Talk:Hang Tuah

Untitled
I come across this page and feel something not too right,so decided to post some comment. The phrase "Malay will never be faded from this world" actually means "Melayu Takkan Hilang di Dunia". In my opinion, for the phrase "Takkan Melayu Hilang di Dunia" should be more accurate if translated to "Could not be Malay vanished from this world".Cs shiver (talk) 09:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cs shiver (talk • contribs) 09:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The phrase "Takkan Melayu Hilang di Dunia" is actually means "Malay will never be faded from this world"...I've translated it into a true form of its meaning...While the word "conquered" that Borisblue wrote was actually a figurative. -user:blozzee


 * For Takkan Melayu Hilang di Dunia is "No Malays will be vanished and conquered" really a correct translation? I've changed it. I've also removed the "unreferenced" tag. This stuff is famous malay folklore, for one thing, you can get the stories from Malaysia's Secondary School literature textbooks. -user:Borisblue


 * 'Tak kan Melayu hilang di bumi,' is from a song about Hang Tuah. See It's not something actually said by the Hang Tuah, which is obvious, considering the only thing we know about Hang Tuah is from the semi-historical  Malay Annals. It shouldn't be in this article as a supposed 'quote'. Darx9url (talk) 08:17, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

"Hang" is one of Malay titles
There is a lot of confusion going around regarding Hang Tuah's ethnicity. History tells us the truth about Hang Tuah that he is a Malay in ethnicity but some confused persons are creating an obviously false theory (opinion) on him.

They try to change true facts about Hang Tuah and other Hangs just because of the title "Hang" in front of their names. As told in history records, "Hang" was a title given to "people who have done good deeds for the state" and "as well as the bravery spirits shown".

It was also stated that Li Po (a princess from China with her original name) was given the title "Hang" by Sultan Mansur Shah, due to her "bravery" shown in "adapting herself in a foreign country (Malacca)" while being his wife. The false theory-makers have been confusing about the title "Hang".But not true

They are also making others confused by concluding the five warriors names reflect Chinese ethnicity just because of the title "Hang" in their names. Trying to change history, they change those names to make them (the 5 warriors' names) sound like Chinese names. For example Hang Tuah (Tuah meaning "luck" in Malay) changed to Hang Too Ah; Hang Jebat changed to Hang Jee Fatt; Hang Lekir changed to Hang Lee Ker, and Hang Lekiu changed to Hang Lee Kiew. Look, they changed to make them sound just like Chinese, just to create confusion in people (while they are in confusion, too).

Are they aware of other unrecorded Malay words/meanings in the dictionary? There are many meanings of Malay names that are not recorded; the Malay words from other dialects and other subethnics such as from Bugis, Patani Malays, Kedahan Malays, Kelantanese Malays, Satun Malays, Champa Malays (in Cambodia and Vietnam), Minangkabau Malays, Orang Laut Malays, and much more.

Are they aware of other titles in Malay? Malays have titles other than "Hang" such as "Wan", "Tun", "Tan" (less known by people), "Nung" (in Riau), "Che'", "Che'Wan" (combined from Che and Wan), "Nik", "Ku", "Teuku", "Long" (in Kelantan royal families) and many more. There are also titles like "Tengku", "Abang" (in Sarawak), "Dayang" (for women, in Sarawak), "Awangku" (in Brunei), Dayangku (for women, in Brunei), and many more.

All of those titles are passed on by their bearers to their families. Looking at these, '''why don't they claim that all the bearers of those titles are Chinese as well? '''

P/S: Dear violaters of the article and the creator of false theories (opinion), please use your wise thinking. Think about it deeply. Please do not change true facts of history especially when talking about names in history records.

Mr. Knows (talk) 13:36, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Someone vandalized my above discussion on 1 October 2014 at 09:53, with this IP address: 203.92.129.63. He or she deleted all my paragraphs, except the "P/S" and replaced the deleted paragraphs with this: "T???". So, today, I undo this discussion page to the previous (before the vandalism).

P/S: The discussion that I wrote (on 7 November 2009) above was just to let people understand Malay cultures and languages on names/naming before believing in baseless rumors (false theory about Hang Tuah & his 4 friends). I don't know why some people keep spreading rumors and claiming the five historical Malay warriors as theirs only based on false theory. Nevertheless, history must be based on facts and proof, not rumors. And to the vandal, please learn about history, not the rumors.

Thanks.

Mr. Knows (talk) 16:37, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Hang Tuah, a Malay hero or a Chinese?
In Hikayat Tun Sri Lanang, it is mentioned that Hang Tuah was born in the area presently known as Kampung Sungai Duyung in Melaka, Malaysia. His father, Hang Mahmud, and his mother, Dang Merdu Wati, were servant of the Melaka palace serving the sultan.

There are rumors that Hang Tuah is a Chinese descent however, this claim is baseless. There is a statue of Hang Tuah in Bintan. The surrounding area of Melaka including Sumatera once were the area of Malay people without border like today. So people can travel freely between this area.

Hang Tuah did not originate from Malacca
According to Sejarah Melayu(History of Malays), Hang Tuah did not actually originate from Malacca but from Sulawesi. Hang Tuah is actually a present from the Sultan of Bugis to the Sultan of Malacca.

Malay is an open race equate to Islam and more cultural than genetic leniage. Being along trade route intermariagges was possible only on one condition convesion to Islam ,The religion Parameswara (1344 – 1414) was a Hinduism-Melayu prince (from Palembang district of Srivijaya Empire) that founded Melaka around 1402 and converted to Islam,Title Sultan Iskandar Shah and Married to Muslim Princess of Pasai. Properity of Malacca attract many including Tuah father from Bentan.Hang was not a family name but a Title thus we have Hang Tuah,Hang Lekir,Hang Nadim. Infact in Kedah "Hang" is used to mean you and "Hangpa" means you all.Probably first used as a sign of respect in reference to someone else which gentle culture of Malay.Like Dato a title in Royal Court is use commonly in respect of Grandfather. Tok Wan (Datok Wan) is refered to Grand father. Wan is a title of respect for royal relatives. Hang Lekir or Hang Jebat run Amok? With Hang Tuah disappearence Hang Jebat was given Laksamana ship he more likely did not revolt but Hang Kasturi di as told by Sejarah Melayu or Both of them revolted one after the other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.93.152.23 (talk) 03:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * There is no debate whatsoever. Please produce a reliable source to back up your claims. Borisblue 07:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Disputing the Dispute about Hang Tuah's Origin
First of all, let me just state that i'm an ordinary guy with limited education, but with that kind of argument(see above), one could say that Justice Bao is an Indian just because he has dark skin (or so his enemies say)!!! Also, i would like to ask a few questions regarding the collecting of Hang Tuah and his companions' DNA. How did they get their hands on Jebat's Dna? i thought he was a traitor to the Sultan. traitors during that time didn't get the honour of being buried in the Muslim manner. No. Traitors would be executed, their family members would be executed, and their bodies thronw into the sea. second, Princess Li Po did not come to Malacca with the surname Hang. the title was awarded to her by Sultan Mansur. It's in the Sejarah Melayu. and there is mentioning of the title Perhangan in the SM, and in one of the chapters of the SM, there were SEVEN men who bore the title Hang, not five as mentioned in the HHT. Hang Tuah came into Malacca's service during Sultan Mnsur Syah's reign. how did he have influence over what the Sultan wears? the 'Yellow Rights' of the Malay kings were introduced during the reign of Mansur's grandfather (Megat Iskandar Syah). And by the way, Tuah means fortunate in Malay.

What I understand so far...
From the discussion threads that there are still on going discusion on the race of Hang Tuah, is he Malay or Chinese. Just to add some more issues (instead of resolving the existing ones):

- I have read somewhere that he was born and raised in Sungai Duyong, Melaka and that his father is a fisherman (a normal occupation for malay in that age)

- regarding Jebat's DNA, some report says that he had a son with one of the dayangs named Hang Kadim/Nadim and the Bendahara hid him when being ordered by the Sultan to eradicate Jebat's family, thus providing channel for the DNA test. However, i might have miss on something, when and who have conducted these DNA testings?

- I agree that the HANG in Hang Li Po was awarded by the Sultan after her arrival and that is not the family name of the princess

- The Malacca Sultanate wears yellow in respect of the Ming Dynasty, in sense of the existence of relationship between the two kingdom and the Sultan feels that he has the same status as the Ming, thus he elected to wear yellow as symbol of power and sovereignty, just like the Mings That's my issues so far

DEMIGODICARUS (talk) 10:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Just mention the Malay/Chinese controversy in the article?
I do not see the problem with putting in a section in the article mentioning the Chinese/Malay dispute. While I myself do not put much stock in the allegations, I actually came here looking for some information about the issue and was surprised to find no mention of it whatsoever. The dispute itself inarguably exists, and a simple Google search reveals thousands of discussions about it. I would say that regardless of Hang Tuah's actual lineage, the dispute itself has grown large enough to warrant a mention. Wahming (talk) 05:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Please consult WP:OR __earth (Talk) 10:13, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, what? I am not putting forward any OR. I am mentioning that a dispute exists. That is not research, that's a plain fact. Wahming (talk) 03:49, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The dispute exists in chain mail that you get through email. Please find credible sources as requested by the WP:OR policy to prove it. Without citation, a lot of these junk mails could be passed as fact simply because it "exists". __earth (Talk) 03:55, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Wahming, I think you are new, let me tell you, this member Bumi@Earth and many of his Sock puppet (gang) are actually full time cyber watchdog hired by 'them', their job is here to filter and censor all the wikipedia articles containing Malay sensitive issues, such as:


 * Malay attitude - a long list of NEP 'crutches' critics by Tun Dr Mahathir Mohammad
 * Malay Arabisation / Malay Arabization - a fact that many Malays in Malaysia mimicking the Arabs
 * this
 * The Sejarah Melayu claim Alexander the Great as ancestor of Malacca sultanate
 * and many more

All the above articles are expected to be deleted by 'them', they are the world's largest group of government workers, the exact number may be close to 1.5 millions in total. These NEP-Malays are fully relying on government's salary to survive, known as "crutches culture" in Malaysia. They fear Wikipedia reveals the truth of the Malay attitude, they delete, delete and delete, censor, censor and censor.

KCKaySee (talk) 03:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Nice story. Just like all of your edits which aren't based on fact. (Never mind the fact that I oppose the NEP). Talking about sockpuppet, funny that sock puppets usually have links to their persona as red due to their single purpose account nature. __earth (Talk) 16:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi cyber watchdog, the other day someone started an article "Malay attitude", you called the admins to delete it. You should know that Malay attitude is a common term in Malaysia used by Malays to criticize Malays but how surprise you said "aren't based on fact". Please read the news at below, by ex Prime Minister Dr Mahathir Mohamad. KCKaySee (talk) 02:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC) The Star 17th June 2002


 * And why would a neutral admin agree with me? Is it because I control wikipedia? What more conspiracy theory do you have? The truth is, you are obviously unfamiliar with Wikipedian policies and are blaming me for your ignorance. Well, I won't answer to any of your agitation anymore because it is unproductive. But I will continue to refer to admin for any edit that violates Wikipedian policies, including yours. I don't do stuff at whim, unlike you which have no respect for process at all. AND, you are obviously taking this personally... cool down. If you have trouble with me, talk to an admin. __earth (Talk) 03:54, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah right, you are the one who hurled abusive word WIMP on me on the date 9 November 2007, proof is here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ashaari_Mohammad&action=history

You should cool down and do not always try to hide Malay Attitude away. Yes, although we do know that Malay Attitude, especially the Cruthces-NEP-Malays policy was special design for weak incompetent people (better you deny if you are going to Michigan University). After all Malay Attitude is a term in common use.

Well, I won't answer to "another NEP-Malay", because they are unproductive and they can only rely on government wages.

I suggest you read the below article written by DINA ZAMAN on 28-08-2008

KCKaySee (talk) 05:34, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Like Jesus, the easter bunny and santa claus, Hang Tuah is a MYTHICAL character. He did not actually exist. He is part of folklore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.125.172.2 (talk) 07:26, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Too much Original Research going on in this page
There's too much Original Research going on in this page, and unfortunately also in the article. It needs clean up to remove stuff not based on Reliable Sources. If anyone wants to help, here are a list of journal articles I found about Hang Tuah.


 * http://www.jstor.org/stable/27864152?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
 * http://www.jstor.org/stable/41492013?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
 * http://www.jstor.org/stable/27863079?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
 * http://www.jstor.org/stable/41561372?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
 * http://www.jstor.org/stable/41492219?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
 * http://www.jstor.org/stable/25817718?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
 * http://www.jstor.org/stable/41491844?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
 * http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13639810304447?journalCode=cimw20
 * http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=4425832&fileId=S0022463400000308
 * http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=90305&fileId=S0022463401000170
 * http://www.jstor.org/stable/27865542?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
 * http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com/content/journals/10.1163/22134379-90003921%3Fcrawler%3Dtrue
 * http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13639810601130267
 * https://books.google.com.hk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=9uyuHAXBuRkC&oi=fnd&pg=PA333&dq=hang+tuah+&ots=J7mSrrYbDR&sig=G9VO1GOj459docLdQqxthCPTlFY&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=hang%20tuah
 * http://www.jstor.org/stable/1523202?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
 * http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01436599814442

Also, a list of newspaper articles:


 * http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2012/01/22/Is-Hang-Tuah-fact-or-fiction/
 * http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/opinion/2012/01/24/a-historian-takes-on-a-warrior/
 * http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/187170
 * http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/186895
 * http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/hang-tuah-not-a-good-leader-says-ex-pm
 * http://asiancorrespondent.com/73936/refute-of-warriors-existence-throws-malaysians-into-confusion/
 * http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2012/04/10/ministry-hang-tuah-is-like-robin-hood/
 * http://toglobalist.org/2012/11/the-once-and-past-king-2/

Let's make sure this article is well sourced. Darx9url (talk) 08:14, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

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Legendary?
suggest to put add word "legendary" on his edit, which I oppose. One of his argument is other article also use that word, which is basically WP:OTHERCONTENT, and such arguments should be avoid to use on discussion pages.

MOS:PEACOCK explicitly mentioned that Legendary as words to watch. MOS:PEACOCK also state Words such as these are often used without attribution to promote the subject of an article, while neither imparting nor plainly summarizing verifiable information. Therefore the only acceptable uses of that word if you have reference that explicitly mentioned the status of Hang Tuah as Legendary. Ckfasdf (talk) 02:17, 12 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Well there is an "imparting of information" in this sense. Stating he is "legendary" means he is of a mythical status (like King Arthur). But if the editor Yekshemesh can provide a source that specifically states the word "legendary" then that would make more people happy Danial Bass (talk) 21:03, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
 * In case of King Arthur, Encyclopædia Britannica explicitly stated that he is legendary British king, see https://www.britannica.com/topic/King-Arthur . So the usage of "legendary" is accepted there per MOS:PEACOCK. Ckfasdf (talk) 23:35, 13 July 2023 (UTC)