Talk:Hands of Perón

October 16 edits
I've edited this significantly, for the following reasons:


 * Removing copyright violations. Many of the paragraphs in the original article were simply copied and pasted from the New York Times article. Those had to be removed immediately pursuant to Wikipedia's copyright policies.
 * Improving the narrative. Every language has its own conventions for narrative order. The original article may have made sense in Spanish, but to the English-speaking reader it was confusing and difficult to follow. I've put things roughly in chronological order, adding information the average non-Argentinian would need to know to understand what's going on (such as the fact that the judge was heading a criminal investigation and not an inquiry, which are completely different matters under the common law system that most native English speakers are familiar with).
 * Improving word choice. Bodies aren't "conserved" in modern English, and tombs aren't "profaned". Those are simply the wrong words. ("Conserve" is usually used to mean "to use less of", as in "to conserve energy", while "profane" isn't used as a verb in modern English. The adjective can be used in a religious sense ("a profane violation of the church", for instance", but its most common meaning is "foul-mouthed".)
 * Adding sources. Spanish-language sources are fine when there aren't adequate sources in English, but there are tons of sources in English. In addition, the sources given were merely news sources; they didn't reveal that there has been considerable academic interest in the loss of Peron's hands.

I've also moved it to "Hands of Perón", since his name has an accent. --NellieBly (talk) 17:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Why does this article even exist? It should be part of the main article about Perón. LargoLarry (talk) 20:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Merge with Juan Perón
I don't see any reason why there should be a separate article about the incident described in this article. I think the information about it should be included in the main article about Juan Perón. LargoLarry (talk) 20:22, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I certainly understand your doubt - when I began researching this, I had my doubts too. My first intention was to PROD the article or send it to AFD because it seemed like nothing other than a puff piece for the new book. Before doing that, though, I searched on Google News, Scholar, and Books, and found numerous reliable third-party sources that assert that the theft of the hands is considered a notable event in Argentinian politics in and of itself, separate from Peron's notability. Because of that, I believe that a separate article is appropriate, and I edited it to remove copyvio concerns and to add some of the sources I've found.


 * I've found three major books, two from reputable academic presses, that specifically discuss the dismemberment of Peron's hands and the action's relationship to Argentinian politics in depth. The third book, the one the article was originally written to promote, was originally published in Spanish at Argentina's largest and most prestigious press, although its English-language translation is less notable. If Lyman Johnson, one of the academic writers, is to be believed (I've ordered his book and another on inter-library loan and I hope to expand the article), the dismemberment was a pivotal event in Argentinian politics, marking the end of the cult of Peron *and* the tendency of Argentinians to see their leaders as religious figures. (There have also been numerous academic papers that have been published in Spanish-language academic journals discussing how Peron's dismemberment affected the cult of Peron. I don't read Spanish so I can't add them, but I'm hoping an editor who can might take up the torch, as it were.)


 * I sometimes think that we in North America wave away the reality of the "cult of Peron", because we think the word "cult" is being used in a colloquial sense - in the same way that a critic here could say the "cult of Twilight" or the "cult of secularity". It's nothing of the sort. Peron was a religious figure in Argentina as much as he was a political figure, and the loss of his hands made a huge difference in Argentina's political development and may have actually been the catalyst for political maturity in Argentina. As it is, I think this article is too short for what the symbolism of the loss of his hands really means for Argentina. --NellieBly (talk) 20:46, 30 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Disagree with the merging. As said, there are written books that deal specifically with this topics, such as "La Segunda Muerte" ("The second death") by David Cox and Damián Nabot, or "Las manos de Perón" ("The hands of Peron") by Adrian Bustos.


 * Having said that, there is no "cult" in Argentina towards Perón. His notoriously high good image, and the way it lasted for so long, can be perfectly explained by common political lectures. Those who consider him a dictator or a tyrant usually commit the mistake of analysing him in insolation: all the things he had done for the working class were good in themselves, but even more in comparison with previous governments. Before Peron, there were only governments working only for the good of the higher classes, or governments that wanted to help the lower ones (such as the radicals) but couldn't achieve much because of the forces opposing them. Thanks to Peron, huge sectors of the population that were living in poverty and excluded from political life, had suddenly their lifestyles improved: it's just a predictable result that Peron would develop there an almost unquestionable good image.


 * As for the way it lasted for so long, it was in a fashion the work of his own enemies. After being forced to leave the country and go into exile, he became a symbol for all those who wanted a political change and were disgusted with current governments, not much unlike Ferdinand VII in Spain during the Peninsular War. But, unlike the "desired", Peron died shortly after returning to power, so if people's expectations were excesive, they did not had the chance to find out.


 * The cut of his hands was not a turning point in in people's image of Peron. If it proved that he was just a human being like any other, such a point was made much more stongly before by Evita, whose body would suffer much awful fates than this one. MBelgrano (talk) 23:08, 31 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose This seems significant enough to remain as its own article. Indeed as NeelieBly says, "...this article is too short for what the... ...loss of his hands really means for Argentina." I strongly agree! Editors should contribute to improve the page rather than nominating it for merger(unless in cases where a page is unsalvageable). Outback the koala (talk) 05:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree as well. I think this article defends its right to exist. /Julle (talk) 06:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Date
According to this article and this one, the tomb was broken into on June 10th. I don't have access to the current source to check why it says it was on the 23rd. Should we at least mention the two possibilities? 152.171.77.205 (talk) 01:36, 15 June 2020 (UTC)