Talk:Haplogroup BT/Archive 1

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Haplogroup BR split off from haplogroup A 55,000 years bp? What a nonsense! The haplogroups diverged more than 100 000 years ago! Centrum99 82.100.61.114 17:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

who walked out on whom? was it a mutual thing?
the article says "Haplogroup BT split off from haplogroup A 70,000 years bp". is it actually known which group diverged from the other? are there samples of A that predate samples of BT? is the haplogroup of Y-chromosomal Adam known? this is not my area of expertise (at all), but i found the language used somewhat surprising; it feels like it should read as "Haplogroups BT and A diverged 70 kya" or somesuch. is this a change to the text that should be made, or am i completely off base? someone clue me in here. pauli133 (talk) 14:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * africa or indic ocean?australoids and negrilhos/negritos live in the indic-pacific and not only in east africa..the southern red sea in anciet north somalia-southwest yemen is the perfect link with the negroids of southeastern world and the majority negroids in the "congo world"(subsaharian africa).. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.114.193.206 (talk) 05:24, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

What the hell is this? I've searched Google Scholar, and I cannot find any references to Haplogroup BT. I have Spencer Well's book "Deep Ancestry" (2007) and I don't find this or the notation YxA in his comprehensive list of haplogroups. This one, if it existed, would be of extremely high importance, and yet there are no references to it anywhere! Is this a hoax or what? Qed (talk) 03:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I figured it out, and added some text to the article to resolve my confusion as to why I can find no literature on the BT haplogroup. Qed (talk) 17:20, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that they keep changing their tree every year. This makes it hopeless for Wikipedia to ever contain useful information, as articles tend to lag behind several years, and hasty "fixes" tend to mix nomenclatures form different years, until confusion is complete. People also keep "fixing" things by renaming articles, until there are bunches of redirects pointing to articles that do not even mention the haplogroup-formerly-known-as you were looking for. I cannot even try to fix this, but I tried to trace down this "M42" the page now seems to be named after, and I didn't find any reference of any year which even treated M42 as eponymous of any haplogroup. M42 pops up in 2008 as just one mutation defining "BR". It is now listed in a long string of mutations for "BT-M91"(as of 2015). As best I can make out, this is about connecting A1 to B, and the list of things that happened between A1 and B seems to evolve on a year-by-year basis. It may be a good idea not to rename this page to "BT-M91" now, but to name the page something like "mutations connecting haplogroups A and B". The move to "M42" was done in 2012, including the copy-paste of the "B" part of the and some thing about "citizen scientists". Unfortunately, none of the information inserted at that point even mentions "M42". It's not in the 2008 YCC tree as claimed, and it's mentioned in the supplementary just as a random mutation in "BR".

The full "2015" list at ISOGG is: M91, CTS5903/M9174/PF795/S1572, CTS7503/M9219, L413/PF1409/V31, L418, L438, L440, L604/PF1243, L962, L969, L1060/PF1021, L1061/PF1101, L1062/PF302, L1071/M8945, L1220/M9212, M42, [emphasis mine] M94/PF1081, M139, M251/M9122/PF699, M299, M8947, M8949, M8951, M8952, M8953/PF1405/V216, M8954, M8955/PF12, M8956, M8957, M8958/PF196, M8959, M8961/PF201, M8967, M8968/PF207, M8969/PF1407/V21, M8970/PF208, M8971, M8972, M8973, M8976/PF215, M8977, M8979/PF226, M8980/PF229, M8983/PF230, M8985/PF232, M8986, M8988, M8993, M8994, M8995, M8997/PF260, M8999, M9000, M9001, M9003, M9004/PF270, M9005, M9006, M9008, M9009, M9010, M9011, M9015, M9016, M9017/PF282, M9019/PF286, M9020/PF287, M9021/PF288, M9025, M9026, M9027, M9028/PF298, M9030, M9031, M9032/PF304, M9034, M9036/PF308, M9037, M9038/PF313, M9039, M9041/PF319, M9042, M9043, M9045, M9046/PF324, M9054, M9056, M9057, M9064/PF350, M9065/PF351, M9066, M9069/PF635, M9070, M9075, M9076, M9077, M9079, M9080, M9081, M9083, M9086/PF648, M9087, M9089/PF653, M9094/PF671, M9095, M9097/PF672, M9098, M9099/PF674, M9100, M9102, M9103/PF679, M9105, M9109, M9110/PF684, M9111, M9112, M9113, M9114, M9115, M9116/PF688, M9117, M9118/Page81, M9121, M9123, M9124/PF701, M9125, M9126/PF703, M9127, M9128, M9129/PF707, M9130/PF708, M9131, M9133/PF715, M9135, M9136/PF724, M9138, M9139, M9140, M9141, M9142/PF731, M9143/PF732, M9145/PF733, M9146, M9148/PF744, M9151, M9152, M9155/PF762, M9156/PF764, M9157/PF766, M9159/PF767, M9160/Page24, M9162, M9163/PF777, M9165, M9166/PF785, M9169, M9172, M9173/PF794, M9176, M9177, M9178, M9179, M9180, M9182, M9187, M9188, M9189, M9192, M9193, M9194, M9195, M9196, M9197, M9198, M9199/PF834, M9200/PF835, M9202, M9203/PF837, M9204, M9209, M9210, M9213, M9214, M9215/PF847, M9216, M9217/PF857, M9218/PF860, M9220, M9221, M9223/PF865, M9225/PF868, M9226/PF869, M9227, M9228, M9230/PF870, M9231/PF876, M9234, M9235/PF886, M9237/PF890, M9238, M9239, M9240/PF896, M9242/PF899, M9244, M9245, M9246, M9248, M9249, M9251/PF913, M9252, M9253/PF914, M9254, M9255/PF925, M9257, M9258, M9260, M9261/PF931, M9262/PF932, M9263, M9265, M9266/PF946, M9267/PF948, M9269, M9271, M9277, M9278/PF969, M9280, M9282, M9283/PF973, M9284, M9285, M9286, M9287, M9288/PF985, M9289/PF988, M9290/PF989, M9291, M9292, M9293/PF997, M9295/PF1000, M9296, M9298, M9300, M9301/PF1015, M9302, M9303, M9306, M9310, M9311/PF1030, M9312, M9314, M9315/PF1033, M9316/PF1034, M9317, M9318, M9319, M9321/PF1045, M9322/PF1049, M9323/PF1050, M9325, M9326, M9327, M9328/PF1053, M9331/PF1057, M9334, M9335/PF1060, M9336/Page26, M9338/PF1064, M9340, M9341/PF1072, M9343, M9344, M9346, M9347, M9348/PF1093, M9349, M9352/PF1100, M9353, M9356, M9357/PF1209, M9359, M9360, M9361, M9362, M9365/PF1218, M9366, M9367, M9368, M9369, M9370, M9372, M9373, M9374/Z4690, M9376, M9377/PF1421, M9378, M9379/PF1253, M9380/PF1256, M9382/PF1257, M9387, M9389, M9390/PF1262, M9393, M9394/PF1271, M9396, M9397, M9398/PF1279, M9399/PF1283, M9405, M9406, M9408/PF1296, M9410, M9411/PF1315, M9412, M9417, M9420, M9421, M9425, M11752, M11753/PF243, M11754, M11755/PF280, M11756/PF301, M11757/PF327, M11759, M11760, M11762, M11767, M11773/PF809, M11779/PF1027, M11780/PF1044, M11781, M11787/PF1311, M11789/PF1332, P97, Page65.1/SRY1532.1/SRY10831.1, PF16, PF20, PF28, PF51, PF69, PF72, PF73, PF79, PF122, PF127, PF133, PF135, PF149, PF161, PF162, PF167, PF175, PF177, PF236, PF338, PF420, PF462, PF468, PF509, PF585, PF591, PF592, PF601, PF620, PF622, PF626, PF627, PF632, PF713, PF918, PF1026, PF1042, PF1096, PF1143, PF1178, PF1184, PF1196, PF1201, PF1247, PF1248, PF1249, PF1252, PF1274, PF1318, PF1325, V29/PF1408, V59/PF1411, V64/PF1412, V102/PF1406, V187/PF1403, V202/PF1404, V235/PF1410, Z11924, Z11926, Z11927, Z11929, Z11930, Z11931, Z11932, Z11933, Z11937, Z11938, Z11939, Z11940, Z11941, Z11943, Z11945, Z11948, Z11970, Z11971, Z11978, Z11979, Z11980, Z11981, Z11983, Z11984, Z11985, Z11986, Z11987, Z11988, Z11989, Z11990, Z11991, Z11993, Z11997, Z11999, Z12001, Z12002, Z12003, Z12004, Z12005, Z12006, Z12007, Z12008, Z12031, Z12047, Z12070, Z12071, Z12077, Z12094, Z12095, Z12096, Z12110, Z12111, Z12128, Z12129, Z12138, Z12139, Z17332, Z17333, Z17334, Z17335, Z17336, Z17337, Z17338, Z17339, Z17340, Z17341, Z17342, Z17343, Z17344, Z17345, Z17346, Z17347, Z17348, Z17349, Z17350, Z17351, Z17352, Z17353, Z17354, Z17355, Z17356, Z17357, Z17358, Z17359, Z17360, Z17361, Z17362, Z17363, Z17364, Z17365, Z17366, Z17367, Z17368, Z17369, Z17370, Z17371, Z17372, Z17373, Z17374, Z17375, Z17376, Z17377, Z17378, Z17379, Z17380, Z17381, Z17382, Z17383, Z17384, Z17385, Z17386, Z17387, Z17388, Z17389, Z17390 --dab (𒁳) 10:24, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

page name? current terminology? ISOGG?
I think this page may have become screwed up as part of a heroic effort at fixing the nomenclature problem in late 2012/ early 2013. It seems this effort was ill-timed, as the academic community seems to have been cleaning up its terminology just at about the same time, and things remained in flux for another year or two. The "M42" in this page may have been a mistake even at the time, I am not sure. If we decide to stick with "ISOGG" nomenclature, this haplogroup has been known as "BT" since July 2012, so I wonder why the page was moved away from "BT" in December 2012. I am also not sure if "ISOGG" is the source to treat as authoritative, as it itself a community effort, but it seems it is well-maintained and already makes the effort of absorbing current research, which if we ignore ISOGG we would just have to repeat for Wikipedia, duplicating effort.

I am not an expert on this in any way, I have last tried to keep up with maintaining haplogroup articles in the late 2000s, and at some point gave up in despair as the situation kept getting worse instead of better, but it seems that since 2012, some kind of stability has been emerging, so it might make sense to follow ISOGG (2015) now, just as long as we make very sure that each reference is scrupulously dated to make future maintenance easier. --dab (𒁳) 10:51, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

BT includes everything but A
It is often confusing when cases of haplogroup BT are reported and it isn't made clear which member haplogroups of BT the sample is known *not* to belong to. For instance the ancient Malawian BT samples are reported not to be CT, but are not excluded from B, which is common in Africa. (They are very likely to belong specifically to B2b-M112. An amateur blogger who has analyzed the publicly-available data files for these samples has found that they belong to subclades of B2b, which is to be expected since B2b is found at high frequency among Pygmies, Hadza, and Khoisan, who are thought to descend largely from ancient local populations of Central, Eastern, and Southern Africa. But this is OR.) 70.77.37.23 (talk) 20:54, 4 November 2018 (UTC)