Talk:Hang Sơn Đoòng

rename the page?
"hang", "động" and "hang động" in Vietnamese all mean cave. "hang" is a pure Vietnamese word. "động" is Sino-Vietnamese word. "hang động" is a combination of the two words above. All three words above have the same meaning. Why is động Phong Nha called "Phong Nha cave", but hang Sơn Đoòng called "Hang Son Doong"? 1.53.10.52 (talk) 03:09, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Someone's attempt at re-writing the lead section
Son Doong cave is found by a local man in 1991 in Phong Nha – Ke Bang National Park of Quang Binh Province. Moreover, in 2009, it was recently discovered by British cavers. http://vietnamtripadvisor.net/uploads/images/news/112013/sondoongcave5.jpg

This cave is considered one of the world’s largest caves. It is five times larger than the Phong Nha Cave. The biggest chamber of Son Doong is over five kilometers in length, 200 meters high and 150 meters wide. It was created 2-5 million years ago by river water eroding away the limestone underneath the mountain. Inside the cave, tourists can camp near Hand of Dog, a huge stalagmite that looks like a dog’s paw. The roof of the cave collapsed centuries ago, creating sections blanketed in lush green. Waterfalls, massive stalactites’ and even a jungle called the Garden of Edam with an assortment of native animals are housed inside the cave.

Explorers also spotted monkeys entering through the roof of the cave to feed on snail. Besides, scientists have discovered “never- before-seen” plant species around Son Doong’s waterfalls. It also features two large underground sinkholes with cliffs as high as 800 feet.

Coming to visit Song Doong Cave, tourists will have the strangest experience inside the cave that is silence. As known, silence is deafening and when you are in the lake section of the cave, which is barren to all thing’s living, standing in complete darkness and silence is an experience that you cannot forget. The more you explore Son Doong cave, the more you feel its attractiveness as your next big life challenge. http://vietnamtripadvisor.net/son-doong-cave-quang-binh-2-83.html 222.254.150.127 (talk) 14:01, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Update article?
"largest cave" claim is out of date as of 2014 - its now 2015. 124.148.252.225 (talk) 05:41, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't see anything specific to 2014/15 which needed updating. I did tweak the wording at one point to remove a WP:DATED problem. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 06:18, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect Infobox Picture
The picture in the infobox is not of Hang Son Doong, but instead of Hang En, which is also located in Phong Nha National Park. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.174.178.179 (talk) 03:28, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with you.113.162.238.129 (talk) 08:00, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Translation of the name (Hang) Sơn Đoòng
I just read a Vietnamese language article (http://vnexpress.net/tin-tuc/thoi-su/hanh-trinh-tim-ra-hang-dong-lon-nhat-the-gioi-3212365.html) interviewing Hồ Khanh about the meaning of the name Sơn Đoòng and learned that it didn't mean (or wasn't meant to be) Mountain River Cave at all. Below is the relevant paragraph from the article Họ gợi ý chọn tên Đoòng, một bản nhỏ trên đường vào hang và tôi đồng ý đặt là Sơn Đoòng, với nghĩa ngọn núi ở sau bản Đoòng”, ông Khanh kể.

They suggested to choose the name Đoòng, a small village on the way to the cave and I agreed to name it Sơn Đoòng, with the meaning of the mountain behind Đoòng village, Mr. Khanh said. So to me, we need to rewrite the parenthesis in the first sentence of the article from (hang Sơn Đoòng, "Mountain River cave" in Vietnamese)

to (hang Sơn Đoòng, "Mountain cave behind Đoòng village" in Vietnamese)

Below is the word for word translation of (Hang) Sơn Đoòng Hang = cave (pure Vietnamese word) Sơn = mountain (Sino-Vietnamese,山) Đoòng = name of the ethnic village near the cave (ethnic word, not Vietnamese word) Tdcao (talk) 23:57, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what Đoòng means, but I know that native Vietnamese words don't have double oo, so it must be a word from a local language.


 * actualy we do have "double oo" words, "xoong nồi", "mới coong","boong tàu", "ba toong". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:4803:FEC1:7510:914F:FB98:72B4:4413 (talk) 04:44, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 14 January 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved (non-admin closure). sst ✈  02:09, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Sơn Đoòng Cave → Hang Sơn Đoòng or → Sơn Đoòng cave – The "cave" part is not part of the proper name of the place. Writing "Sơn Đoòng Cave" is like writing "Biên Hòa City". While just Sơn Đoòng by itself would look like a viable name per WP:CONCISE, it's ambiguous because it refers to the mountain, not just the cave in it. The redundant "Hang Sơn Đoòng cave" will not work; it's like writing "Rio Grande river" or "Mount Fujiyama". The proper name is Hang Sơn Đoòng, which is looking like the common and non-ambiguous name in English. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  22:20, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Follow-up:
 * Exclusionary searches: "son doong cave" (any case) excluding "hang son doong" gives 325,000 results . The other way around gives 338,000 results, so the full Vietnamese name is actually more common than the bastardized "Vietlish" mish-mash. A search for just "son doong" excluding both more specific phrases gives 423,000 results , but a) many of these are constructions like "Son Doong, a cave ...", "the cavern of Son Doong", etc., i.e. longer versions of "Son Doong cave", and b) some are references to the mountain/area, not just to the cavern, and many are blogs and other unreliable sources. Since "Sơn Đoòng" by itself is ambiguous (fails WP:PRECISE), it's a choice between "Sơn Đoòng cave" and "Hang Sơn Đoòng", with the latter clearly (and perhaps surprisingly) being the more common, though not by a large margin.
 * From first few pages of Google search results on "Son Doong" (without the "Hang"), many give "Son Doong cave" (lower-case c), including high-quality sources like National Geographic, ,
 * Some include "Hang" anyway, in "Hang Son Doong" (including high-quality sources like Nat. Geo. again, and Smithsonian), , , as well as some travel/tourism sites ,
 * Sondoongcave.org uses both "Son Doong cave" (lower case) and "Hang Son Doong"., as does Heritage Daily.
 * Some use the redundant "Hang Son Doong cave", but this seems rare, for obvious reasons.
 * Some also use upper case "Cave", but most of these are travel information sites (tertiary sources), tourism promo sites (primary sources, like this one, which also uses "Hang Son Doong" ), and random blogs (secondary but unreliable) . However, some of all three of these sorts of sites also understand the "cave" part should be lower case (, etc.). The majority of instances of "Son Doong Cave" capitalized this way are in title-case titles and headings, or in promotional materials with rampant advert-style capitalization throughout. One of these even shows up in cached Google search results capitalizing it and using bad case in wording like "Adventure tour for best Cave adventures"-style material, but has been cleaned up since it was trawled by Google, and now uses lower case "Son Doong cave" .  Some use "Son Doong cave" and "Son Doong Cave" in the same page , with the overcapitalization in the more promotional portions.
 * News sites are completely inconsistent, veering from "Hang Son Doong" (HuffPost, News.com.au ) to "Son Doong cave" (VietnamNet ), to "Son Doong Cave" (Daily Mail, but which elsewhere used "Hang Son Doong" ), to the ignorant "Hang Son Doong Cave" (The Telegraph).
 * A few bloggish sites just use "Son Doong" or use it as a short form after giving a longer one . Some of these are references to "trips to Son Doong", etc., and may refer to the entire area, not simply the cave (some do specifically refer to the cave with the short name, though).
 * Vietnamese-published sources in English are all over the map on it, too.
 * Google Books search is not helpful, because almost all of the results are tertiary travel guides, and most of the appearances are titles/headings in title case.
 * — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  23:18, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Support per nom's compelling case that "cave" is not part of the proper name and not typically treated as a proper in sources. Dicklyon (talk) 03:29, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I can't see any flaw in these arguments. Tony   (talk)  07:30, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Support. I note that every one of the many sources given in the nomination leaves off the diacritics. Both the current and proposed title are 100 percent "invented here." Brother Twisted (talk) 22:48, 18 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.


 * Post RM comment @: It's because diacritics are not part of the WP:COMMONNAME analysis, by long-standing consensus. The sources I used were found via Google, which strips diacritics. If you use a search engine that doesn't, like Yandex, you see that "Sơn Đoòng cave" is very clearly not made up here:, , , , , . The Save Sơn Đoòng campaign  not only uses that spelling in English, stylized tone marks even feature prominently in the English-language logo (though most of their site has not been translated into English yet). Lots more examples here. Anyway, some publishers choose to include native-languages diacritics in proper names, others do not. WP is one that does.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  11:13, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Article needs updating on several points
I have a lot of work to do today so am just going to dump sources here:

Cave has UNESCO protection now
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  19:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * For both world heritage and biodiversity: http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/vietnams-heritage-cave-system-wins-second-unesco-title-for-biodiversity-47513.html

Site a major boon to tourism revenue in region; much attention drawn to it internationally
Leading to cable car controversy, below. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  19:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/vietnam-province-reports-robust-tourism-growth-thanks-to-worlds-largest-cave-55923.html
 * http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/worlds-largest-cave-in-vietnam-named-greatest-place-to-see-in-21st-century-50666.html
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/business/32206/tourism-revenue-in-vietnamese-province-soars-thanks-to-son-doong-cave-officials
 * http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/travel/108173/son-doong-cave-attractive-to-travellers.html
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/lifestyle/23903/ny-times-names-vietnam-province-among-top-52-places-to-go-in-2014
 * http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/travel/85248/hundreds-of-foreign-tourists-booked-for-tours-to-son-doong-cave.html
 * http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/travel/148853/ambassadors-to-vietnam-invited-to-visit-son-doong-cave.html
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/lifestyle/28473/vietnam-to-promote-son-doong-cave-at-sea-games
 * http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/vietnam-praised-for-stunning-caves-street-food-57533.html
 * http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/vietnams-son-doong-named-among-places-out-of-this-world-43498.html
 * http://www.thanhniennews.com/society/traffic-terrorism-tpp-among-top-google-searches-in-vietnam-in-2015-57392.html

Cable car plan controversy; preservation concerns
There's been some backing off from this plan: — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  19:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Protests are coming from the Vietnamese people not just from UNESCO, etc.
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/business/23797/son-doong-hard-choice-between-mass-tourism-and-sustainable-development
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/lifestyle/23518/public-experts-concerned-about-potential-cable-car-systems-harm-to-son-doong-cave
 * http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/kiwi-traveller/63161686/preserving-son-doong-the-biggest-cave-in-the-world.html
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/lifestyle/24240/british-explorer-opposes-cable-car-construction-in-vietnams-son-doong-cave
 * http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/travel/143904/tourism-agency-backs-son-doong-cave-cable-car-project.html
 * http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/environment/144519/cable-car-a-threat-to-beauty-of-son-doong-cave.html
 * http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/tourism-authority-supports-controversial-cable-car-near-worlds-largest-cave-52348.html
 * http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/vietnam-province-justifies-controversial-cable-car-project-at-worlds-largest-cave-40517.html
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/lifestyle/23494/us212-mln-cable-car-system-to-be-built-to-son-doong-cave
 * http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/dec/03/worlds-largest-cave-vietnam-threatened-cable-car
 * http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/vietnam-province-pushes-cable-car-plan-for-worlds-largest-cave-33544.html
 * http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/unesco-body-asks-vietnam-to-justify-cave-cable-car-project-33667.html
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/business/23677/vietnam-tourism-firms-officials-cautious-about-song-doong-cave-cable-car-construction
 * http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/vietnam-ministry-blocks-controversial-cable-car-to-worlds-largest-cave-33900.html
 * http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/11670611/Worlds-largest-cave-to-be-preserved-in-its-natural-state.html
 * http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/worlds-largest-cave-gets-temporary-reprieve-from-cable-car-38731.html

Tourism to site shut down, autumn 2015 – spring 2016
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  19:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/lifestyle/30244/vietnam-temporarily-ceases-discovery-tours-to-son-doong-cave
 * http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/worlds-largest-cave-son-doong-closed-for-short-restoration-period-report-51001.html
 * http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/travel/140465/tour-of-exploring-son-doong-cave-closed-for-four-months.html
 * Similar suspension in 2014–2015: http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/vietnam-authorities-suspend-tours-to-worlds-largest-cave-30576.html

Cave featured in ABC [US] live docu on Good Morning America (2015)
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  19:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/lifestyle/28047/vietnams-son-doong-cave-awes-us-television-viewers
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/lifestyle/28104/porters-contribute-to-success-of-abc-show-on-vietnams-son-doong-cave
 * http://vietnamnews.vn/life-style/280581/top-10-cultural-events-of-the-year.html

National Geographic produces virtual tour with 360-degree shoot by Martin Edström
Photographer is Swedish. Title has been given by sources as both "Son Doong: A 360 Adventure" and "Fly Through a Colossal Cave: Son Doong in 360°"; part of a larger project called "Son Doong 360". Martin Edström (a long-term NatGeo pro) is notable and should have an article, though as some of these articles report, not everything to do with the project was his work. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  19:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Official site (with map we could adapt a variant of, on slide 2): http://www.nationalgeographic.com/news-features/son-doong-cave/2/#s=pano37
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/lifestyle/28185/natgeo-features-son-doong-cave-in-dizzying-360degree-images
 * http://www.psneurope.com/son-doong-national-geographic-explores-the-infinite-cave-with-spm-8000-mics/
 * http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/travel/131347/exploring-son-doong-cave-through-360o-photographs-on-natgeo.html
 * https://powermore.dell.com/technology/video-martin-edstrom-explores-the-worlds-largest-cave-son-doong/
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/lifestyle/28216/swedish-photographers-360degree-images-of-vietnams-son-doong-cave-wow-viewers
 * http://www.theinertia.com/video/bringing-son-doong-360-to-life-the-motivation-behind-immersive-storytelling/
 * http://www.theinertia.com/mountain/explore-dizzying-360-panoramas-of-worlds-largest-cave/
 * http://www.idigitaltimes.com/son-doong-cave-tour-virtual-guides-take-you-inside-vietnams-most-famous-cave-445728
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/features/26227/vietnams-son-doong-cave-to-be-seen-in-360-images-by-natgeo
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/features/26298/exploring-the-hidden-charm-of-vietnam-in-son-doong-cave

Independent drone photographer Ryan Deboodt produces fly-through videos
He's an American living in mainland China. Official site: https://vimeo.com/121736043 (videos "Hang Son Doong" and "Above and Below"; two others are of nearby Hang En) The amount of coverage potentially makes Ryan Deboodt notable, but he doesn't seem to be known for anything but this, so perhaps not. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  19:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/16/hang-son-doong-drone-worlds-largest-cave-vietnam_n_6882916.html
 * http://petapixel.com/2015/03/11/photographer-takes-drone-into-hang-son-doong-the-largest-cave-in-the-world/
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/features/29193/meet-us-photographer-whose-lens-captures-vietnams-son-doong-cave
 * http://www.theinertia.com/environment/a-world-within-hang-son-doong-the-largest-cave-on-earth/
 * http://www.scoopwhoop.com/world/hang-son-soong-cave/
 * http://tuoitrenews.vn/lifestyle/26107/vietnams-son-doong-cave-in-photos-taken-by-us-photographer

300 myo fossils found
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  19:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/science-it/116138/300-million-year-fossils-discovered-in-son-doong-cave.html

There was a Quang Binh Cave Festival in 2015
Googling for that specifically turns up more sources. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  19:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/dark-cave-miniature-version-of-son-doong-50490.html

Hollywood film production Kong: Skull Island shooting footage in the cave
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  19:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/art-entertainment/146425/hollywood-blockbuster-to-be-filmed-in-son-doong-in-february-2016.html
 * http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/art-entertainment/149690/-kong--skull-island--film-crew-to-work-in-vietnam-in-february.html
 * http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/entertainment/filming-of-kong-skull-island-to-begin-in-the-new-year/news-story/1d6a7e6131eef0c2890534f2b0cb3c13
 * http://www.thanhniennews.com/arts-culture/new-king-kong-movie-to-film-in-worlds-largest-cave-in-central-vietnam-53669.html

As a consequence of several of the above, tours to the site sharply limited in 2016, maybe longer
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  19:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Were sold out by 10 January 2016: http://english.vietnamnet.vn/fms/society/149841/social-news-10-1.html
 * There were only 500 permits: http://www.thanhniennews.com/travel/2016s-tour-to-worlds-largest-cave-on-sale-only-500-early-bookings-accepted-49672.html
 * Compare over 3,000 in 2015 (at average price each of US$3K, more than average Vietnamese yearly income): http://www.thanhniennews.com/society/traffic-terrorism-tpp-among-top-google-searches-in-vietnam-in-2015-57392.html
 * 500-person limit set in 2015 and may last indefinitely

We are missing articles on the nearby sister caves
Most obviously Hang Én 'swift cave' (named for the birds that nest in it), which is notable (already has article on Vietnamese Wikipedia). It's the third largest cave in the world, has its' own jungle, and a beach. Various others that probably should be addressed, probably at a Quang Binh karst system article, include hang Nuoc Nut, Kim, Tu Lan (possibly notable, and including Hang Bi Mat 'secret cave'), Va, Ken, Tien, E, and Toi ('dark', including also Hang Thuy Cung). Not all of these are within the Phong Nha – Ke Bang National Park. Hang Toi has a 400 m zip line from an observation deck. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  19:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

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