer". Ignorant American idiot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.153.60.59 (talk • contribs) 22:39, 27 January 2009


 * Judging by the number and quality of links pointing to this page, it's not necessarily "popular" per se, but it is much more popular than any other handball out there. In other words - if someone looks for "handball", chances are that they are looking for this one, and the rest are on the disambiguation page (which is the first link of the article). --Joy &#91;shallot] 20:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

03:39, 24 April 2006 Niteowlneils m (moved Handball (disambiguation) to Handball: Too many uses of "handball" for any given one to get primary disambiguation)

22:23, 4 June 2006 Joy m (moved Handball to Handball (disambiguation): moved back, the previous move was not substantiated on talk, and IMHO is wrong because team handball is by far the most popular and known and primary)

I agree with this change. I had spent a couple of hours removing links to the old disambiguation page, all bar one of which should have gone to the handball page. We now have a much neater solution, with a proper disambiguation page here, and the links all going to the page intended. LeeG 23:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I just changed it back. Handball points here now. It is true that most of the links to handball should go to team handball, but not all of them: I have just changed about 25 articles to point directly to American handball rather than to handball (until recently, these linked incorrectly to team handball). Most of the 400 odd that are left should point to team handball, and hopefully instead of changing them all we can just point handball to team handball again. But before that happens, the rest of the handball links which should point other places need to be fixed. There are probably a couple left which should point to American handball, and more than a few which refer to soccer or rugby. Rracecarr 17:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I just reverted the change by 129.142.71.166, and made handball point here again, rather than to team handball. I still think there are some links to handball which don't refer to team handball.  Rracecarr 21:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So; lets get working (myself included) on correcting the links and go for the move.-Catneven 08:00, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Especially since -team- handball is just not the name of the sport described on that page.

American handball is just not the name of the sport described on that page. Adjectives are necessary for clarity. In my opinion it is not time yet to redirect handball to team handball. The very first link to handball I happened to check just now, Michael Long, should not go to team handball. Until all the false links are fixed, it makes sense to link to the disambig page, and let the user decide which is appropriate. Rracecarr 19:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I actually already changed the redirect before I popsted on the talk page:-s I stick with your opinion on the move for now. The links should first be fixed at least. About the naming convention; I still think we should use olympic naming for all olympic sports. which means -team-handball should be named handball. When I talk about the actual name of the sport, I assume a world audience. Just like American football may not be known as such in the USA, it is called just that by the fast majority of earth citizens. I think the same should go for the lesser visible sports....-Catneven 00:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I see your point. Maybe Team handball could be moved to Handball (Olympic sport), sort of in line with the naming of the Football (soccer) article. Rracecarr 13:35, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't hink we need to rape the Handball page by naming it "Team handball" (a name that nobody uses) instead of Handball just because some American users are too stupid to know about the existence of the game. We should only have a page titledd "Handball" with a disclaimer "this article is about the olympic sport. for other uses see 'handball (disambiguation)'". The way I see it, the only reason why we haven't, is that some American users (who happen to be in minority) are playing dicks, but why should the community give a rat's ass about what they think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.156.194.110 (talk • contribs) 23:21, 26 April 2010

Pachuco
Someone added this, does not seem encyclopedic to me: * Pachuco - a handball game played by elementary and middle school students where a small blue ball is thrown against a wall and must be caught by any other player. if it is dropped the player who incurred the infraction gets punched and kicked until he touches the wall with any part of his body. This is a real game! It was popular in the north-east san fernando valley and every school had a couple of kids who played it.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Justfred (talk • contribs) 07:41, 26 May 2006

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was not moved. --BDD (talk) 19:15, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

– Team Handball, being an Olympic sport of international significance, is by and large the most popular and most known form of handball, and thus satisfies WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Admittedly, this is the first time that I encounter the term "team handball" as a disambiguator. All other uses of the word are either local (minor national sports) or historical. I find it strange that I haven't found any previous RMs for this, and that my assertion hasn't been tested thus far; there was some discussion and back and forth moves/redirects above, but the context is unclear. Well, here we go now to find a consensus. No such user (talk) 09:42, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Handball → Handball (disambiguation)
 * Team Handball → Handball


 * Comment being an Olympic sport does not make a sport popular, several Olympic sports are highly obscure (like Modern Pentathlon). I've usually heard of this particular sport being called "European handball". And there's the soccer call handball that is also very common. So a redirect to the rules of soccer might also be considered as primary. (and such plays as the Hand of God) -- 70.24.247.127 (talk) 14:18, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose I see no diffs or proof that "Team Handball" is a primary topic produced. In fact, when I search in Google, it isn't the primary topic at all.  --HighKing (talk) 14:38, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Excuse me? When I counted results from first 10 pages of Google search, around 90 out of 100 refer to Team Handball. Are we looking at the same Google? No such user (talk) 20:39, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You're excused. Cos when I search, the first 10 pages of Google search returns pages relating to Gaelic handball.  Did you ever think that perhaps Google isn't the same for everyone?  --HighKing (talk) 17:10, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually I did. But I used Google.com, which would supposedly give U.S. bias, if anything, and Team Handball isn't popular there. You apparently used Google.ie, which gives it all to Gaelic handball. Not that I think that the Irish view isn't relevant, but it isn't worldwide either. Anyway, Joy below mentioned pws=0 parameter for the Google search, so I'll give it a try. No such user (talk) 09:06, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose - The very fact that there are so many potential uses of the term "handball" listed on the disambiguation page is sufficient proof (at least for me) that team handball is not the primary topic (or at least that it does not have sufficient primacy to be awarded exclusive use of the Handball page). – PeeJay 15:27, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That is pretty circular. Are you familiar with WP:PRIMARYTOPIC? The test for primacy is real-world notability, not the mere count. No such user (talk) 20:39, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Just because it is an Olympic sport does not necessarily automatically make it the most popular worldwide, or most significant, compared to other uses (e.g. "football" vs. "association football" and "skeleton" vs. "Skeleton (sport)"). Zzyzx11 (talk) 02:40, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. despite that Handball (soccer) is only a REDIRECT to Foul (association football) there's enough weight in sources to say that "Team Handball" is not WP:PRIMARY. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:34, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. An Olympic sport played throughout a lot of Europe versus a few local and children's version (though the sport is not popular in English-speaking nations). Googling from Australia would give predominance to the Aussie Rules technique which I am very familiar with whereas I know nothing about the sport but that doesn't give weight in sources. Crusoe8181 (talk) 08:50, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose I'd certainly argue against the nominator's claim that Team handball is "by and large the most popular and most known form of handball". That claim would more likely apply to Handball (school)/Four square and whatever else the game is known as in the rest of the world as it's played by just about every child. --AussieLegend ( ✉ ) 10:05, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Support I know I can't be the only one who's typed handball into the search bar and expected to end up straight on the article about the Olympic sport. The sport is very popular in several European countries, which is more than can be said for any of the other games with the same name. A Google search also shows it to be the primary topic for the search term "handball". BigDom (talk) 10:26, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * No such user, I don't think you've demonstrated WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Nevertheless, I would be inclined to support moving the disambiguation page away and making Handball a R with possibilities to team handball, which would have a hatnote. That way we will be able to get statistics of how many people arrive at the wrong place, while making sure all the internal links remain disambiguated. BTW please use the pws=0 parameter on Google searches. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 17:47, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, yeah, I failed to do the homework. I suppose I learned something. So, even though it's probably late, here are the necessary statistics below. No such user (talk) 09:43, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Handball is not team handball and is a sport in and of itself. The fact that team handball is an Olympic sport does not in any way diminish the fact that handball is a game that is more deserving of the primary name space.  Personally I have never heard of team handball before this discussion.  So, it may be known among Olympic enthusiasts, but that does not make a primary topic. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:54, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

Statistics

 * Page views for relevant Wikipedia articles for last 90 days (since Dec 24):
 * Handball: 33,237
 * Team Handball: 161,707
 * Gaelic handball: 9,759
 * American handball: 14,747
 * Australian handball: 1,994
 * Handball (soccer): 1,444
 * Handball (Australian_rules_football) 2,982
 * Special:Whatlinkshere (estimated by rough counting):
 * Handball: ~0 (Fixed by bot)
 * Team Handball: ~5000
 * Gaelic handball: ~520
 * American handball: ~120
 * Australian handball: 12
 * Handball (soccer): ~20
 * Handball (Australian_rules_football) ~60
 * Google search with pws=0: https://www.google.com/search?q=Handball&pws=0. First 10 pages, Wikipedia included. I admit I didn't count too carefully, but I get roughly:
 * Team Handball: ~89
 * Gaelic handball: ~4
 * American handball: ~5
 * Australian handball: ~2
 * Handball (soccer): ~0
 * Google books search: Tougher to estimate quickly, because it isn't obvious what many books are about. No such user (talk) 09:43, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Interwiki statistics

 * Another usually good measure of how popular or well known something is around the world is to count how many languages a topic has wikipedia articles on it. And Team Handball wins a count like this hands down:
 * Team handball 78 wikipedia languages
 * Beach handball 23 languages
 * Gaelic handball 10 languages
 * American handball 6 languages
 * Australian handball 1 language


 * Some other Olympic sports, in comparison:
 * Table tennis 78 languages
 * Ice hockey 72 languages
 * Water polo 68 languages
 * Synchronized swimming 45 languages
 * Modern pentathlon 44 languages

Based on this and the discussions above, it looks fair to say that team handball is much more popular and well known around the world than many people in English speaking countries think it is. --Shanes (talk) 10:30, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Discussion continued

 * I think the obvious graph similarity between "Handball" and "Team handball" incoming trafffic, and conversely the different pattern of traffic for American and Gaelic handball, supports the solution I suggested earlier - redirect it to presumed primary topic, and then we can revisit the issue after a month or so by comparing the number of clicks on the hatnote to the overall traffic - IOW analyzing the specific statistic that can void the presumption of primary topic. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 11:49, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with that, for what it's worth. No such user (talk) 13:31, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Team handball which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:28, 4 August 2013 (UTC)