Talk:Haratin/Archive 1

etymology
According to modern linguists, the etymology of Haratin from HRTH is incorrect. The sentence that suggests an unknown origin is more close to the truth as well as is the association with skin colour. The essential (French) literature is as follows:

D. Jacques-Meunié, Hiérarchie sociale au Maroc présaharien, Hespéris xlv (1958), 239-269. G.S. Colin, ‘Hartani’, The Encyclopedia of Islam, vol. 3, 230-231.[classic] F.J. Nicolas, ‘L’origine et la signification du mot hartani et de ses equivalents’, Notes Africaines 156 (1977), 101-106. [relates name to Kaharta = market] Catherine Teine-Cheikh, La Mauritanie en noir et blanc. Petit promenade linguistique en Hassaniya, Revue du Monde Musulman et de la Méditerrannée 54 (1989), 90-105. [important new direction in research] Remcoensel (talk) 09:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Mauritania / Mauretania
I note that Arre has edited the spelling of the modern state to the American spelling, Mauritania. I have no objection, other than the false dichotomy between the Roman and Modern. There should be a disambig. for the spellings. (collounsbury 05:29, 4 March 2006 (UTC))


 * I don't believe in that i/e crap either, but since Wikipedia keeps the articles at different locations, this is the spelling we'll have to use for the time being. i'd support a disambig of some kind (or using State of Mauritania, Islamic Republic of Mauritania etc as main page). Arre 05:38, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I understand the need for differentiation, but there should be some kind of disambig or cross reference between the two spellings. Niether is right or wrong for either time period, and the articles should not falsely give that impression. I would do xref myself but I do not know the code for that. (collounsbury 05:51, 4 March 2006 (UTC))

Confused and Substandard Article
This article is rather problematic (as well as being of very low quality in terms of writing).

First, regarding the etymology, it appears to be wrong. Cultivator I believe is the probable root, from HRTH (emp TH) root.

The interjection regarding Morocco, apparently a defensive one by a Moroccan makes little sense, e.g.: "While there have been no Haratins slaves in Morocco for a long time" and "In Morocco, Haratins are not to be confused with the Gnawa, what many people tend to do."

Certainly slavery was rather more effectively abolished in Morocco than Mauretania, although "a long time" is somewhat misleading. Better to say, "since the abolition of slavery under the Protectorate."

The assertion regarding Gnawa is just factually wrong. Gnawa is roughly the Berber equivalent, and means Black by the way, as in people, and while the author correctly notes that modern use of Gnawa in Morocco tends to what he describes: "Gnawa is rather a cultural and religious movement composed of brotherhoods and music groups of people from different ethnicities." that does not reflect historical, even recent reality. Gnawa music and closely associated magical practices were largely the practice of black often slave class people.

The added exposition here on marriage and Gnawa music seems far afield, as well as tenditious: "While some haratins may practise the Gnawi music, they till recently, tended to practice endogamous marriages and thus can be considered as a specific ethnic group." It would strike me as less tenditious to say the Haratine class in the Moroccan Sahara were often not considered marriagable in wider Berber society.

This seems rather Morocco centric and nothing much to do with the overall issue of Haratine, "With the evolution of the Moroccan society, many inter ethnic marriages now exist especially among educated people or those who have moved to big Moroccan cities."

Overall this article should be pared down to the core definition of Haratine, perhaps with a historical note regarding different uses (as e.g. the Moroccan berber "Haratine" in the Draa area [as I recall] are thought by soem scholars to represent an older indigenous black population, and not a slave population, unlike the Mauretanian case. In fact local tradition has them as the "original owners of the land" Collounsbury 08:41, 1 February 2006 (UTC)).
 * You made very sensible remarks, this article certainly needs to be digged a bit more, this is not a very explored subject in Morocco, and it certainly needs to be !--Khalid hassani 18:34, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, it does need to be examined a great deal more, although there is a Moroccan historian, Ennaji, who has written on some of these issues. (Collounsbury 19:21, 20 February 2006 (UTC)).

Very Confused
This article very obviously exists, but whenever I am linked to it or actually type in Haratin as an article, it says that the page does not exists and to start the article. However, I can obviously see the article when I see the history (using diff). Does anyone know what's wrong? Yom 06:46, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Same problem here, this might simply be a software bug or an unknown form of vandalism --Khalid hassani 18:36, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Very queer. I tried resaving the last edit by Arre and still got the article not found. I am going to try reverting to an older version to see if this fixes anything. (collounsbury 18:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC))
 * Okay resaving an older edit, the edit before Arre's last edit, seems to have fixed the problem. I presume then there is some kind of code bug. This does lose Arre's reference to slavery in Mauretania. (collounsbury 18:54, 6 March 2006 (UTC))

The person who wrote that Haratins make up 25% of algerian population was completely wrong sorry. Haratins had never made 25% of that country. Don't confused "algerian tuaregs" and "Haratins" cause they are the same thing. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.132.99.79 (talk) 18:10, 20 March 2010 (UTC)