Talk:Haplogroup I-M170/Archive 1

ISOGG corrections based on newer research
-Shows how some of the SNPs are incorrect on the '06 ISOGG map, and is the basis for my corrections. Nagelfar 21:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to create a new WikiProject: Genetic History
I have put up a suggestion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals to create a new WikiProject, WikiProject: Genetic History.

To quote from what I've written there:


 * Description: A wikiproject for articles on DNA research into genetic genealogy and genealogical DNA tests; the history and spread of human populations as revealed by eg human Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA haplogroups; and similar. Many such articles can be found in Category:Genetic genealogy and its subcategories, notably the subcategories on human haplogroups.


 * Rationale
 * My direct motivation for seeking this Wikiproject was a recent run-in at Y-chromosomal Aaron, where I desperately missed the lack of a relevant WikiProject talk page to go to, to attract the input, advice and views of knowledgeable editors in this area.
 * There's a lot of general public interest in the proposed subject area -- eg the Y-chromosomal Aaron page is apparently getting well over 100 hits a day, and over the last 18 months or so there's been a lot of material added, by a fair number of different editors, mostly editing different pages which are particularly relevant to them. IMO, a central wikiproject would be useful, and also a good place to be able to bring WP:OR, WP:V, and WP:general cluelessness issues for wider informed input.
 * Wikipedia:WikiProject Molecular and Cellular Biology and Wikipedia:WikiProject Evolutionary biology do already exist, but their focus is much much broader. With regard to those project's charters, I believe the subject would be seen as a rather specialist niche topic area, rather out of the mainstream of those project's normal focus.  On the other hand, I believe that there are a number of wikipedia editors (and readers) who are specifically interested in the subject, who would find advantage if there were a specific wikiproject for it. Jheald (talk) 12:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

If people think this would be a good idea, it's a target for WikiProjects to have at least five "interested" signatures to show there's some support, before they get going.

Alternatively, if people think it would be a bad idea, please leave a comment in the comments section.

Either way, please show what you think, at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals

Thanks, Jheald (talk) 13:39, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

P38 equivalency
P38 defined old "I1" but upon the restructuring of the Y-I tree: old I1 has dissolved and old I1a became I1. What is the P38 mutation now equivalent to? Was it considered equal to all things I* (M170, M258, P19, U179) or was it made the same as the new I1 (equivalent to M253, M307, P30, P40)? Nagelfar (talk) 23:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The new ISOGG tree makes this now clear. It is "I". Nagelfar (talk) 08:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

ISOGG 2008
I have made updates to the I chart to reflect ISOGG 2008. Specifically, per PA Underhill and others, Karafet et al have incorrect data as follows: M436/P14 is upstream from M223; M423 is upstream from P41.2

Also, have included all snps specified in ISOGG 2008.

Foosayer (talk) 19:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Organizational philosophy
Maybe someone should separate some of the information here, rewrite, add any pertinent information to fill-out the I1a & I1b specific pages like the R* Y-DNA pages have done for their subclades? Nagelfar 01:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Done? Jheald 15:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Looks like! (at least a major step of it) Nagelfar 15:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

The Yhg-I page has been edited to copy blocks of detailed data from other pages for the subclades. I believe this violates the 'keep the detailed info in one place and reference it when needed' principle of Wikipedia, and such moves make it nearly impossible to keep Wikipedia consistent and up to date.

Strongly suggest these redundant infos be deleted. The links to the I1 and I2 subclades are in the box at the top, and that is how people should explore the subclades of Yhg-I. Foosayer (talk) 19:18, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Haplogroup naming
The constant name changing is becoming really annoying and time-wasting. We might consider an experiment on Haplogroup I pages, using haplogroup names based on SNPs per Underhill.

Thus I-M223 instead of I2b1; or I-M284 instead of I2b1a

Is the expression of hierarchy really important in the name? People generally work in only one portion of the tree related to their own DNA, and in the local context, the SNPs are pretty well recognized. Foosayer (talk) 20:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Discrepancy in Underhill 2007
The referenced paper specifies the age of I1 and I2 divergence as 28.4±5.1 ky. I would think a value of roughly half this distance would make more sense, particularly as they go on to state the STR variation age of I1 to be 8.1±1.5 ky.

Perhaps I am not understanding something. Prof. Underhill has not yet answered my query. I almost expected that they were summing the length of both branches, but then they go on to imply it's an actual date estimate in that it matches the Aurignacian/Gravettian boundary.

Any ideas. Foosayer (talk) 22:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I1-I2 divergence 28.4±5.1 ky, further divergence (sub-branches) within I1 8.1±1.5 ? Zenanarh (talk) 10:52, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The maps for south east Europe
Cadenas2008, the group I2a (I1b) does not have its peak over Zagreb and Slovenia (50% !?, no here it is more like 30 %) but rather along the coast of the Adriatic sea. The gradient is exacly the other way around. Please do not put it over Belgrade either (< 20%). If you are just looking for the right spot on the map to place the peak a good default would be Split, a city in Dalamatia. Use Pericic et. al. to create a more accurate map. There is a link in the references.

See Semino et. al. for the map of Europe as well. Please, put the peaks where they are, not where you feel they should be: In Italy the group is virtually absent (0%), In Romania/Moldavia there is again a peak etc.


 * Don't worry, new maps are already in developement at the moment, expect it here soon. Zenanarh (talk) 18:17, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

OK

User Crates kindly re-created a map of the entire Hg I. Unfortunately, it merely duplicated the error, placing the peak of Hg I over Slovenia instead of Herzegovinia. I replaced it with another map with slightly more accurate placements of Hg I distribution. Perhaps editors can see if the new map is OK ? Hxseek (talk) 01:00, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

The new maps look great (Semino 2004). The legend has I2 on both of them, it should rather be I on the first one.

Disease and HG I
Discussion at the rootsweb HG I mailing list (see archives for the end of Jan. '09 and the beginning of Feb. '09) talk much about this "HIV/AIDS" study regarding haplogroups and its finding that HG I and particularly HG I1 appear to be susceptible to all disease categories (not just HIV/AIDS). I added the mention of AIDS in the "Studies" heading I created, but maybe someone could cite more of the study and the specifics and generalize it better. Nagelfar (talk) 22:38, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

This is disinformation, and also impossible, as this type of vulnerability is not related to haplogroup, that is impossible. Please remove this nonsense from the page, it is leading to racist behaviour and hate campaigns.

Germany
From my research, Germany is about ~22% haplogroup I, not 38% as the article at the moment says. Can someone please provide a source for this because I think it's false data... I've put up a fact tag, and because I strongly believe it's incorrect, I will remove it within a week if no source is provided. --BignBad (talk) 06:07, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Simply give YOUR source(s)! HJJHolm (talk) 07:39, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Source for German 38% haplogroup I: 'Semino et al., The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans' Can someone please add that up as a source,so we can put Germany in the I frequency box... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.131.254.141 (talk) 11:32, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Units of time
Please note that neither ky nor kya are alowed SI-units of time. The only correct is "a" for year, or "ka" for thousand years. Please refer to "Unified code for Units of Measure at http://unitsofmeasure.org. HJJHolm (talk) 07:58, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Serbs and haplogroup I
Someone has edited page on August 24, 2011 and put the wrong percentages for Serbian population. Currently it shows 62% for Serbia, and 73% for Bosnia. It should be as it was, that is 36% in both cases. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Garestin (talk • contribs) 02:54, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

ISOGG 2011
The pages has been updated to the new 2011 YTree

--Jkkanters (talk) 17:19, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Update Serbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe

Serbs: n=179; R1b=4.5; R1a=14.5; I=48; E=17.3; J=5.6; G=2.2; N=3.3; L=0.6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe#cite_note-Mirabal2010-33

91.200.192.10 (talk) 09:39, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

I-M170 in the Middle East?
"...Darginians of Dagestan 58% and Abkhazians 33%..."''

Let me express my very serious doubts about these numbers. The same study lists about 30% I-M170 in Iranians, which is a clear nonsense. This is an error. Actually, it is quite clear that the alleged "I" is "J1".109.81.252.94 (talk) 12:00, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Origins
How can Hg I be associated with the Gravettian Culture? For, this article says that there are conspicuously few I lineages in Italy... yet, Italy was part of the Gravettian Culture. Also, Europe's Venus Figurines are as old as 30+ thousand years, long before Hg I first appeared in Greece. And, those Venus Figurines don't appear in Greece itself, where Hg I originated. In short, (1) Venus Figurines do NOT correlate with the Gravettian Culture; (2) Hg I does NOT correlate with EITHER the Gravettian Culture, or Venus Figurines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.68.244 (talk) 10:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably because you've misinterpreted it all. HG I didn't originate in Greece. Greece is place where HG I almost doesn't exist virtually!!! According to our knowledge it originated somewhere in Europe, practically in the focus of the Gravettian culture. Italy was marginal territory of this culture spread. Zenanarh (talk) 08:37, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You should not mix history with genetic science. say where it originated geographically and that's all. we will draw conclusions. and albanians have it 16% tops, not 25.89.205.2.29 (talk) 18:07, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistencies
This page needs to be rewritten with current thinking, information like The haplogroup is almost non-existent outside of Europe, suggesting that it arose in Europe - followed soon by: Haplogroup I first arrived in Europe around 20,000-25,000 years ago from the Middle East is contradictory. Nagelfar (talk) 11:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and am changing the wording of the last snippet to: The TMRCA for Haplogroup I is 22.2 (15.3, 30.0) ky, and cite Karafet et al. 2008. Since there is no data to support where the founding event took place, best to make no assumption. Foosayer (talk) 19:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Since there is nothing in the text to support a place of origin, I have removed the long list of countries from the top box, and replaced it with the more general Europe or Asia Minor. Origins is intended to indicate the place of origin of the mutation which created the haplogroup, not the places where subclades of I are found today.--Genie (talk) 00:02, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

There is an apparent inconsistency between the 'Distribution' part of the main text and the corresponding color map for I-M170: The text says that I-M170 is less common in Latvia than in Estonia, the maps however indicates the opposite. Tuonawa (talk) 23:48, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Distribution

 * As for the presence of I1b2 in Anatolia, aren't you aware of the Gothic settlement there? 82.100.61.114 01:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

This anonymous ignorant should have informed himself before in wikipedia: There have never been Gothic settlements in anatolia. HJJHolm (talk) 07:30, 9 October 2010 (UTC)


 * If the Goths were considered from the Scandinavian Peninsula, they'd bring I1 diaspora not I2. Nagelfar (talk) 06:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, actually the Goths were an eastern European tribe. The location of Jordanes' "Scandza" was probably in todays Scandinavia (but it also may have not). The "Gothiscandza" was in todays Poland and there is a lot of I2 (or previously I1b) there. According to Semino 6.9 to 9.9 % in favor of I2. The location of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wielbark_Culture would also support this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.36.190.122 (talk) 06:26, 23 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Whenever there's an anon, there's usually a stupid comment... --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 22:11, 2 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Yunusbaev (2006) found 2/364 (0.55%) I1a, 2/364 (0.55%) I1c, and 14/364 (3.85%) I1b for a total of 18/364 (4.95%) haplogroup I in a study of indigenous peoples of Dagestan, which is located at the eastern end of the Caucasus. This is not significantly different from the frequency of haplogroup I in Anatolia. Ebizur (talk) 06:12, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

L161.1
Two L161.1 individuals have been measured about 7315 YBP and 5200 YPB ( years before present ). Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433 Mjjolley (talk) 05:06, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Finnish "exception"
The article states that "Haplogroup I-M253 (M253, M307, P30, P40) displays a very clear frequency gradient, with a peak frequency of approximately 35% among the populations of southern Norway, southwestern Sweden, and Denmark, and rapidly decreasing frequencies toward the edges of the historically Germanic-influenced world. A notable exception is Finland, where frequency in West Finns is up to 40%, and in certain provinces like Satakunta more than 50%."

It seems somewhat inaccurate to me to refer to Finland as an exception in this case, since it was ruled by (Germanic) Sweden for more than 500 years and we know of significant Swedish migration to Finland during this period, particularly to coastal areas of Western Finland (where the article claims frequencies are highest). If the Finnish samples were taken in "Swedish" areas, it should come as no great surprise that the frequencies are similar to those found in Sweden. Maitreya (talk) 07:24, 21 September 2011 (UTC)


 * No, I1d-"Bothnian" is found in West Finland Finns (I don't remember if there are studies of Finland Swedes) and very rare in Sweden Swedes. It is certainly very ancient, maybe preceding the now dominant N1c1 in Finland.
 * Moreover, that paragraph quite pointlessly draws a link between I1 and Germanic. Absolute majority of the now-Germanic I1's were certainly Germanicised in the last 2 milleniums with the expansion of Germanic tribes and states. Prior to that they spoke Paleoeuropean. Some of them may have experienced some period of Finnic, Basque, Celtic, Slavic speaking prior to Germanization. Germanic, Celtic and Slavic are descended from Indo-European, introduced by R1a1a1. Finnic was brought from China by [[Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA)#Hapl

\ogroup_N1c1_.28N-M178.29|N1c1]] not more than 6500 years ago. Basque was introduced by R1b1a2. СЛУЖБА (talk) 21:37, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I disagree, germanic and celts are not decsended from indo europeans, most germanic groups are R1b and I carriers. The Celts like Irish show more in relation to Basuques than other indo-europeans. Akmal94 (talk) 21:42, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I-M170 among Daghestanian Laks and Tabassarans
"Tabassarans (1/30)[30] and the Saami (1/35). [1] The greatest figure so far for I* was among the Laks in Dagestan, at a rate of (3/21)".Link to study Bulaeva Kazima,but there (work of 2009!) is no such data about "greates figure" among Laks and Tabasarans.Where they are,can you clarify? According to Bulayeva among Laks 43% J1,14.3% J2. According to Bulayeva: "the Dagestan groups analyzed here represent outliers in theCaucasus Y genetic landscape because of the presence of rare allelesand prevalence of M267-derived J1 Y chromosomes. The absence of downstream mutations in clades J1-M267 (with the only exception of the J1e1 subclade), G-M201, I-M170 and E1b1b1-M35 chromosomes(Figure 3)." OK! And who is about "greates figure" of I-M170 among Daghestanian Laks and Tabasarans? 109.172.58.15 (talk) 08:22, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

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Why there is NO MAP?
Cro-Magnon map is present, but no HAPLOGROUP I MAP!?! What's the problem? HIDING A GENOCIDE OVER SERBS? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.155.139.87 (talk) 14:43, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Male height
The inclusion of the statement that this haplogroup is "associated" with unusually tall males, as well as lengthy description of the average heights of various Balkan countries, is dubious and seems like original research. There is no genetic evidence for a causal or correlative factor between this haplogroup and male height anywhere in the study listed. I propose removing this claim, or at least knocking it down further to the bottom of the article so it doesn't seem like a supremacist advertisement of this haplogroup. - Hunan201p (talk) 00:21, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:53, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Europe20000ya.png (discussion)
 * Percentage of major Y-DNA haplogroups in Europe.png (discussion)
 * The approximate frequency and variance of haplogroup I-P37 clusters in Eastern Europe.jpg (discussion)

Nasidze
The results of his unfortunate study should be removed. It is just clear that the "I-M170" in his work is actually J1. Centrum99 (talk) 08:44, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Poor grammar
"Available evidence suggests that I-M170 was preceded into areas in which it would later become dominant by haplogroups K2a (K-M2308) and C1 (Haplogroup C-F3393)." Can somebody form a cler sentence out of this? Deepl can't, or comes out with a different sense.2A02:8108:9640:1A68:4D5D:A78F:3CDF:4767 (talk) 09:45, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

The lead summary doesn't summarize the article
It also includes exclusive content, for example the sample word "Věstonice" is in the lead summary but not in the article at all. 5.173.105.123 (talk) 06:14, 17 January 2023 (UTC)