Talk:Harawi (Messiaen)

Quechua words
What language was really used in this subject? "Doundou Tchil" doesn't sound as Quechua words, Quechua language has no voiced stops at all. Raoul NK (talk) 11:33, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Added a footnote about Raoul NK (talk) 11:01, 5 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Currently reading Siglind Bruhn's "Messiaen's Explorations of Love and Death", which discusses in detail the present song cycle. A resource for Messiaen that influenced the work was the compendium of collected Andean folk songs by the French ethnomusicologist and composer Marguerite Bélcard d'Harcourt compiled with her husband Raoul d'Harcourt, "La Musique des Incas et ses survivances". From Bruhn, regarding the fifth song in the cycle (which does include in its text, among other onomatopoeic words, "doundou tchil"): "According to the d'Harcourts explanation, "dundu čil" (which Messiaen transcribes for his French readers as doundou tchil) is an onomatopoeic expression in the Quechua language recalling the clanging of the rings and bells Andean dances wear attached to their ankles" (Bruhn 167). The author cites 458-60 of the d'Harcout catalogue. It is possible that the "variance with Quecha phonetics" is caused by Messiaen's adjustment of the original transcription either in an exercise of artistic liberty or for reasons regarding French phonetics. In any case, this may require either a review of the d'Harcourt source or an expert in the matter of the Quecha language (or both) for a conclusion to be reached. --130.157.94.166 (talk) 08:13, 19 July 2011 (UTC) (User:DannyDaWriter, neglected to log in --130.157.94.166 (talk) 08:14, 19 July 2011 (UTC))


 * Quechua has no voiced consonants at all, so there are no words beginning from du- except a few spanish loanwords. The ending -il also is fully impossible in native Quechua words. See dictionary. I can only assume that Messiaen confused Quechua with the Aztec or Mayan languages which have many words sounding similar to "dundu čil". Raoul NK (talk) 11:53, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * BTW, these dancers with bells, rings, and pieces of mirrors are an important element of the Andean culture, like the European troubadours and jugglers. They are called "danzaq", from Spanish danzar "to dance". In Central and Southern Peru, especially in Ayacucho Region, they dance the famous "Danza de tijeras" (dance with scissors). Regarding "dundu čil", in Spanish this should be written as *dundu chil, *dundo chil, or *dondo chil. But Google hasn't found anything suitable. Raoul NK (talk) 07:56, 17 October 2012 (UTC)