Talk:Hardcore punk/Archive 2

Merge
I merged the funkcore article into the funk rock article. Prepare to be Mezmerized! :D 01:27, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Links
All of the links on this page seem to fit under the WP:LINKSTOAVOID category. Unless there's any major objections, I will remove them all in a few days time. hellboy (talk) 22:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * As there were no objections, links were removed hellboy (talk) 22:45, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Reverting to "The Original"
C'mon guys, all this is going to result in is the article being locked or something. To the person reverting back to the original, can you please justify why you are doing this, so we can move forward. hellboy (talk) 22:16, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Metalcore
wrote this before I knew better.
 * The thing is, the metalcore article was made for all metal-hardcore crossover genres, not only modern "melo-death" metalcore.--Kmaster (talk) 16:13, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

New York hardcore and "influence on other genres"
There should be a topic about New York Hardcore.

I added a paragraph to the "Influence on other genres" section discussing post-hardcore. Please critique. Ilikeartrock 01:24, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

New York is not mentioned enough. New York has been the center of hardcore since 1985. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.3.73 (talk) 01:10, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

What about John Peel's Peel Sessions?
What about Radio One DJ John Peel's Peel Sessions?

He was famous for promoting an underground hardcore punk music on the leading respectable national radio. Groups like Napalm Death, Extreme Noise Terror, Intense Degree, Doom, Dr and the Crippens etc were all featured on his peel sessions Metalosaurus (talk) 19:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Those are all metal bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.3.73 (talk) 01:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

All those bands are now considered metal in some sense however at the time they came out there were no such easy distinctions. An early incarnation of Napalm Death featured on Crass records Bullshit Detector for example and their sound was definitely not metal. Napalm Death at least were very much Punk in their attitude and their audiences reflected this. Personally I think Metalosaurus is definitely right in that there was a strong relationship between the UK hardcore (UK82 for you Americans?) and the thrash/crust scenes. To ignore this would be to omit a member of the hardcore family ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.134.163.83 (talk) 12:55, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Hatebreed and Sick Of It All
arguably the most successful hardcore punk bands. nothing much about them in this article. sort it out --Murkle (talk) 19:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If you feel this way then feel free to make a contribution, but I think there are plenty who would argue that Hatebreed are not really a hardcore punk band. hellboy (talk) 23:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

That's right Hatebreed is not Hardcore and Sick Of It All only played Hardcore on their first album.

Bullshit - they are two of the biggest hardcore bands ever.

Hatebreed should be at least included in the mainstream section. With Jamey Jasta doing headbangers ball, he attracted much attention to his band. I can't imagine another band that has sold more records worldwide than those guys, especially since they could reach more places than your average hardcore band. I'll see what I can do about this. Christmasjones25 (talk) 16:02, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

-core genres are forms of hardcore punk like genres ending in metal are forms of heavy metal.
Any musics ending in -core are all types or evolutions of hardcore punk the same way musics ending in metal are types or evolutions of Heavy Metal. When punk rock rose to fame and died into post-punk new-wave / dark-wave rock etc it was the hardcore punk movement that was born and revived punk into new realms. It seems that there is a new fad of naive metal fans who think they have stumbled on a new word and are inventing uses of -core genres wrongly into metal. It like calling horror punk as horror metal. Everyone knows that musics ending in metal are forms of heavy metal and get the metal ending from Heavy Metal the same way musics ending in -core get the core ending from Hardcore.

It is simple to tell metal and punk apart as metal is played technically challenging with lead breaks and timing etc of a proffessional high quality manner (or an attempt at least) where as punk is deliberately played to an un-proffessional manner (based mostly on three-cords). There is a good interview from 1989 made by the BBC titled "thrashed to death" where Tom Araya from the thrash metal group Slayer rightfully says - "anything much faster or more overboard than reign in blood makes no sense and crosses the line between metal & punk". http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WcjD9n4pafs&feature=related (starts about 2.45 into clip and finishes statement about 3.45) This is not meant disrespectfully as Tom loves and was influenced by punk but what he is referring to is that punk is not supposed to be structured like metal. Punk was started by amateur garage bands.

The original true meaning of the word Punk is 'dead wood (as was used to start fires)'. In other words it means no good or of poor quality. It was how the first punk rock bands got this name. When thrash metal (which although greatly influenced by the energy and sound of punk, it remained complex and structured metal) met hardcore punk it used to be called "crossover" and not thrashcore, metalcore, sludgecore etc etc. The slightest little tweek in sound and hey some young five minute fan is trying to call it a new genre. I guess to impress thes other silly little mates with great knowledge of music styles. I'm sorry but knowing thousands of silly genre names doesn't make you a bigger fan or show greater appreciation of the music


 * No, though what you say has merit its not all that simple. Punk did start as sloppier wile medal started more technically challenging but that was thirty years ago. Since then the lines have been blurred, there are crossovers and technically challenging punk bands as well as sloppier metal musicians. Its also to be noted that hardcore was an adjective before it was a form of music and its still used as an adjective today, so lots of genres were named from that. Genres like Slowcore and Sadcore have essentially no connection to hardcore even with the suffix. Metalcore is a form of metal, not hardcore though it incorporates aspects of the later. Also I'm almost sure that the early punks did not know the original meaning of the word. They just knew it was an insult and took the name from there. I'm sure the people who coined the geek squad don't know the original meaning of geek either. Stuart 68.161.121.165 (talk) 21:01, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Thats my point. Like Heavy Metal spanned into Speed "Metal", Power "Metal", "Symphonic "Metal", Thrash "Metal", Death "Metal" etc etc Hardcore spanned into "-core" genres (speed metal etc are all styles / sub genres of heavy metal). NWOBHM was influenced greatly by the energy of Punk at the time and thrash metal was greatly influenced from Hardcore at the time. Neither were a crossover / fusion genre as both NWOBHM & thrash remained metal structurly. When Napalm Death first surfaced they were alongside groups like Extreme Noise Terror, Dr & the Crippens & Intense Degree and often got cover together on Radio DJ John Peel's "Peel sessions". It was all genred as Hardcore back then. They were all Hardcore bands who admitted to having Heavy Metal influences the same way thrash bands admitted to having punk influences. I remember as I used to have the records and listen to the shows etc. Back then I can remember many unbrella terms such as Skatecore (Intense Degree). Crustcore - later giving rise to Grindcore via Napalm Death, rapcore (a few early hardcore acts such as Suicidal Tendencies who used raps as vocal over hardcore punk music. I remember well as I was massively into the skate scene and these terms were majorly connected. Thrasher magazine who often give a way free records of such artists. I was also greatly into the metal scene so I saw both sides of the fan base. Many metal fans throught groups such as Napalm Death were metal and when Napalm Death used the term "grindcore" in interviews and groups like Biohazard and Pantera spoke about having massive hardcore influences the metal fans started using the term -core as a metal ending. Its like punks who know nothing about metal who hear some metal groups and mistake them as punk and start calling punk genres as - metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.213.52 (talk) 09:13, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

To add to this all -core genres were not seperate genres but just variants of Hardcore. i.e. skatecore was still hardcore it just appealled to skaters and sang lyrics about skating i.e. the song 'Skate bored'. Rapcore was still hardcore it just chanted in a rap style street lyric. i.e. Suicidal Tendencies song 'Join the Army'. Suicidal Tendencies were Hardcore / Crossover but also skatecore & rapcore (who later went thrash metal for a few albums). crustcore was hardcore that appealled to crusties - dreadlocked scruffy squatter anarcho-punks. Emocore were originally hardcore groups and Grindcore was started by Napalm Death who were originally from a hardcore scene inspired by metal (like crustcore) and not a metal scene inspired by punk. Not really man. I think a lot of "core" bands have a much stronger vein in "heavy metal" then they do in "hardcore punk". Again, a "hardcore" article needs to be created, seperate from "hardcore punk." Not all hardcore bands, both old and new, are rooted in punk.--Omair00 (talk) 05:24, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

Sludge metal
Shouldn't sludge metal be mentioned in this article ? Gothbag (talk) 02:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

sludge is definetly covered in the part where crowbar and all that is mentioned —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.182.61 (talk) 07:31, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.211.217.229 (talk) 06:57, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Question 2
What about Warzone, Cro-mags, and maybe Madball? who ever wrote this question I love you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.182.61 (talk) 07:32, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Question
Why does this article have almost nothing to do with what Hardcore Punk is? Ive read through it and i gleamed plenty about its history, but nothing about what Hardcore Punk is musicially.

I came to Wikipedia looking for that information. IM dissapointed to find that, once again, Wikipedia has let me down.

Can someone please add some information usefull to the article such as what it is rather than splitting hairs over who did what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.68.234.255 (talk) 05:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This article is helpful if your familiar with a majority of the bands and genres rediscussed through the explanation of hardcore's history. I'm surprised something as big as hardcore punk wouldn't have gotten a "this article includes jargon" by now, a more thorough explanation of all the aspects of this article is needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.51.140.214 (talk) 05:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

There is much more here about non-hardcore bands (Melvins, Extreme Noise Terror) than actual hardcore bands. Music made after 1984 is almost non-existent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.3.73 (talk) 01:11, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Hardcore is a lifestyle as well as music. The music is usually heavy cut and dry prison style music, although there is no actual music theory behind what hardcore music is. One undeniable aspect that "most" but not all hardcore music shares is the "beatdown" a beatdown is a musical point of emphasis on what the lyricist has said. The way a beatdown emphasizes this is by unwarrantedly and abruptly cutting the tempo of the music in half this abrupt slow change in speed often causes people to stomp around and jump off of stages and people this violent excitement is referred to as "moshing" which is a term that came from the moshing of grapes which sometimes it may appear that people are "moshing" on invisible grapes, this however is no joke as people often get kicked and punched and fights often break out that result in mob attacks. another issue with hardcore are the crews people who are involved in crews are brothers and when there is an altercation it often escalates beyond the hardcore scene. Hardcore crews are very similar to the existance of biker gangs with the exception that "most" but not all hardcore crews do not make any money. Often at shows where a crew from one area comes to a show where there is a rival crew, the show will almost always end up in a brawl, hardcore brawls do not only revolve around the music it revolves outside of the music as well, because it is a way of life similar to that of football hooligans(soccer hooligans) people are attracted to hardcore because hardcore is about standing up for ourselves,our believes, our friends,and never letting anyone bring you down to your knees. This is why hardcore scenes are often families, and within those families are even closer families that are part of a crew that has kept in touch with all the people who built that scene and these crews are the ones who generally make the rules for that scene, unless a tougher crew comes in and makes different rules. The crew acts as security as well as governing body of the scene, they make their own rules and most crews have even gone so far as to beat up police who try to shut down their shows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.182.61 (talk) 07:58, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

hXc
Someone needs to fix the article so that when someone searches "hXc", "Hardcore Punk" doesn't come up. hXc does NOT mean Hardcore Punk. It just means "Hardcore", and is often accosiated metalcore bands, like As I Lay Dying, Suicide Silence, etc.

If you don't change it, we at least need to add something about how it's changed over the years. And how the term "hXc" is no longer associated with Hardcore punk much anymore.


 * I would agree that there is a definite difference between "hardcore" and "hardcore punk." Dead Kennedys do NOT sound much like, say, Bane. However I don't think "Hardcore" is the same thing as Metalcore, hence the "metal" prefix. This article hardly even mentions New York Hardcore.


 * I think the term "Hardcore Punk" definitely merits its own article, but the distinction should me made between it and "hardcore." I would prefer to see the term "hardcore" have its own article as well. Emceelane (talk) 04:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Hardcore is short for Hadcore punk. Bands like I Lay Dying are Metalcore. By the way Hardcore is a more straightforward form of punk. In this way, it was much more purist punk and it didn't include "a wide range of sounds" (as the article states) in comparison to the first wave of punk and new wave.

Someone needs to fix the article so that when someone searches "hXc", "Hardcore Punk" doesn't come up. hXc does NOT mean Hardcore Punk. It just means "Hardcore", and is often accosiated metalcore bands, like As I Lay Dying, Suicide Silence, etc.

If you don't change it, we at least need to add something about how it's changed over the years. And how the term "hXc" is no longer associated with Hardcore punk much anymore.


 * I would agree that there is a definite difference between "hardcore" and "hardcore punk." Dead Kennedys do NOT sound much like, say, Bane. However I don't think "Hardcore" is the same thing as Metalcore, hence the "metal" prefix. This article hardly even mentions New York Hardcore.


 * I think the term "Hardcore Punk" definitely merits its own article, but the distinction should me made between it and "hardcore." I would prefer to see the term "hardcore" have its own article as well. Emceelane (talk) 04:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Hardcore is short for Hadcore punk. Bands like I Lay Dying are Metalcore. By the way Hardcore is a more straightforward form of punk. In this way, it was much more purist punk and it didn't include "a wide range of sounds" (as the article states) in comparison to the first wave of punk and new wave.

I totally agree. Distinguishing between "Hardcore Punk" and "Hardcore" is just perpetuating a semantic confusion that has no basis in the evolution of these genres. Hardcore is short for Hardcore Punk, and the current confusion seems to stem from groups incorporating metal influences in the late eighties wanting to retain some credibility as a punk band (Coverge routinely refers to their shows as punk rock shows), along with the second wave of hardcore (youth crew etc), becoming increasingly formulaic and aggressive. I think a case could also be made for hardcore merging with metal as a result of the simultaneous consolidation of "emotional" strains of hardcore during the nineties. The problem in ordering the articles is that there is such widespread confusion regarding these genres. People insert arbitrary distinctions between "punk" and "punk rock" as well as "hardcore" and "hardcore punk" without regard to the development of genres. My suggestion would be along the lines of the second poster, that we do not create a seperate "hardcore" article, but clarify the development of the term and the confusion surrounding it in a new section.
 * I disagree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.60.80.54 (talk) 04:19, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree Im glad some people who actually know what hardcore is are finally writing up here, im so sick and tired of metalcore bands like emmure, and suicide silence being referred to as hardcore, it makes true hardcore look so stupid when people confuse the term and think metalcore has anything to do with hardcore, furthermore punk bands like flipper, bad brains, m.d.c, ssd, and black flag ARE NOT HARDCORE, they are just punk bands that led to the development of hardcore in the 90's but are not hardcore, thats why they are strictly "hardcore punk" bands. Harcore punk is to hardcore, the same as disco and funk are to gangster rap. With that being made clear hardcore was not created until the 90's so please let wikipedia finally get that one straight —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.182.61 (talk) 08:09, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Seminal Brazilian Hardcore punk
I feel the lack of mention to the seminal Brazilian scene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.56.30.10 (talk) 21:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The only band I know of from Brazil is Sepultura. If you think that this page is lacking specific information on the scene, then you might be the best one to add it, but don't forget to add references.  hellboy (talk) 23:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Ratos de Porão (Portuguese for "Basement Rats") but they are more crossover thrash. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.236.213.52 (talk) 07:19, 4 February 2009 (UTC) sepultra definetly definetly is not hardcore, further more brazil has not done anything for the hardcore movement as a whole and if anything needs its own page, if youre going to talk about brazillian hardcore why not mention canadian hardcore, or german hardcore, or porto rican hardcore, or cuban hardcore, hardcore is all over the world buddy, and most scenes outside of new york, virginia beach, richmond virginia, boston, florida, new jersey, and rhode island, and california dont even have real hardcore scenes they are just goofy little metal scenes where people call themselves hardcore —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.182.61 (talk) 08:14, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Emo
Er, why does it say SDRE is the first emo band? I'd say that Moss Icon is; SDRE was the first one to have the indie emo style. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.189.82 (talk • contribs) 6:34, 11 May 2008 rites of spring was the first official emo band because the term came about describing that band, so how can ANY other band be the first emo band? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.182.61 (talk) 08:17, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Hm. That statement is given a source, but I personally think that the statement is BS. SDRE started out years after bands like Rites of Spring and Moss Icon did. At the very least, SDRE was the first emo band to gain recognition outside underground music circles. TheLetterM (talk) 16:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

This page
Has some serious problems. Its soley focused on 'the little things'. New York Hardcore barely gets a mention here. Instead it seems to be obsessed with tiny influences of the genre, near unknown bands and the offshoots that don't really link much. I mean, CBGBs was the cradle of hardcore punk, along with bands touring from washington and NewYork, and the only real mentions there are Black Flag, Bad Brains and Minor Threat. I'd view Agnostic Front as having much prominance (Black Flag can't be considered 'Hardcore' until 81 when Rollins started lead vocals.). Also, this is just about all based on the sources of one journalist. Try excanding that. 86.145.189.29 (talk) 15:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, this page needs a revamp badly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.143.209.21 (talk) 09:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

obviously this page is going to have problems because hardcore is so underground, and wikipedia is just barely learning what hardcore is, but I agree, all the stupid little things about punk bands, and metal bands need to be taken off and keep it strictly hardcore. And although black flag, and minor threat influenced early hardcore those are still punk rock bands they definetly are not bands like death threat, and next step up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.182.61 (talk) 08:21, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

2000s and the current state of hardcore
The entire 2000s section of this article makes mention only of bands who seem out of touch and having little relevancy to hardcore. I'm a fan of both, but I don't think most people would consider Rise Against and AFI to represent 2000's hardcore. What about BANE? American Nightmare? Have Heart? Modern Life is War? All of the bands I just mentioned and many more have Wikipedia articles on them and represent the Hardcore scene of the 2000s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.160.133.224 (talk) 17:40, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

NEW SCHOOL HARDCORE?
bands like comeback kid, have heart, verse, bane, american nightmare, etc. aren't mentioned on this page? surely bands that play this music has played a part it making what hardcore is today? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Himynameisnick (talk • contribs) 02:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

THOSE BANDS ARE POPCORE I MADE THAT TERM UP BUT THOSE BANDS DO NOT REPRESENT HARDCORE, AND I WOULD HATE FOR PEOPLE TO THINK THAT IS WHAT HARDCORE SOUNDS LIKE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.182.61 (talk) 09:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

You have no clue what in the world your even talking about. This is exactly what hardcore sounds like and what it has evolved to over the years. Pat Flynn (vocalist for the former band Have Heart, since you have no clue what hardcore is) was arguably one of the best lyricists that has been in the hardcore scene in the past decade at least. Get it straight and stop listening to the radio. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Under dogs13 (talk • contribs) 19:00, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Hardcore versus Hardcore Punk - IMPORTANT
I think Hardcore and Hardcore Punk are two different genres. New York helped develop the "Hardcore" scene, not the "Hardcore Punk" scene. We need to make a seperate article for Hardcore. It shouldn't redirect to "Hardcore Punk." You can reach me at my email: omairsd@gmail.com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.60.80.54 (talk) 00:44, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

"Hardcore" in this context is a diminutive of "hardcore punk." It was later shortened to "hardcore".76.71.36.11 (talk) 02:31, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

This is the best article on hardcore wikipedia has had so far so i am definetly greatful, however there could be some changes such as The importance of New York changing "hardcore punk" from the 80's to "hardcore" in the 90's needs to be mentioned for sure also there really is a major distinction between hardcore and hardcore punk where as hardcore is something that was formed in the 90's that grew out of the 80's hardcore punk scene

The discussion of LA Punk in the 80s should definitely mention X. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.93.77.171 (talk) 08:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The dichotomy between hardcore punk and hardcore is about as effective as the one between thrashcore and crossover. Sort of like saying "This is rocksteady, *not* reggae," it's ineffectual. Musically, they are all variations of the same format. Hardcore is a dynamic living style that has simply resulted in many derivatives over the years. The political and lifestyle elements cannot be understated--sorry for anyone who thinks Hardcore is not political--and this is really what ties such seemingly disconnected acts as KRS-ONE and Inside Out together. To say that NYHC is not Hardcore punk is preposterous since it virtually ignores the entire period NYHC from 1982 (Bad Brains ROIR) -1992 (Agnostic Front's last show before disbanding for the first time). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Därthhead69 (talk • contribs) 04:06, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

NOFX
What's with the random bit about NOFX's 1983 demo down there in the "mid-1980's" section? Always thought 1983 was considered "early 1980's". And why is there like 2 whole paragraphs on it? NOFX was barely even a factor in the hardcore movement as it is so what's with that? Neither Black Flag, Bad Brains, or Minor Threat etc are mentioned that much, and THEY are why this article even exists in the first place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheoFleury89 (talk • contribs) 14:26, 5 July 2013‎
 * Hi, I have removed that passage which was apparently taken from NOFX (poorly so, too, since the refs appeared as [10] instead of proper footnotes). benzband  ( talk ) 13:41, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Heavy Metal Not an Influence
Heavy Metal is absolutely not an influence on Hardcore Punk. No one really associate thick, doom-y riffs with punk, I hope.

Sure. Even though heavy metal was an influence for a number of early 1980s UK hardcore bands. There are no traces of heavy metal in traditional american hardcore at all. And the only source on the page doesn't make sense. Even if heavy metal influenced some of early hardcore punk it still doesn't mean that heavy metal should be mentioned in stylistic origins — keep it only for particular subgenres. And why there are no thrash metal in derivative/fusion genres? Thrash metal is clearly hardcore/heavy metal fusion. It can be proven by ears, lots of sources and is mentioned on thrash metal Wiki-page itself 81.25.53.125 (talk) 07:53, 11 September 2014 (UTC)