Talk:Hard rock/Archive 1

Comment
It's really nice to see a musical genre discussed in terms of objective musical criteria like tonality, instrumental timbre, and tempo. This finally made it clear to me where metal ends and hard-rock begins. Of course these concepts are ultimately prototype-oriented and defy rigid definition, but this article accurately characterizes the prototype in clear musical terms. Kudos, and let's see more of the same.
 * Agreed.

Guns n Roses shouldnt be in that list.

Most punk and grunge bands would fit that diffinition having power chord driven songs with pentatonic solos.--SonOfUncleSam 08:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

A few distinctions?
There is often significant crossover with heavy metal music, but a few distinctions are worth noting: hard rock typically features major key song construction, as opposed to heavy metal, which is often minor key oriented. There is a heavy reliance on the pentatonic scale for most elements of song construction, and fifths (power chords) are often substituted for traditional chords. Chord progressions are commonly associated to 1-4-5 degrees of the scale, as in rock and roll. A few distinctions? There is only one in this list (unless this paragraph is supposed to mean that heavy metal doesn't usually use pentatonic scale and power chords). And saying that the only difference between hard rock and heavy metal is major vs. minor key is ridiculous... --Army1987 13:52, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

this article really needs to be redone
I mean, I agree with a lot of what it is saying, but it seems to be saying it all wrong. I think the AC/DC comment is just...off. Personally I think Guns N' Roses would be a better fit, but i think that no matter who you pick, a lot of people will be alienated. Also, Hexdrix, as much as I love him, definitely wasn't "Hard Rock." Definitely Blues, or just Rock and Roll. The pentatonic is much more punk and such, as are power chords (although yes, they are still used in Hard Rock a lot, especially later stuff). I suppose the rest is ok. I'd like to change the article, but I'd like to get a larger consensus from you guys too. I mean, do the rest of you think it's ok as it is?

I would also agree that there are some errors with the article. As for my bit, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it was Mick Jagger and the Stones that first used distortion not Hendricks.

it wasn't either, it was link wray or paul burleson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.110.223 (talk) 16:13, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Let's go working
I heard this article has to be improved a lot, so I'll start working. I think it should talk about the history of hard rock, and not about differences with heavy metal, because in many cases it's impossible to classify a group as "heavy metal" or "hard rock" (for example the case of Black Sabbath and AC/DC).

--Hard Rock Thunder 12:14, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, for me it's easy. Black Sabbath is metal, AC/DC is hard rock. I find them to be quite different really. Black Sabbath is actually 'heavy' unlike AC/DC, and I'm not talking about how loud they play. marnues 05:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree at all. Black Sabbath's music and lyrics are "darker" and heavier than AC/DC, the scales used are different and so on. Black Sabbath is heavy metal and AC/DC is hard rock. Anyway, there are many people who still consider Black Sabbath "hard rock" or "proto-metal". I have to find a good label which satisfies everyone and it's not easy.

Thank you for your attention,

--Hard Rock Thunder 12:23, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from, and I think that a part of the article should be about this topic. But I agree with you that it should mostly be about hard rock as a distinct genre. Quick aside, does anyone actually consider punk a part of hard rock. I mean, a healthy part of punk seems to be a rejection of blues and psychedelic rock as direct influences. marnues 01:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

You're right. Punk isn't a part of the pure genre hard rock, it's musically different. It's a rejection of blues, progressive and psychedelic and it uses different scales; anyway, there's still who considers punk as a "product" of hard rock's "alternative" spirit. I agree with you that punk isn't hard rock at all, as you said.

Thank you for your suggestions,

--Hard Rock Thunder 09:16, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi everybody, I'd need a help. I said in the article that Aerosmith, KISS and Queen are the best acts of Glam Rock, but a doubt came out in my head. When you talk about Glam Rock, you usually refer to David Bowie and so on, then the definition of "Glam Rock" I used should be wrong. Do I have to call it Glam Metal or Glam Rock?

--Hard Rock Thunder 10:28, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Aerosmith have nothing to do with either glam genre. KISS became glam metal in the mid 80s when they ditched their makeup.  Queen however is both glam rock and heavy metal, although not glam metal since that developed in the 80's around the LA scene.


 * I am a Queen and a Metal fan, and Queen has nothing to do with metal, they are Hard rock and glam rock and even progressive in 70´s... and in 80´s has a more wide sound with pop...Queen was compared many times to Led Zeppelin in 70´s too.....


 * I like how the article's developing so far. However, be sure you're referenceing sources so you can make sure any assumptions you have are correct.  WesleyDodds 04:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, thank you WesleyDodds for your suggestions. I'll correct that part then!

--Hard Rock Thunder 10:06, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I want to say thanks to all the guys that are helping me in writing this article, especially on the grammar side. My grammar isn't the max, so I need some help for this. Thank you.

--Hard Rock Thunder 10:01, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The article cites Paranoid as the first heavy metal album, but wouldn't Black Sabbath's self titled debut be more appropriate? --72.141.226.196 06:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

NPOV
Well, I see someone has labelled a section of this article as "disputed". I'd like to know his reasons, so we might adjust the section. Thanks.

--Hard Rock Thunder 10:24, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

p.s: If you meant as NPOV the sentence about Van Halen's glam rock, then don't worry, I took it off.

Heavy metal = pessimistic?
I disagree with the sentence : "Heavy metal lyrics, on the contrary, analyses life in a pessimistic way, because of its "alternative" nature". There are countless examples of the opposite, and in fact the article on heavy metal mentions (for example) "power metal bands, whose lyrical and musical tones are often bombastic and optimistic. Many power metal fans and bands, most notably Manowar, believe metal should be inspiring and upbeat music.". Though it is true in some cases, I don't think it can be used as a characteristic to differentiate between hard rock and heavy metal. Certainly that statement should be less affirmative considering its uncertainties. --IronChris 18:26, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you this statement isn't the absolute truth. It represents the general direction of metal, it doesn't want to be exhaustive about all the metal world. Personally, I'd never classify a genre being based on "general tendencies", which sounds like prejudices to me: anyway, as I said many times, I have to do this because this article has to be "encyclopedic". I'm a metallar, I know the world of heavy metal, and I agree with what you said. I'll edit that section, then. Thank you for your suggestions and collaboration.

--Hard Rock Thunder 12:22, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

'90s decline?
how so? it seems that most of the rock bands popular today are highly derivative of hard rock. it didn't decline it just evolved. Joeyramoney 00:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe decline isn't the best term, but it's near to be the best. Hard rock is a blues-derivative genre, while today there are few bands that play the original hard rock. Anyway, I'll erase it.

--Hard Rock Thunder 09:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

idk about that. during the 90s most bands pussed out and started selling softer albums so they could sell more. Sure, every once in a while youll hear a new hard rock song from some random band on the radio, but since the early 90s hard rock has really decreased in popularity. For example, a radio station that is where im from used to only play "modern" hard rock, but they had so little to play they had to switch to hard rock from the past few decades. idk what bands he thinks "evolved" from hard rock.

Article little to do with Hard Rock
I appreciate that this article is getting some much needed attention, but this history reads like a history of Heavy Metal and fails to mention Hard rock's relation... when this is an article about Hard rock. - Deathrocker 22:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

This may be right, but you see, there are two reasons why I'm focusing a little heavy metal: 1 - when you talk about bands such as Motley Crue, Judas Priest, Motorhead and sometimes Metallica there isn't a wall that separates Heavy Metal and Hard Rock, so why don't we talk about them a little? 2 - well, the only "pure hard rock" bands in the 1980s are Aerosmith, AC/DC, Guns N'Roses, KISS and Van Halen. But, in complex, there are a lot more bands in the Hard Rock scene.

Thank you for your attention,

--Hard Rock Thunder 09:44, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, dude hard rock gave birth to metal but especially the latter half is only about heavy metal. The fact that Deep Purple is still around has been left out and besides a couple of bands like Ugly Kid Joe haven't been mentioned at all. Not only that, Metallica has been a heavy metal band from day one and was never classified as hard rock. So at least stop referring to them like that. And besides, you're not focusing a little on metal but ONLY on metal! --Aksnitd 06:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Judas Priest is a pure heavy metal band, they CREATED the heavy metal look and are among those who created the music style heavy metal and it's decendant the new wave of heavy metal or as it's alternativley called, the new wave of british heavy metal.


 * not to mention aerosmith, ac/dc, guns 'n' roses, kiss and van halen were all termed 'heavy metal' in their heyday(s), so they're not 'pure hard rock' bands —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.110.223 (talk) 19:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hard Rock Is Still Popular
In the box on the side it states that the popularity of Hard Rock was less from 1990s on. This is true when it comes to contemporary music, but in the United States hard rock bands from the past are still immensely popular amongst today’s youth. Similar to the Grunge and Punk movements of the past, many of my peers are rejecting the mainstream music of today. Only unlike the Grunge and Punk movements, they are not turning to the sounds of a new genre, but rather to the popular genres from the past. This may be a result of the fact a new genre of rock n’ roll has not gained notoriety from a large fan base since Grunge of the early ‘90s. (unless you count bands like “Green Day”, who are viewed more as a pop rock band than punk rock band). This may be why Hard Rock is being used as an umbrella term for grunge, heavy metal, and punk. When teenagers look back at all the great bands from the past that sound so different from the “rock” of today, they want a term that can describe all of them. So, instead of saying that Hard Rock is on the decline, remember that there is still a modern fan base, just not any modern bands for them to follow.

Alright. So, what do you suggest I should write in the box?

--Hard Rock Thunder 12:25, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe, the popularity section of the box could be removed. Or, instead, a new section, that documents the recent resurgence of Hard Rock in today’s pop culture, could be added.

but notice also that it is a timeline. Yes people are fans of the bands from previos years, but there are no popular hard rock bands to put in the modern section. i think this is what it means by hard rock is not as popular.

bands like white stripes, wolfmother or comets on fire could all be included. also the darkness and gotthard

so nobody's even considered bands like buckcherry and saving abel? those guys are not only popular,they're INCREDIBLY popular. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.233.153.81 (talk) 01:57, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Link Wray
I noticed this article doesn't mention Link Wray at all. He more or less invented the power chord and was undoubtedly an influence on the guitar stylings of likes of Dave Davies and Pete Townshend. He definitely deserves a mention, but I'm just not sure where because the timeline starts with the '60s and he pre-dated that.--Lairor 03:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I read the article and I noticed he must me mentioned. I'll do it at once.

well, then mention the man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.196.226.70 (talk) 16:28, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Bassists
The third paragraph in the "Characteristics" section names several famous guitarists and drummers but no bassists. Does anybody think there should be a few bassists included in that section? Bshbass 20:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

- I definitely agree.

- I second that.

Done. HK51 21:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * As a bass player I heartily concur. Thanks to HK51. Raymond Arritt 00:21, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
This article contains lots of interesting material but needs quite a bit of work to improve its organization and grammar. I'll work on it from time to time -- please help if you can! Raymond Arritt 05:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Someone reverted the cleanup tag for this article but I've reinstated it. As noted above it's an interesting article but much of the writing is really bad -- vague, redundant, and in some places it doesn't even make sense. Raymond Arritt 22:33, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Singers
Where it lists prominent guitarists and drummers, it should contain a list of singers, as the singers of hard rock had very shrill voices. 17:06 October 8, 2006 Presidentjlh (UTC)

Done. I hope everyone else agrees with it being there. HK51 22:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Led Zeppelin...
I believe that the fact that Led Zeppelin be counted as a heavy metal band is wrong. I base this statement on the fact that: Most of their songs deviate from the definition of heavy metal. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gumdropster (talk • contribs) 19:47, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

That is a question that will be debated forever. I personally have mixed feelings on Zeppelin's categorization. I consider them Heavy Metal, yet a lot of their stuff was more blues and folk oriented and not quite metal. However, it's hard to categorize Led Zeppelin.

I don't think it's so important to categorize them strictly; their style is undoubtfully hard rock, yet they are to be considered a proto-metal band: they put the basis for heavy metal, but metal came later. If you think about Judas Priest, Rocka Rolla is pure hard rock, but Painkiller is generally seen as heavy metal, because the differences are huge. -- Ryuu33 (talk) 14:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Alice Cooper
It seems strange to call School's Out the first "shock rock" album, when it was preceded by Love It to Death and Killer ("Dead Babies"!), which both seem more in line with the term. -- Dan Clore


 * Yes you're right. There should be mentioned that they started shock rock already in 1971 with Love it to Death. And there is also said that "In 1972, heavy metal pioneer Alice Cooper...". There should be stated that Alice Cooper was band at that time and they were garage rock band actually. --ThirstyLick —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.250.73.96 (talk) 16:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * if anyone invented shock rock it was screaming lord sutch or even the monks, if not screaming jay hawkins —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.110.223 (talk) 16:17, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Black Rock
Let's face it. Hard Rock is mostly a good ol' boys club, despite the fact that rock has its roots in Black music (Chuck Berry anyone?) I think the fact that Living Colour had such wide success in the late 80s and early 90s in a genre dominated by White guys deserves some mention. Don't forget Funkadelic, Mother's Finest, Bad Brains, Fishbone, 24-7 Spyz, Sound Barrier, Follow For Now, King's X, Lucy Brown. (ALV)

Bad Brains is punk music and Fishbone is Alternative, neither are Hard Rock. And Rock has some of it's early roots in black music, not all. Incidentally, if you're going to cite Chuck Berry as an example, you should know that he was known for describing his style as an interpretation of Country Music...a "white" music genre which also contributed to the overall development of Rock. 74.69.64.52 (talk) 08:31, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Deep Purple
Despite being one of the first hard rock bands and still being around while most of their contemporaries have either disbanded or whatever, they are hardly mentioned other than a short mention of Ritchie Blackmore in the guitarist's section, neither is Ian Gillan or Ian Paice talked about anywhere in the whole article. Are we forgetting 'Child In Time' or 'Space Truckin'? --Aksnitd 06:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Also the album Deep Purple In Rock is not mentioned and it was one of the heaviest albums of the time in vocals guitar and drumming

-and they was doing the hard rock in the late 60s before led zeppelin : )-honkytonks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Honkytonks (talk • contribs) 03:46, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Influential Bands
Guys, I feel that nobody seems to mention who has influenced hard rock. I mean there is the begginning of the article which mentions Link Wray, Jimi Hendrix, early hard rock songs, etc. However, I felt that it was too brief.

Rock Soldier 19:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)==Examples== Can we come to some sort of consensus as to which guitarists/bass guitarists/drummers/singers get mentioned as examples? There were originally three examples in each catergory and over time anons and members alike have made the section look untidy by randomly adding and deleting their favourite hard rock guitarist/bass guitarist/drummer/singer etc. The section now feels far too listy and the amount of examples given is unnecessary.

My proposed examples for each:
 * Guitarist: Jimi Hendrix, Eddie Van Halen, Angus Young, Jimmy Page and Slash
 * Bass guitarist: Phil Lynott, John Deacon, Gene Simmons and Geddy Lee
 * Drummer: Cozy Powell, Tommy Lee and Roger Taylor
 * Lead singer: Robert Plant, Freddie Mercury, Bon Scott and Steven Tyler

ĤĶ51→Łalk 22:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

why doesn't someone mention the members of Black Sabbath, considering they are mentioned so much. (Person89 02:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC))


 * Cozy Powell was a member of Black Sabbath.
 * --Rock Soldier 19:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Guys, I think Axl Rose should be mentioned as an example of hard rock singer; his great talent and controversial behavior are typical of hard rock frontmen. And I think he has been the last great hard rock singer on the scene, when there were famous "hard rock" bands. In my opinion, another one we should mention is Ozzy Osbourne.
 * -- Ryuu33 (talk) 14:16, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

New Bands?
Why did the new bands section get deleted? i think it is important to know that Hard Rock is still being performed, the way this article is written it seems like it is a dead genre, but the two bands mentioned in that section (Top-Hat Mafia and Billy Talent) are prime examples of Hard Rock.

I, too, am disappointed that it got deleted. Velvet Revolver was a perfect example of how hard-rock still retains some popularity. I definetely think that we should be adding a section regarding hard-rock in the current era.Ags Rule 18:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous, who keeps deleting things on new bands? whoever it is isnt very helpfulTubyboulin 17:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Heavy Metal
Shouldn't someone mention that heavy metal is a form of hard rock rather than a different genre?

False? 1337ninjajesus 05:40, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree, Heavy Metal is a type of hard rock, it is the same with Punk och Grunge. But personally I dont think there actually is a genre that could be distinguished as hard rock. There is rock, it could be played hard ocr soft, slow or fast. And the there is the subgenres heavy metal, punk, grunge etc.

The three subgenres mentioned distingueshes them selves from rock because of their obvious charachterics: vocals, clothes, lyrics, influences for example. Especially the singer must have some power. You cant sing like Morrisey in Smiths in Heavy Metal. But Hard Rock? Could somebody explain what are the typical hard rock look for example? The typical hard rock art of singing? Or the typical Hard Rock lyrics and themes? Typical hard rock gimmicks? Typical hard rock fans? And look at the books written. There are some that explains Heavy Metal genre, but Hard Rook? Is there any books about Hard Rock genre? So far I can see, there are some books which instructs musicians with the title "Hard rock" in it, and that includes Judas, Ozzy, Ac /DC.--80.216.181.220 09:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

You know we have a problem when Guns N Roses is not mentioned in this article
Fix this please Jungle999 21:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The article cites GnR's Appetite for Destruction being popular in 1987. However, A4D did not catch on for at least another year (I know -- I saw them open for Motley Crue on the Girls-Girls-Girls tour and virtually no one knew who they were). Also, if you check the A4D wiki article, it notes that only 500,000 copies were sold after the first year. This is significant considering it has gone Diamond with over 26 million copies sold! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.33.58.11 (talk) 20:03, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Blue Cheer et al
Here is a band that was influenced by Cream and Jimi Hendrix and was one of the first power trios. And if not meandering in soloing on guitar and drums is a condition they are the first power trio. Yet they aren't mentioned in this article. Please explain... On the more psychedelic side of the spectrum there are bands like Iron Butterfly and Vanilla Fudge. The latter were an influence on Deep Purple. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Efrasnel (talk • contribs) 18:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If you see a problem with the article, go ahead and edit it. Be bold. 74.77.222.188 (talk) 07:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

idk why blue cheer isnt mentioned, maybe because nobody mentioned them? they are over at stoner rock —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.110.223 (talk) 21:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Differentiation from heavy metal section needs cleanup.
Although the whole article has this problem, in particular the section discussing differences between hard rock and heavy metal is vague and informal. Note the conversational style and imprecise word choice of these paragraphs especially: "From a musical point of view, heavy metal tends to interpret the basic syncopated jazz rhythm of an eight and two sixteenth carried on a ride cymbal with a swing feel down to the bass line with a literal "straight up" feel. Thus the "dum da da dum da da dum" bass line is a standard basis for the heavy metal sound as heard, for example, in Black Sabbath's song "Heaven and Hell" during the verses, or in Iron Maiden's song "Flight of Icarus", or also Dio's "Holy Diver". Another good example is to listen to the difference between how the song "Helter Skelter" is played by the original writers, The Beatles, and the interpretation as played by Mötley Crüe.

The primary difference between glam metal and heavy metal is in lyrics, image and melody. Heavy metal lyrical content extends from "reality lament" tone of blues, discussing serious, provocative or philosophical ideas. Heavy metal image usually sports "macho" black leather, dark clothing or punk-influenced dressing with leather jackets and jeans. Melodies and the whole music in general are generally not "catchy" and pop-influenced as glam metal. Glam metal (in some cases referred to as "hair metal"), on the other hand, extends from its more "fantasy escapist" tones of pop music, and the lyrics tends to focus more on parties, having a good time, and relationships. The image of these bands are huge, teased hairs, outrageous outfits and a lot of make up. (Note: do not confuse with power metal, which is "fantasy escapist" in the sense that the lyrics deal with such fantastical subjects as magic and classical myth)." -- Kevin Browning 21:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Is hard rock a genre?
Let's face it. Hard rock is not an official genre. It's a term that people keep handy when they want to describe any loud, riff-based guitar music that doesn't fit easily into an established genre like metal or punk. Alternately, it's an umbrella term for any loud, riff-based guitar music, including metal, punk, grunge, some Southern rock and some prog rock. Either way, it's not really a distinct genre so much as a lumping category. And there is far less consensus about the boundary between hard rock and heavy metal than the article suggests. It's a boundary that has shifted over time. Many of the groups that the article claims are generally considered hard rock have in fact been closely associated with metal for a long time--especially Van Halen and AC/DC. And Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, and Black Sabbath were among the first groups to be called heavy metal. That's simply historical fact. Just because the genre has evolved doesn't mean we have to reclassify the first wave of artists--do we say Chuck Berry isn't rock simply because rock music today sounds very different? But of course this is just my opinion, and I'm aware that there are many people who do not consider those '70s artists to be "true" metal. The point is that there's no established consensus on this matter, and if you actually pay attention to the way the term "hard rock" is used by the music press, it is much vaguer than the article implies. marbeh raglaim (talk) 04:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Arguable. Heavy metal is basically hard rock except for the fact hard rock is more rhythmic than metal. Thundermaster TRUC 15:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

You state that like it's a fact. It isn't. "Hard rock" is a vague term that means many different things to many different people. It has no official definition. marbeh raglaim (talk) 17:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree with you. I can show articles from the 70s and the 80s describing AC/DC, KISS and Led Zeppelin (or any other group today classified as hard rock) as being heavy metal bands. The groups today classified as hard rock are as much as heavy metal than those classified so, it is just that there are various sorts of heavy metal. For me, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Cactus, Blue Öyster Cult, Alice Cooper and that kind of groups are " Early metal ". At the end of the 70s and at the beginning of the 80s arrived "Classic Metal": Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Motörhead, Scorpions, AC/DC, Ozzy Osbourne, Saxon, Accept, etc. Yes, I classify AC/DC here, because it is the same fan base, the same look (jeans, biker look), the same world. Certainly, Iron Maiden can be faster than AC/DC, but Genesis is different from Yes, and both are classified as progressive rock. There is also "hair metal", created by KISS, Van Halen and Def Leppard and dominated in the 80s by Mötley Crüe, Poison, WASP, Europe, Winger, Twisted Sister, Bon Jovi, Ratt, Quiet Riot, etc. I also put Guns N' Roses in the "hair metal" section. The other subgenres, like thrash metal or death metal, are, I think, less controversial and easier to describe, so I think there is no need to describe them myself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.203.228.61 (talk) 06:56, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Kiss = Hard rock not metal
That point is arguable. Kiss are heavy metal/glam metal also and therefore fit into heavy metal. Thundermaster TRUC 15:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

i agree with that guy KISS is and always will be a heavy metal/glam metal group, so they fit into both. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.225.25.37 (talk) 04:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

How exactly is Kiss a Heavy Metal band? I don't even consider a lot of their work hard rock. I just throw them in the general rock category. marnues (talk) 20:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

wtf is general rock? frankly ive never heard of it.and KISS is metal because they play loud riff based music tthat scares parents, KISS is also in the documentary decline of western civilization II:the Metal years do they are there for metal. and they are considered by many to be be a pioneeer of heavy metal music. learn yopur KISStory before you say shit about KISS 71.17.159.25 (talk) 00:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I don't like pissing off KISS fans, because they rarely shut up. But I will take this gamble anyway. KISS did more pop, glam and disco stuff individually than they did classic, hard rock and heavy metal combined. Their costumes might look vaguely like they belong in a metal band, but just compare KISS to Thin Lizzy or Motörhead or Led Zeppelin, and you will see just how little they resemble actual Hard Rock. Thanks AlexRochon (talk) 19:02, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Listen to creatures of the night an tell me there not metal.. you cant. and you are right you cant stop KISS fans. and the influenced Megadeth and Pantera for fuck sakes take a hint theyre metal. Zakkman (talk) 22:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd say KISS is Glam Metal. I generally remember Motörhead and Led Zeppelin for their Heavy Metal influence, and as such don't think they're extremely suitable comparisons to a Glam Metal band. I'd suggest looking at KISS alongside... uh... I'll go with a minor gamble here and say Quiet Riot. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one. (Albert Mond (talk) 09:50, 14 January 2009 (UTC))

KISS are a heavy metal band with a lot of classic rock n' roll influences, mostly on their first albums. On the first 3 albums, they sound like a mix of Black Sabbath, Slade, Led Zeppelin and New York Dolls. By mixing a catchy and basic form of heavy metal with the glam rock look and image, they were the very first glam metal band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.203.99.104 (talk) 02:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

You can't sing Eruption
I find it rather odd that Eddie Van Halen's Eruption is referred to in this article as a "song", when in fact, it's actually a guitar solo composition... with no singing involved whatsoever.

I think someone really should take a look at the main song article, and come up with more appropriate wording as it pertains. WikHead (talk) 02:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Lordi
What about the Finnish band Lordi?, they are hard rock i believe. Pathfinder2006 (talk) 11:52, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * They may be hard rock, but they are probably not notable enough for the hard rock article. Thanks for reading. Thundermaster (talk · contribs) 16:12, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think they should get a mention even if its small, as they where the first hard rock band to win the Eurovision song contest which tends to be full of pop melodies and what not. Pro66 (talk) 22:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Hard Rock made in ENGLAND
Origen england,NOT! america —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.248.44.241 (talk) 01:23, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Negative. The Hard Rock has emerged in Germany —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.23.212.154 (talk) 21:46, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Why is any of this necessary?
"Hard rock" seems like a good umbrella term, but it is by no means necessary for this article to have a timeline, let alone arguments about where "hard rock" started or a "Differentiation from Heavy Metal".

Guys. Relax. Cut it down. A lot. 69.196.132.213 (talk) 22:52, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Drums
The drums are important because they keep the rhythm? OH MY GOD! That's... revolutionary! Drums keeping rhythm in music? Who ever would have thought of that! It must be exclusive to hard rock because it certainly doesn't happen in every genre of music that has drums! Some guy (talk) 07:10, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

No Muse
Muse has issued out several of the best hard-rock songs in the last decade and no mention in the article. Songs like "New Born", "Stockholm Syndrome", "Assassin", "Hyper Music". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.2.150.3 (talk) 22:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Pop culture is more important than geology? Really?
Shouldn't this article be renamed hard rock music, and the hard rock article be about the geology and mining term? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.110.68.207 (talk) 08:58, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Define: Hard
In the first sentence of the article, it says that '[Hard Rock] is considerably harder than conventional rock music'. What?! This is the most useless phrase a definition of hard rock could have, imo... 80.6.39.106 (talk) 19:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

AC/DC
AC/DC does not play hard rock, they play rock'n'roll...not to doubt anyones information, but they say themselves, rock'n'roll, not metal, not heavy rock. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.222.154.100 (talk) 02:58, 15 December, 2006 (UTC)


 * How did you come to that conclusion? AC/DC played a few rock and roll songs, but they are unmistakeably a hard rock band. Compare "Back in Black" with "Tutti Frutti" (by Little Richard) and you'll see what I mean. It doesn't really matter what the band thinks; they could call themselves a gangsta rap ensemble and the music press would still consider them hard rock. ĤĶ51→Łalk 19:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

While AC/DC always consider themselves rock 'n' roll, they are properly classified as hard rock. Just by listening, one can discern they have a fair amount in common with bands like Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple, both of whom are prime examples of hard rock.--Aksnitd 14:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

they are also Aussies, therefore associating different connotations to words and phrases, like equating "rock and roll" to a good time or good music, not a musical genre. They might equate hard rock with a certain verisimilitude which the antics of Angus Young do not exhibit. Person89 02:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I completley agree with the above statement. They don't play rock 'n roll, they play general rock or hard rock. The are a bit more slow melodic and less based on long gutarr riffs to be labeled as absolute hard rock. At least they defenitivley don't play heavy metal. Hard rock tends to be easier and more drums wheras AC/DC plays with more of a vocal based variation of rock, plus it's lots of bass drum in it which doesn't qualify it as a hard rock band, but then again I've been wrong before.

They are both hard rock and rock n' roll, but most of their later stuff is hard rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnnybritches (talk • contribs) 01:16, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Another thing about AC/DC...in the Third era section, you talk about Metallica, Bon Jovi and Aerosmith all winning Grammies. AC/DC have just won their first Grammy award! (About time, too.) Is that worth mentioning?122.110.43.230 (talk) 09:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)