Talk:Hanno the Navigator

Stecchini's Link & Controversy
A note on the link provided:

The voyage of Hanno carefully analyzed by a classical scholar.
 * http://www.metrum.org/mapping/hanno.htm

While I agree that this description is fascinating and sounds convincing (but then I lack knowledge of African geography), the site also contains a long exposition by the same scholar trying to make the case that the Christian gospels are based on a lost play by Seneca. I cannot judge on the accuracy of this either, but it's bound to be controversial. I don't know whether the way the link is described should be changed (and I definitely think the link should stay), but I just thought other people might want to know.

--Martijn faassen 00:52, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Livio Tullio Stecchini was a historian of science, a teaching professor (Harvard PhD), a scholar of ancient weights and measures, (the science of metrology) and cartography. This site in question is a kind of e-festschrift to Stecchini's memory reprinting some scattered material. Stecchini's analysis to the geometry and methods for constructing the Great Pyramid were interpreted for a popular audience in Peter Tompkins' Secrets of the Great Pyramid with Stecchini's "Notes of the Relation of Ancient Measures to the Great Pyramid," in an appendix to the book. Of course anything about the pyramids excites the untutored imagination and one fears for quackery and pseudoarchaeology. Yes, Stecchini's essay on "the Deluge as Metaphor" may also excite some indignation. But there are brilliant essays at this site, on the origin of money in Greece, on the relation between Greece and Anatolia in "Gyges and Homer", and in "The Key to Ancient Architecture," Stecchini's famous analytic measurements of the Parthenon, etc.


 * I certainly hope even Christianists will take this material seriously. Wetman 02:12, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I just wanted to make this information known. I thought the article on Hanno's journey was very convincing, but was a bit taken aback seeing the Seneca stuff and started wondering, as this seemed to be a rather extraordinary claim (thus requiring extraordinary evidence; then again, this is a religious book therefore full of extraordinary claims in itself). --Martijn faassen 20:14, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Stecchini's genius is as a historian of measurements, thus navigation is an area I'd trust him in. But he was Italian, and an atmosphere of sentimental piety sometimes induces guys to smash a little crockery... Wetman 20:19, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"Boat of a Million Years"
I seem to recall that in "Boat of a Million Years", while the lead character is called Hanno, he is explicitly not the historical Hanno. I will remove this section until someone comes with evidence I don't recall correctly. Martijn Faassen 21:25, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * (I didn't want to complain, but this far-fetched fiction reference was like a pebble in my shoe. Wetman 23:41, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC))


 * Well, I have to admit, I do not recall for sure whether the Hanno in the book is in fact THE Hanno the Navigator, but I do remember they call him Hanno the Phoenician, which of course is not proof. A reference on the net to Library Journal says "Hanno the Navigator" in a book review. As far as the pebble in the shoe goes Wetman, do you mean that you feel connecting the sci-fi novel to Hanno in this way (assuming it is THE Hanno) is far-fetched, or do you mean that you believe that the Hanno in the book is not the same, or something else? I have seen on Wikipedia fictional portrayals connected to actual historical figures, both referencing the historical figure to it's appearance in fiction and vice versa, so I don't think I'm setting a precedent here. It was my intention to write a short entry for The Boat of a Million Years referencing back to here. I assume that this is how historical novels are handled. I firmly believe that it is the inter-connectivity of Wikipedia which makes it great. Where else would such a link even be possible? I guess I can imagine someone only versed in science fiction reading the article for The Boat of a Million Years, clicking the reference to Hanno, and getting turned on by the fact that Hanno is in fact a real person and maybe exploring a bit further. Of course, all this is mute if Hanno here isn't the same Hanno as in the book. Jimaginator 12:03, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty convinced the Hanno in the book isn't supposed to be Hanno the Navigator. I think he explicitly denies being that Hanno at some point, in fact. When I was reading it I was wondering, so I took note when it was denied. Martijn Faassen 09:18, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * A section on Boat of a Million years was added again at some point. I just cut it down to what I understand to be the case of the book. I think the book never makes a true identification of the protagonist Hanno with Hanno the Navigator. Since people keep adding it back, I figure we do need a small section if only to state the truth. If someone can quote lines from the book identifying that Hanno with the article's, please give textual evidence. Martijn Faassen 17:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Remarks about people appearing in video games etc rarely enrich the reader's understanding of the original. So there are many pebbles in my shoes. However, though Hanno the Navigator's genuine history enriches a reading of this sci-fi fantasy, the converse is clearly not true.... --Wetman 14:04, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Your point is well taken, but I wonder where the interface between fiction and fact should be. Hypothetically, had Twain wrote "A Connecticut Yankee Meets Hanno The Navigator", would it be worthy of inclusion here? Would its age and notoriety make its inclusion automatic? After reading your comment here, I randomly chose Abraham Lincoln as a very well know figure and found that there is a line describing Steven Spielberg possibly making a movie of his life. Why have such a comment at all? Why not include a list of ALL of the fictional and semi-fictional portrayals? Presumably, Spielberg will at least try on some level to show some historical accuracy, but suppose his treatment were truly pure fiction? Anyway, I would hardly claim that my information regarding Hanno's (or not) appearance in the Poul Anderson novel enriches, but rather that it is informative. I would claim however that it is helpful to provide Wikipedia readers with as much information as possible, and let them sort it out. Would love to hear your thoughts. Jimaginator 19:10, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)


 * IMO, the "possibly" part makes a Spielberg film bio of Lincoln un-notable, for the time being. There should be a Walt Whitman note at Abraham Lincoln, I reckon. Age and notoriety are almost worthy of inclusion all on their own: Zsa Zsa Gabor. It's a case-by-case call: Marguerite Yourcenar is worth a reference at Hadrian, because Memoirs of Hadrian affects our perception of Hadrian. Other pop culture manufacturers merely use "big names" as props, as Steven King employs myths: spurious appearance of depth. But I have a deeply instilled "high-culture" bias anyway... --Wetman 19:34, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Uh oh, "high-culture". I wish I knew what that was! Would that be Shakespeare who wrote for the common people, or Mozart with his popular musicals? I used to perceive a difference, but I'm not so certain anymore. Will a Nobel Prize winning author be "classic" in 300 years, or The Simpsons? We may do a disservice by superimposing a preconceived notion of relative worth on the entries we write and edit. Still, I have to admit, that given a choice between Mozart's and The Simpsons' article vanishing forever, I will have to be in favor of Mozart being saved. The test of time does have its merits. For now, I will leave poor Hanno alone, but this issue is an interesting one, and I am going to take a further look into how it is approached throughout Wikipedia. Jimaginator 00:27, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

Gorillas
What is with the hairy women? [unsigned]


 * Don't know whether this was a serious question, but I added in some text going into the various theories concerning the hairy women. Martijn Faassen 20:19, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Pharaoh Neccho
Hi. Sorry, it's taken me a while to get back here. I hope in the next day or two to make absolutely sure, and I think someone has confused Herodotus's account of the Phoenician voyage around Africa with Hanno's voyage. I'll reread the account of Hanno's voyage to make sure my memory is correct and, if so, correct the article. By the way, I'm happy with BCE dates. Gallador 14:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Herodotus
Hi. Actually, modern scholars believe the report Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa, for the reason Herodotus doubted it, that the sun was to the north. This account of a voyage c. 595 BCE around Africa from the east has been confused in this Hanno article with Hanno's separate voyage c. 425 BCE. part way down the west coast. Gallador 22:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed additions of Oroblanco
It is sad to see that the additions I added yesterday have been so quickly removed and replaced with the erroneous information such as Hanno living circa 450 BC, which is absolutely incorrect and can be proven by the fact that one of the cities founded by Hanno is mentioned specifically by the Greek historian Hecataeus, who lived 550 to 470 BC. In fact the work of Hecataeus which mentions Hanno's city has been dated to 520 BC. How could Hecataeus have mentioned the city if Hanno lived more than twenty years after his death? This sort of mis-information is rife with many Carthaginian historical figures, and I see that we cannot get the record set straight thanks to our members like Wetman. I included references, which have been deleted.

Good luck with your Wikipedia, I will not add any further information. Oroblanco —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oroblanco (talk • contribs) 01:58, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * (The deleted bits of "information" were the "Dating the Voyage of Hanno" section and asserted Atlantis connections with a personal signature added shown in this diff. Was anything of value lost in deleting this apparently unencyclopedic unsourced personal essay? --Wetman (talk) 10:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC))

Dr. Fell's Professional Status
User:Clovis re-prefixed "amateur" to Dr. Fell's name as a epigrapher, stating in his description that this is the case because Dr. Fell's "training and experience" a marine biologist.

However, it is disingenuous to discount an academic as an "amateur" if his professional experience crosses into other fields. Many people go on to significant professional expertise in fields other than the title of their academic major.

In Fell's case, his doctoral dissertation in Marine Biology was on the dispersion of animal species, including humans, to islands. Consequently it was his doctoral thesis on dispersion of people in the Pacific that led Dr. Fell into the field epigraphy. As a tenured Harvard professor, Dr. Fell published several books on epigraphy and founded several epigraphic societies. One would be hard pressed to find a "professional" epigrapher who has published more on the subject.

It appears to me that Clovis' use of the word "amateur" is intended to marginalise Dr. Fell's expertise because Clovis disagrees with Dr. Fell's conclusion. That violates NPOV. I am reverting it - again. Cadwallader (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * He was an amateur. You even wrote "It should also be remembered that most of the pioneering work on epigraphy that is now taught by academics was originally published by "amateurs" such as Georg Fabricius - literature professor, Theodor Mommsen - classicist. Like Fell, these men were multi-talented tenured professors whose interests and academic work delved into a number of far-fetched areas." If you actually know anything about Barry Fell, you should know that even his most fervent supporters praise him for his identifcation of scripts and deprecate his translations and the accuracy of his drawings of inscriptions. 'Amateur' is correct.  And I agree with you that there are many gifted and famous amateurs, but I don't think Fell was one of them. Of course, if you prefer 'untrained' or 'unqualified'....Doug Weller (talk) 20:28, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Gorillas?
Is there any definitem evidence that Gorillas lived in the costal areas where Hanno travelled?

Could this be a misprint for Chimpanzees which are more active and savage than Gorillas?AT Kunene (talk) 11:39, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Later voyages
There are bound to various arguments about the length of Hannos voyages. About the only definite clue seems to be the rivers of fire which may be an active volcano.

Wherever Hanno reached there doesn't seem to be any mention of any subsequant voyages to the same area or even any further results of the Phoenician voyage around Africa.

Could it be that there were no profits likely to be made from such extended trade routes and that was an end to these voyages of exploration?AT Kunene (talk) 17:29, 29 October 2012 (UTC)


 * It's widely thought that the Carthaginians / Phoenicians were fairly secretive about their activities, and that what information they did share was designed to discourage competition. Himilco's exploration to the north took place at the same time as Hanno's, and we hear nothing more about trade in that direction either, yet the Carthaginians seems to have had sources of tin from somewhere. But keep in mind this page is not a general forum, the main purpose is to discuss how the article can be improved, sourced, etc. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:13, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

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Ancient authors
List of ancient authors that mention Hanno: (Greek authors, according to University of Chicago) (according to similar source)
 * Appian
 * Polybius
 * Diodorus Siculus
 * Herodotus
 * Aristotle
 * Cicero
 * Plautus

Maybe some more? Wikinights (talk) 22:22, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Removing external links
Today I removed several external links. Page before, Page after. Reasons:
 * "Arriani et Hannonis ..." this Greek and Latin text is unreadable for most readers.
 * "Primo volume dell ..." same reason but in Italian
 * "Hannonis periplus. Quem ..." no link; should be placed in External links instead. Published in 1661, probably Latin, not readily available per a Google search; therefore, I think it will never be used as a source.
 * "Genuina Stephani Byzantini" Latin
 * "Geographi graeci minores ..." Latin and Greek
 * "The Periplus of Hanno" translation on archive.org. We already have a more recent translation cited, which also has more introductory material, annotations, maps, etc.
 * "Periplus in English" same
 * "Hanno's voyage" same
 * "Hanno, a Carthaginian navigator" encyclopedia entry already cited
 * "Annotated commentary" webpage already cited. Significant differences from modern version
 * "Scan of an original Byzantine manuscript" the Byzantine manuscript is cited in the article as "Add MS 19391" Wikinights (talk) 00:37, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Section plan
This is my current plan for the sections.

0. Lead 1. Biography 2. Periplus 2.0. Note information about text 2.1. Summarize the periplus 2.2. Textual criticism 3. Expedition (from a modern scholar's viewpoint) 4. Ancient authors' accounts 5. Legacy Wikinights (talk) 08:58, 10 July 2021 (UTC)