Talk:Hanfu/Archive 2

More sources needed
I was wondering if anyone has more sources which could be used to develop the following section:


 * Six dynasties (also known as Wei, Jin, Northern and Southern dynasties)


 * Sui dynasty

Side note: I am adding as much info that I can found from English sources; but in all transparency, I feel that those info should be double-checked with their corresponding Chinese sources, if possible.

For example, gown and robe has been used in English literature and scholarly journals and books, but it could also be "Shenyi" or "Paofu" if written in Chinese literature. Because of that, I tried to keep the terms used as closely as I could find it in English literature, e.g. I kept it as Shenyi and Paofu whenever the authors call it as such.
 * My Chinese is not high enough for academic papers, which is why I favour english sources, I am sorry that this is the limit of my contribution to this Wikipedia page.

There are a lot of Chinese articles which talk about Han Chinese clothing but are unfortunately not available in English; the database that I know of and which is open accessed is the following :
 * http://www.cnsilk.cn/en/ (while the full-text tends to be in Chinese, the abstracts are usually in English).

Thank you for all your dedication and hard work,

Aklys Erida Aklys Erida (talk) 03:32, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 February 2021
add them on Ming dynasty's section after the paragraph for Vietnamese clothing influenced by Ming

there's a paper about this topic https://iahs.fudan.edu.cn/swfupload/uploadfiles/file/%E8%A1%A3%E5%86%A0%E4%B8%8E%E8%AE%A4%E5%90%8C_%E6%98%8E%E5%88%9D%E6%9C%9D%E9%B2%9C%E5%8D%8A%E5%B2%9B%E8%A2%AD%E7%94%A8_%E5%A4%A7%E6%98%8E%E8%A1%A3%E5%86%A0_%E5%8E%86%E7%A8%8B%E5%88%9D%E6%8E%A2_%E5%BC%A0%E4%BD%B3.pdf written by 张佳 Zhangjia，FuDan university Chinese literature Academy research fellow 复旦大学文史研究院副研究员

Korean Hanbok was greatly influenced by the Great Ming, according to the History of Ming, Taejo of Joseon had sent requests to Nanjing serval times for changing the nation's title into Joseon.闻皇太子薨，遣使表慰，并请更国号，帝命仍古号曰朝鲜. February of 1402 Jianwen Emperor sent Pan wenkui and other government officials to grant the kingdom sets of official headwears and clothing. Joseon as the vassal state of Ming, Taejo of Joseon received the title of the vassal prince(亲王), with the status of Ealdorman(郡王).''帝遣鸿胪寺行人潘文奎来赐王冕服，其敕书曰: “敕朝鲜国王李芳远：日者陪臣来朝，屡以冕服为请，事下有司. 稽诸古制，以为四夷之国，虽大曰子. 且朝鲜本郡王爵，宜赐以五章或七章服. 朕惟春秋之义，远人能自进于中国，则中国之. 今朝鲜固远郡也，而能自进于礼义，不得待以子、男礼. 且其地逖在海外，非恃中国之宠数，则无以令其臣民. 兹特命赐以亲王九章之服，遣使者往谕朕意'' The year of 1403(永乐元年), Joseon sent more requests for literature and clothing for royal families from Ming and had shown the wish to learn, inheritance Ming's etiquettes. ''嘉其能慕中国礼，赐金印、诰命、冕服九章、圭玉、珮玉，妃珠翠七翟冠、霞帔、金坠，及经籍彩币表里.  为中国之番邦，故历代亲信于中国，受封爵，朝贡不绝，礼仪之道不缺，衣冠制度，悉同于中国各代之制，故曰 written by Xu JuZheng (서거정) ,蓋我朝鮮地雖海外，衣冠文物悉同中國''written by Choe Bu (崔溥/최부, 1454–1504), the two Joseon officals stated they had adapted Ming's political system, style of etiquette, crown rituals and absorbed other cultural aspects due to the relationships, trades, cultural exchange with the Great Ming.

these links are portraits of hanbok and hanfu in Ming, you can clearly see the similarity Ming's Aoqun Joseon women's clothing

Ottopaappa (talk) 20:29, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. h 09:29, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

why not put korean hanbok in joseon period being strongly influenced by Ming if Vietnamese contents are there? (ming dynasty section) hanbok wore by the officials during early Joseon to mid Joseon were originated from Ming, they received them through diplomatic trips, the sources I entered are all traceable and fact, some of the original documents are now stored in US, one of them is now kept in Harvard university. so its not influenced, its copy, exactly the same '衣冠制度，悉同于中国各代之制，故曰', and the current hanbok is obviously arranged from these Ming clothing in Joseon, it is most obvious for males hanbok as what the king wears and other courts clothings still remain the same until the end of Joseon dynasty. there's many black and white pictures taken by foreigners as evidence. match perfectly with court clothing for male in Ming(because yes they had to wear as a vassal state to ming, even after ming's collapse and they still kept the outfits until the Japanese arrived)

Diplomatic documents clearly stated they sent officials to Ming begged the emperor to grant them Ming-style of clothing(赐服), headwear and other things, I also named two person who are Korean, working for the joseon at that time, written many sentences indicate court style clothing for officials and the royal family were the same as Ming's, because its what they supposed to wear as the vassal state to Ming, such styles evolved to the current hanbok when Ming collapsed and Qin took over mainland China. for the court style clothing(官服）, it still remained the same as Ming's, the king wears Mangfu 蟒服（equvilant to crown prince in Ming) it has 4 claws, different to the Pao Ming's emperor wears(dragon, 5 claws) my sources are not only written by chinese, there's written by Korean as well, but as everyone knows, its in Chinese characters, so i put zh as the language (they were still using hanja/chinese words until one king invented Korean letters we know nowaday) this is my explanation why the sources are all in 'chinese'.

Ottopaappa (talk) 20:17, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2021
Remove: Hanfu influenced the traditional clothing of many neighbouring cultures, such as Korean Hanbok

Hanbok was not influenced by Hanfu. Please remove the line to show correct information.

Evidence as below:

The hanbok can be traced back to the Three Kingdoms of Korea period source: Myeong-Jong, Yoo (2005). 《The Discovery of Korea: History-Nature-Cultural Heritages-Art-Tradition-Cities》. Discovery Media. P123 Macdonald, Fiona, ed. (2004). Peoples of Eastern Asia. Marshall Cavendish. p. 366. Lee, Samuel Songhoon (2015). Hanbok: Timeless Fashion Tradition. Seoul Selection. Korean Culture and Information Service (South Korea) (2014). Guide to Korean Culture: Korea's cultural heritage. p. 90.

Early forms of Hanbok can be seen in the art of Goguryeo tomb murals in the same period. source: Korean Culture and Information Service (South Korea) (2014). Guide to Korean Culture: Korea's cultural heritage. 길잡이미디어. p. 90. Condra, Jill, ed. (2008). The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Clothing Through World History, Volume II. Greenwood Publishing Group. p. 223. Nelson, 1993, p.7 & p.213-214


 * The Greenwood encyclopedia actually states that the hanbok was influenced by Chinese style, and the the tomb murals have a Chinese art aesthetic. The other source you provided says that by 648 Mandarin robes were used by royalty in Korea as well. I don't think that source is enough to overturn the current wording. The lead says it influenced the design of the hanbok, not preceded or originated it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:03, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:40, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Anthropomorphic jade figurines of Shang dynasty from Fuhao Tomb.jpg
 * Buyao Flower.jpg
 * China's Northern Dynasties' pottery figurine.jpg
 * Han dynasty wooden figurines 2.jpg
 * Hang dynasty wooden figurine.jpg
 * Male figure from Tomb 2, Chang-t'ai-kuan, Hsing-yang District, Henan.jpg
 * Man wearing shanqun featured in the bronze armed warrior holding up chime bells.png
 * Ming dynasty Wu Liang Guan.png
 * Reverse replica of the crown of Empress Xiao.png
 * Sui dynasty Flower Crown.jpg

Too long
The article is very detailed and well written, thank you for the massive improvement. A problem though -- the article is now well above the recommended readable size. It is among the top 200 longest articles of Wikipedia and if we exclude lists then it may well be within the top 50. And some sections (for example the history) are already so complex that it may be difficult for readers without sufficient existing knowledge on the subject to follow through.

If more substantial edits are on the way, perhaps consider splitting off some of the sections? The sections for each dynasties, for example, already appears long enough to be their own articles as "Clothing in XX dynasty" or "Fashion in XX dynasty". Esiymbro (talk) 07:58, 6 April 2021 (UTC)


 * If this is ok with you, I will edit the article, I think that there is a few sections which could be merged with other hanfu pages (e.g. list of Hanfu, ruqun, etc.). At the same time, I will start removing duplicates from the history section. Maybe create a few more wikipedia pages...?


 * Hi both, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I don't mind it at all. I am very busy these days, so I will only have time to do small edits., please feel free do so :) Thank you for your hard work to both of you AE Aklys Erida (talk) 12:43, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:40, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Tang Dynasty, sancai pottery, woman figurine.JPG

Strayacj
Both Hanfu and Xianbei clothing influenced Korean clothing. Xianbei influence is not a valid excuse to remove the content here. Esiymbro (talk) 10:36, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

any sources? The origin of official costumes is not Hanfu, the costume of the Han Chinese. It is clear that Korean royal official costumes in the past were influenced by China, such as the Tang and Ming Dynasty, but Hanbok does not mean official costumes and you have to distinguish between official and casual clothing. In addition, official costumes are not the origins of the Han Chinese, but the Xianbei. Hanfu was only the clothes of the people of the Han Dynasty, or it was to distinguish between the costumes of other ethnic groups and the costumes of the Han Chinese.


 * 1) No one here is saying that Korean costumes originated from Hanfu, but that they are influenced by it.
 * 2) Have you actually read the content you reverted? If that is not enough, there are dozens of sourced statements on Hanfu influence on Hanbok at the article Hanbok and other related articles. The burden is on you to find sources to support your own history revisionist claim that Hanfu did not have any influence whatsoever on Hanbok. Esiymbro (talk) 11:20, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Please present it based on historical records. And since culture is interacting with each other, it cannot be said that Hanfu necessarily influenced Hanbok. Again, the concept of hanbok is not official clothes, but casual clothes. The concept of Hanfu also means the clothes worn by the people of Han Dynasty, and Hanfu was also influenced by the costumes of various ethnic groups. If so, how would you explain that Goryeo's hanbok influenced Hanfu of the late Yuan Dynasty and the early Ming Dynasty? 可以拿过来历史文献上的记载啊

- 结赞以羌、浑众屯潘口，傍青石岭，三分其兵趋陇、汧阳间，连营数十里，中军距凤翔一舍，诡汉服，号邢君牙兵，入吴山、宝鸡，焚聚落，略畜牧、丁壮，杀老孺，断手剔目，乃去. 《新唐书》

- 漢裳蠻，本漢人部種，在鐵橋. 惟以朝霞纏頭，餘尚同漢服 《新唐书》 Strayacj (talk) 11:52, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

It appears that this discussion is origins vs influences. The Xianbei influence and contribution is important in the development of Han Chinese identity and Han Chinese clothing; content should not be removed just because some clothing were initially introduced by other ethnics.
 * 1)  Ethnically speaking, the Xianbei and the Han dynasty Chinese were indeed different. However, the Xianbei and other nomadic groups which entered China during the Sixteen dynasties period became "Han people" after more than 100 years. According to Charles Holcombe, "Many descendants of the Xianbei and of the other non-Chinese groups who had ruled north China from 304 until 581 had lost their separate identities and simply became Chinese during the Tang era. The term 'Han,' which had first begun to be used as an ethnic label to distinguish the conquered subject population ruled by the Xianbei elites during the Northern Wei Dynasty, came to refer to all of the people of the Tang dynasty."

The royal courts in Korea introduced Chinese court clothing, which may explain why some Koreans do not seem to perceive those clothing as Hanbok but rather dubbed them as Gwanbok. However, some clothing which was originally (or hypothesized to have been) of Chinese origins are still considered as Hanbok nowadays.

For Hanfu, this is different because court, official, casual and commoner clothing can be considered Han Chinese. The Court official clothing of the Han Chinese ruled dynasties can be considered as Hanfu because it diverted from its initial Xianbei origins.
 * 1) The court official clothing (i.e. the one with round collars) designed by the Imperial court of Han Chinese ruled dynasties has both the influences of the Xianbei and the Chinese.
 * 2) The Xianbei contributed by introducing the round collared robe with tight sleeves as an outerwear in the Central plains; this in turn provided the court official's robe basic shape (i.e. round collar).
 * 3) The Han Chinese contributed by turning a round-collared robe into an official robe which adheres to a strict hierarchichal system and societal norms: developing the clothing systems for officials through imperial edicts, regulating the colours based on social ranking (品色服), adding social ranking badges in some dynasties. The round collared robes evolved with time in China to the point that they are structurally different from those initially introduced by the Xianbei (e.g. loose sleeves, wide and large sleeves, pipa sleeves depending on the time period; decorations and colour system to indicate ranks). Those structural changes and the implementation of a clothing system are Chinese innovations, designed by the Han Chinese.

On the influence of Goryeo hanbok on Hanfu during late Yuan and early Ming. The term Goryeoyang was dubbed in the late Yuan dynasty, it means "Goryeo style" but it can be a lot of things, including Goryeoyang clothing. This subject however does not seem to be widely studied in English sources (it is very hard to come across some sources). Most research/books talk about the influence of Mongol fashion in Yuan on the Chinese, not Goryeo. Some sources talk vaguely on the popularity of Goryeoyang in the Mongol Court but not much outside the court; they do not discuss the influence on Han Chinese clothing (Mongol were different from the Han; their clothing were also different; in Yuan, Han Chinese could wear Mongol or Han clothing); moreover, there is not much information on the description/ appearance of Goryeoyang-fashion.

In conclusion, more research should be done to understand the extent of Korean influence on Hanfu whether it is from Goryeo or Joseon. Perhaps more research can be found in Korean or Chinese sources, but in English, it is very limited. On the other hand, most (if not all) English sources cited in this article clearly states than Hanbok was influenced by [Han] Chinese clothing. They do not use the term Gwanbok. BTW The term hanfu means Han Chinese clothing, not Han dynasty clothing. Gyuligula2 (talk) 04:08, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * 1) There is one study in English by Kim et al (2015) ; the authors says that the Goryeoyang female clothing was common in the court (i.e. Mongol court) because there were many Goryeo women who served. The Goryeoyang clothing was found in the court dress (i.e. Mongol court) at the end of Yuan court (Empress Gi only became first empresses in 1365 and Yuan ended in 1368). The authors clearly says that it is a square-collared (banryeong) banbi (half-sleeves) (方領過腰半臂) which was short compared to the ones worn by the Mongols which were long and narrow. The authors also added a modern interpretation of Goryeoyang clothing in the paper which can be seen here: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Goryeoyang-and-Mongolpung-in-the-13th%E2%80%9314th-Kim-Lee/00eb328be57a608854ff337aaa2d6a9216584c58/figure/0 (The square collar banbi); this illustration come from the a Korean study by Choi (2007). The illustration appears to be itself based on an old poem from Yuan (no visual artefacts of Goryeoyang fashion in Yuan?).
 * 2) This is also the only description of Goryeoyang clothing which can be found in the entire study. Based on this study, we  do not know how influential Goryeoyang female clothing was throughout the entire country or how influential it was on Han Chinese people.
 * 3) Not much information is known on the continuity of Goryeoyang clothing influence in the Ming. A direct quote from a book by Park (2021), "Like the Mongolian style, it is possible that this Koryo style continued to influence some Chinese in the Ming period after the Ming dynasty replaced the Yuan dynasty, a topic to investigate further"
 * 4) In Ming, there was a popular form of skirt called maweiqun (马尾裙, lit. 'horse-tail skirt'), also known as faqun (发裙). The maweiqun was initially introduced from Joseon (Not Goryeo). It was not popular in the early Ming but in the Mid-Ming from the reign of Chenghua to Hongzhi (1465~1505). Therefore it cannot be referred as Goryeoyang clothing by definition. It was also an exotic fashion in Ming rather than Chinese. Therefore, it is not included as Hanfu.

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