Talk:Hardcore punk/Archive 3

The Middle Class
No mention of the Middle Class? Ludicrous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.117.7.237 (talk) 07:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Druff (talk) 23:32, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Double agreed. I've put it in. Also, why is there no mention of Wire's influence on Minor Threat? Pink Flag is clearly a major tributary of hardcore.-  Metalello  talk 19:03, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I have added Middle Class to the start of the history section, given that Steven Blush calls "Out of Vogue" the first west coast hc record.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 01:20, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Lets start the long list of bands
I am a rare Wikipedia editor. When I feel it particularly necessary, I do. This is my second time.

1) I added the following descriptive linked constructs: "self-determination, class conflict and injustice."

So the list now reads: "The songs are usually short, fast, and loud, covering topics such as: politics, personal freedom, self-determination, fascism, class conflict, authority, violence, injustice, social alienation, straight edge, vegetarianism, veganism, war, religion, drugs and the hardcore subculture itself.[2][3][4]"

2) Additionally, I added a short list of groups, that is the most overlooked part of the whole thing.

"Among them were: Bold, Gorilla Biscuits, Side By Side, Breakdown, Trip 6, Warzone and Youth of Today."

Even before the issue of who was the most influential, who was real hardcore or the difference between hardcore and hardcore punk. How derivative hardcore is from punk in lyrics and music. So how about we make a long list of bands and then debate each ones merits to the genre. My edit was summarily over posted with the extra and around the vegetarian part.

I WANTED TO SEE A LIST OF BANDS WHEN I GOT TO THE PAGE! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.224.5.134 (talk) 20:44, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


 * See List of hardcore punk bands.Spylab (talk) 05:12, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey Spylab, nice links list... One band I am looking for music from (I had it on cassette tape) is "Life's Blood" (east coast), they were really great. Any thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.224.5.134 (talk) 23:57, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is not a forum for general discussion of hardcore music. Please limit your comments or questions to improving the article.  Thank you. --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  01:21, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

LIST OF ACTUAL HARDCORE BANDS: COLD AS LIFE, STOUT, FURY OF FIVE, DEATH THREAT, DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR, WARZONE, WARHEAD, DEADAHEAD, BLOOD FOR BLOOD, BLOODY SUNDAY, CRO MAGS, BILLY CLUB SANDWICH, TRAPPED UNDER ICE, NAYSAYER, MADBALL, AGNOSTIC FRONT, FROSTBITE, MORE TO PRIDE, COLD WORLD, MERAUDER, SHEER TERROR, FIRST BLOOD, TERROR, KIDS LIKE US, DMIZE, OUTBURST, OUTBREAK, NO REDEEMING SOCIAL VALUE, ALPHA AND OMEGA, BOXCUTTER, INFEST, NEXT STEP UP, HARSH TRUTH, BIOHAZARD, RAMPAGE, BARFIGHT, GO IT ALONE, BULLDOZE, WEEKEND NACHOS, HOODS, DONNYBROOK,  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.11.182.61 (talk) 09:34, 21 February 2011 (UTC) Don't forget about NJ BLOODLINE and LIFE OF AGONY — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.53.3.212 (talk) 02:59, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Heavy Metal and Its importance
Musially, hardcore punk was a response to the speed and aggression imposed by the groups of metal influenced by the energy of punk rock. The sound of these groups is known as the speed metal of the mid-1970s, starting to the NWOBHM movement in the 1980s ... These groups are Motorhead and Judas Priest. (Mago266 (talk) 05:47, 10 November 2009 (UTC))

new hardcore
correct me if i'm wrong, but this article seems to hardly make any mention of hardcore from the late 90's on. surely bands like bane, maybe have heart, ceremony, or even the new wave of nyhc influenced bands like trapped under ice, naysayer, etc should be mentioned. the current state of hardcore is widespread and diverse, and i think it deserves representation.-unsigned
 * Agreed this needs a 2000's section Jonjonjohny (talk) 21:50, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Hardcore punk
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Hardcore punk's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "terrorizer": From Crust punk: "Powerviolence: The Dysfunctional Family of Bllleeeeaaauuurrrgghhh!!." Terrorizer no. 172. July 2008. p. 36-37. From Thrashcore: "Powerviolence: The Dysfunctional Family of Bllleeeeaaauuurrrgghhh!!". Terrorizer no. 172. July 2008. p. 36-37. 

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 21:18, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Thrash Metal
Why is it a derivative genre rather than a fusion one? Theburning25 (talk) 02:36, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I would not consider Thrash Metal as a derivative genre of Hardcore, that belongs to Heavy Metal, and the fusion between the two, Crossover Thrash, is already mentioned in the Infobox. If it's true Hardcore has influenced Thrash metal, it would be incorrect to consider it a sub-genre. As stated in the main article: "Metallica and Slayer, pioneers of the heavy metal subgenre thrash metal, were influenced by a number of hardcore bands". Raxhonp (talk) 21:12, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Bearing that in mind I'd like to move it from the "derivative genres" section - any objections? If there are any objections, cites would be good. 82.44.14.26 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:53, 2 September 2010 (UTC).

STYLE change
I revamped the style/sound since I believe the emphasis on musical style is a major feature of the hardcore scene. In order to do this, I listened to the back catalogs of many of the bands and presented an unbiased factual representation of the sound in academic language.

I took the earliest possible bands identified with the hardcore movement and analyzed their styles and presented the best description of THOSE bands, while recognizing that the sound has changed over the years. being that no two hardcore bands back then sounded the same, I compared each and found similar elements.

As for references I really wasn't sure how to reference what something sounds like, perhaps an audio recording??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christmasjones25 (talk • contribs) 05:38, 15 August 2010 (UTC) oh this was me the whole time, forgot to sign Christmasjones25 (talk) 05:41, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Why I am moving the electronic section
All the other subsections state directly how hardcore punk influenced those genres, while this section states how various genres influenced by hardcore punk have influenced music. It's unnecessary and belongs on the pages of those genres, not this one. The post-hardcore page almost has a copy and paste of the exact same wording, I am going to merge the two of them to that page.Hoponpop69 (talk) 22:20, 2 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I let the first half of the edit stand, the second half of the section directly mentions hardcore itself so I put it back in.--3family6 (talk) 20:10, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

However none of the sources do. I left in half of that half with a tag added.Hoponpop69 (talk) 21:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Restored the bit about Nintendocore, though it's smaller now. It has two sources for hardcore.--3family6 (talk) 00:24, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

The source for that mentions hardcore not hardcore punk, as you can see Hardcore can mean various different types of music.Hoponpop69 (talk) 16:56, 6 May 2011 (UTC)


 * No indication that the refs are talking about techno or hip hop.--3family6 (talk) 20:34, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

AFI isn't hardcore.
I'm not an AFI fan but judging from the music I've heard someone can hardly place them in this article. If anything they're simply alternative rock. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. What We Have Here Is A Failure To Communicate 19:16, 29 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by DragonBallNerd (talk • contribs)

AFI started as a hardcore punk band and changed their sound to alt rock based sound on the album 'Sing the Sorrow' Rosscowderoy (talk) 19:14, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Hatecore
This has been redirected here owing to a lack of referencing. A quick look on Google Books got me 518 separate hits, which suggests significance. However, almost all of the ones I looked at were using the term "hatecore" to refer to neo-Nazi groups. I suggest that either a new article is created using these sources, or a redirect to Rock Against Communism may be more appropriate. Either way we can add a footnote somewhere about the alternative, and less significant, usage of the term. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 11:12, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The German Wiki seems better referenced: here. Many of the Google Books refs also appear to be in German. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 11:17, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Labels
Hey guys, I'm thinking of making a new section for the page that tracks influential/notable record labels in the past 40 years that sign and promote hardcore bands. I think it would create good references for people and could point them into the direction of where to find more hardcore bands they have not heard of before. Where do you think would be a good spot to place this section?Tjp1991 (talk) 17:04, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Whats the difference between Metalcore, Hardcore Punk, and Screamo
Just wondering, please reply on my talk page using a basic explanation, because this has always confused me Ericdeaththe2nd (talk) 16:30, 23 April 2012 (UTC)ericdeaththe2ndEricdeaththe2nd (talk) 16:30, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Metalcore is the combination of punk and metal, sounds more slower and heavier. Hardcore Punk is a faster version of punk rock. Hardcore songs are faster, heavier, screamed vocals, with guitar solos. Screamo is a dead term that nobody uses anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.5.142.182 (talk) 00:54, 30 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Yep. You may also wish to consult Wikipedia's articles on Metalcore (a subgenre of heavy metal combining various elements of extreme metal and hardcore punk), Hardcore punk (a generally faster, thicker, and heavier version of the original punk rock) and Screamo (a subgenre of hardcore punk which predominantly evolved from emo). benzband  ( talk ) 19:47, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

distorted electric guitar
why do I think we should put "distorted electric guitar" in the infobox? Isn't is obvious? Yes it is obvious to hardcore fans, but your great Aunt Gertrude will not necessarily know. I think it is helpful for newbies to the music.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 20:58, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Distortion is a technique, not an instrument.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 01:44, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Beatdown Hardcore / Heavy Bands???
where is beatdown hardcore?...this is a legit subgenre of hardcore...The orginator of this subgenre are Bulldoze from NYC scene.Beatdown is created and played mostly for hardcore dancing in a "mosh pit", which can be a violent activity involving high impact body contact (and some physical risk). The style emerged during the late 1980s/early 1990s in the northeastern United States, with most bands being part of the "NYHC" scene. It is stylistically different from hardcore punk, and is generally "heavier". Thick distortion and downtuned guitars are part of the beatdown guitar sound, something which creates a metal effect that further sets beatdown apart from punk rock, like the majority of modern HC bands.Also the genre take influences from hip-hop culture and brutal death metal chug riffs.But unlike Deathcore the style are much less abrasive genre. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.21.182.2 (talk) 23:53, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Buzzcocks???
wow absolutely no mention of the Buzzcocks, even though they already had the what would become hardcore sound down by 1977/78, along with snotty lyrics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Starbwoy (talk • contribs) 18:10, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Deletion of clothing section
Hi, the clothing section recently got deleted. I think there should be some discussion before a section is deleted. Other music genre articles have sections on the clothing styles worn in the music scene (e.g. Heavy metal music, Punk rock). I think it is helpful for the reader to know about the clothing styles that are associated with the genre. Particularly with hardcore, it is interesting that there was a move away from the flamboyant styles of early punk to a more practical, dressed down look of crew cuts and sneakers. One could argue for the deletion of the clothing section if the article solely dealt with music, but as it stands, there are sections on politics and hardcore dancing. OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 18:53, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Hardcore zines section
The section on hardcore zines was recently deleted. I think there should be a discussion as to whether it is desirable to have a section on hardcore zines. They certainly played an important role in the scene.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 18:56, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Paragraph length
To my knowledge, the normal number of sentences in a paragraph is six. Now with some recent joining of paragraphs, there are some very long paragraphs. For example, musical characteristics is 14 sentences long. this could be broken into two paragraphs. Breaking up really long paragraphs makes the article easier to read.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 18:59, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no set length for paragraphs. They should be "short enough to be readable, but long enough to develop an idea", according to Paragraphs.--  SabreBD  (talk ) 19:20, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Coverage of antecedents
A brief overview of the punk antecedents from 1974 to 1977 was deleted with the comment that other music articles don't cover antecedents. As a point of interest, see punk rock, which has a lengthy section on antecedents, going all the way back to early 1960s garage bands and protopunk. Heavy metal music goes even further back in its antecedents section, beginning in the 1950s. The argument for having an antecedents section is that it helps the reader to understand where hardcore came from. OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 21:16, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Civility in edit summaries
During a recent session of editing, an editor referred to contributions of others as "BS", "garbage" and called edits of others "OCD edits" (presumably a reference to Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) and likened edits to a "hs book report". We should try to be civil in our interactions on Wikipedia. : ) OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 23:57, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

boston punk
Why no mention of Boston Irish punk band: Dropkick Murphys? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:77FA:5580:8120:1FC4:220C:E7FC (talk) 07:59, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Anarchism Is Not Soley Left Wing?
I don't find it necessary to assert anarchism as a "far left" ideology in the Politics section, considering the various schools of anarchy which aren't. I deleted "far left" from the sentence and it was reverted. Could someone explain to me why this was wrong?Slimx7 (talk) 00:44, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Because this is not your personal soap box, and anarchism as defined by its first ideologue, namely Pierre Joseph Proudhon, is left wing. It's a simple matter of terminology.

Zines redux
I added a zine section a long time ago and an editor deleted it. I am giving the zine section another proverbial kick at the can. Not having zines is an omission in the article on the HC punk music and subculture. Zines were the pre-Internet way to communicate info about bands, scenes, and labels. Moreover, zines are a great example of the DIY approach. OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 19:02, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The zine section just got deleted again by an editor saying the consensus is to not have a zines section. The last two posts I have made on the talk page about zines have not garnered a single reply, negative or positive. I don't see the evidence for this "no zines section " consensus.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 23:17, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah Yeah my bad. Im sorry it looks a lot better I think I got confused this page with another. either way sorry about that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.39.152.45 (talk) 05:19, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Stylistic origins
Too bad we only have one genre in the stylistic origins. Surely there must have been another influence besides punk rock. Has anyone found any research on the roots of hardcore?OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 21:02, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
 * There have been repeated attempts to put metal as one of the stylistic origins of hardcore. This is an appealing theory, but I haven't been able to find any reliable published source that states that metal is one of the stylistic origins of HC. Without a reference, this claim is original research.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 18:17, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

The reference I added, that man is a journalist and has a degree...... and about 25 years writing about the hc scene. This Article ITSELF in the United Kingdom section states a combo of NWOBHM and Punk. Hardcore is "beefed" up Punk, the Beefed up part came from Hardrock and Metal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.39.152.45 (talk) 16:11, 30 June 2014 (UTC)


 * The reference is wrong. I read that book and the NWOBHM connection is mentioned in the section of a certain band (GBH). Some british Hardcore Punk (or Street punk) bands got influenced by NWOBHM in the middle 80s, similar to how american Crossover Thrash bands were influenced by Thrash Metal. These bands were also called "Metal Punk". Also, british and american Hardcore do not sound the same. It's all in Ian Glasper's book "Burning Britain"! So someone should remove NWOHBM as stylistic origin and maybe put it to the Crossover Thrash article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:FD48:A100:B188:8245:D341:6CBD (talk) 13:27, 16 May 2015 (UTC)


 * The current statement, which says "heavy metal (early)" is ambiguous. It can be interpreted to mean early hardcore was influenced by metal, or hardcore was influenced by early metal. I suggest it be changed to "heavy metal (early hardcore)" or "heavy metal (early heavy metal)". OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 22:15, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I think the reference for NWOBHM should be used instead being things like WASP and other styles of metal could come got mind where as NWOBHM narrows the focus to the raw aggressive sounds associated with that scene rather that early metal itself. though it can be said Led Zeppelin and others power have had an influence on the early punk and hardcore punk musicians, NWOBHM seems to be more appropriate .68.39.152.45 (talk) 17:47, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Picture of zines
Hi, Can we work this out in a friendly manner? OK. The section is about zines. There is a Wikimedia Commons free-use picture of zines. The picture helps the reader to see the amateur nature of the zines. I think that your deletion of the zine photo is not justified under Wikipedia policy. OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 17:39, 7 July 2014 (UTC)



Here is the Wikipedia Manual of Style points about images. They require that images be pertinent, relevant and "significantly and directly related to the article's topic." OK. The section is about zines. A photo of a selection of zines is pertinent, relevant, and directly related to the topic at hand. The MOS furthermore says that "images are an important part of any article's presentation. Effort should...be made to improve quality and choice of images...rather than favoring their removal." So the MOS says we should favor the keeping of pertinent, relevant images. Moreover, there is no other photo of zines in the article.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 17:57, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Pertinence and encyclopedic nature


Images must be relevant to the article that they appear in and be significantly and directly related to the article's topic. Because the Wikipedia project is in a position to offer multimedia learning to its audience, images are an important part of any article's presentation. Effort should therefore be made to improve quality and choice of images or captions in articles rather than favoring their removal, especially on pages which have few visuals.

Images are primarily meant to inform readers by providing visual information. Consequently, images should look like what they are meant to illustrate, even if they are not provably authentic images. For example, a photograph of a trompe-l'œil painting of a cupcake may be an acceptable image for Cupcake, but a real cupcake that has been decorated to look like something else entirely is less appropriate. Similarly, an image of an unidentified cell under a light microscope might be useful on multiple articles, so long as there are no visible differences between the cell in the image and the typical appearance of the cell being illustrated.

Articles that use more than one image should present a variety of material near relevant text. If the article is about a general subject for which a large number of good quality images are available, (e.g., Running), editors are encouraged to seek a reasonable level of variety in the age, gender, and race of any people depicted. Adding multiple images with very similar content is less useful. For example, three formal portraits of a general wearing his military uniform may be excessive; substituting two of the portraits with a map of a battle and a picture of its aftermath may provide more information to readers. You should always be watchful not to overwhelm an article with images by adding more just because you can.

Poor quality images (too dark, blurry, etc.) or where the subject in the image is too small, hidden in clutter, ambiguous or otherwise not obvious, should not be used. Contributors should be judicious in deciding which images are the most suitable for the subject matter in an article. For example:
 * An image of a White-tailed Eagle is useless if the bird appears as a speck in the sky.
 * Gloria Steinem looks best as a portrait photograph of herself alone, not with other individuals.
 * A suitable picture of a hammerhead shark would show its distinctive hammer-like head, to distinguish it from other species of shark.
 * A map of Moldova should show its frontiers with Romania and Ukraine, so people may know where the country is located in relation to its neighbors.
 * Rice is best represented with an image of plain rice, not fried rice.
 * Intangible concepts can be illustrated; for example, a cat with its claws out portrays aggression.

The article as with some, people take too far and feel the need to fill every crevice with a photo. The story is the Content and the text. Not how many pictures can be shoved in every space. let's delete something else like a band. it has too many pictures  its starting to look amateur more than it does with all the photos it has now .Many articles of Huge Bands, companies, genres, have a Few Pictures. Not ones to try and promote bands profiles .Thats what this one has. At least a few times. 68.39.152.45 (talk) 18:02, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Already Fourteen Photos. Far more than most of this size. Maybe its a good idea to request a mediator .68.39.152.45 (talk) 18:09, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that we can still discuss this before a mediator is needed. We are still being civil. OK. You think there should be less photos. I think that we should have more photos. I have cited the MOS on images to show that I have support for photos being included. The MOS says we should try to improve the quality and choice of images, rather than favoring their removal. This helps my argument. You say that having photos of bands promotes individual bands. I don't agree with this, but I will acknowledge that there could be the perception that having one band in the Musical Characteristics section could be seen as promoting one band. Where I am troubled by your actions is with the moshing and zines pics. I am willing to let go of having a photo in the musical characteristics, and let go of having a photo of a band in the lead. But the moshing and zines pictures illustrate these topics and help the readers see what moshing and zines LOOK like. Re: Number of pictures, Punk rock has 20, but I'm not sure if there are policy rules on how many photos an article should have.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 18:18, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your views. I hope we can work out a compromise. I think that you are doing a lot of good for the articleOnBeyondZebrax (talk) 18:22, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

The Punk Rock page has more "meat" in the text and its a LOT of text Content then a photo so the main focus, is in favor of the text. I do see some areas that can be fleshed out. I think the hardcore page wouldn't work with every section in depth like theirs, thats what makes this page also unique to hardcore, but I do think that some sections here are too small and that would work to balance out the photos to keep the text the main teaching and learning tool. I would like to resize the photo of zines a little smaller even if it has to be re-uploaded. Then it might now be too much and too "busy". People read to retain information the right set up enhances that. Too many pictures are a distraction. They take away from the knowledge. More fleshed out sections can help. Ill brainstorm on that until later. I guess add the picture, if it bumps the others too far out of whack we can resize it or when the story gets fleshed out a little, maybe it will balance itself out more. The third option is we can fill out some sections more. Make it more balanced and then add the zines' photo, after, so it Accentuates and isn't the meat and potatoes of the section. the sections of "influence on other genres". That could be good place to start adding more content(depth). Ill study some other pages meanwhile when I get a chance then bring that knowledge here. a little later. Thanks a lot. I love to share knowledge and I like sharing that here for free. 68.39.152.45 (talk) 18:51, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * So if I understand your message, you would be willing to consider adding some photos if the sections had more "meat" of text added to them. I can add more content to the Zines section and Moshing section, if that would help. The interesting thing is that we are both on the same "side": Hardcore punk is important to both of us. We just have a difference of views regarding photos. I would like to work out a compromise. One way to do this would be to delete two pics that do not illustrate hardcore (the Metallica pic and the Nirvana pic), and then add in the zines and moshing photos. Do you accept this compromise?OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 16:43, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Ill be back in a little later then Ill have a minute to type it out. 68.39.152.45 (talk) 23:21, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

canada section and record labels
Recently another editor deleted information about Canadian hardcore record labels from the 1980s and 1990s. This content was called promo about labels. It is not an attempt to promote labels. Indeed, two of the labels are now out of business, so it's not promoting these labels. I think the reader benefits from knowing about the labels in a country's hardcore scene.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 20:56, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Drumming
I added the following content. First, a sentence that provides a generalization. Then, mindful of a concern raised by another editor, I noted that there are exceptions to the generalization. Giving a generalization and then stating that there are exceptions is a standard process. It is not contradictory to give a generalization and then note that there are exceptions. Here is the deleted text:
 * A guide to playing early 1980s hardcore states that drummers typically do a "fill around the kit every four bars."http://www.drummagazine.com/lessons/post/matt-byrne-punk-and-hardcore-basics/ However, not all hardcore drummers play fills.

The Ramones influence on Hardcore Punk
There should be a mention of The Ramones and their influence to Hardcore Punk. In the musical characteristics it should mention how the bands took Johnny Ramone's down stroking, barre chord technique and Tommy Ramone's straight forward drumming and sped it up to make it more raw and Hardcore. Also, The Ramones were a big influence on many big name bands like The Dead Kennedys, and if you read about Henry Rollins talk about his early days, you'll see The Ramones were a big influence on the DC scene as well which includes bands like Minor Threat who are another big name. The Bad Brains even got their name from a Ramones song. Without the Ramones, the Bad Brains wouldn't have started playing Hardcore. The Ramones even had a big influence on bands like the Circle Jerks and Black Flag. Their influence isn't as empathized here as much as it should be. They were really well respected and also played shows with Hardcore Punk bands like Black Flag and Rich Kids on LSD.
 * Please supply sources for all these claims. Sergecross73   msg me  11:32, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


 * HR of, bad brains, says they were Not named after ramones song http://idealistpropaganda.blogspot.com/2011/07/cool-articleinterview-with-hr-bad.htm l....blogs aren't reliable source here but it does have an opinion of the writer band was named after and then the Singer Himself, The person who was there, contradicts that with His Truth. saying they were Not named after. says the following: "The band pulled its new name, the Bad Brains, from a Ramones song, although H.R. insists that he didn't know it was a Ramones song. He says he thought "bad" was street slang for "good." Were the ramones an influence/pre-cursor to hardcore yes they are. However, they, the Ramones were in turn influenced by hardcore, and started playing it during 1983/1984, recorded it on too tough to die (1984) on songs such as "warthog" and on the release animal boy (in 1986) they used more Hardcore punk influence on the song "animal boy" which are both pretty straight forward hardcore punk songs.. The link to "Punk rock" covers the Ramones contribution and it is also listed in the info box Punk is the first listed origin.. The musical characteristics covers what it should and hardcore hasn't had a full "Johnny Ramone" influence, enough for logical inclusion since the mid 1980s.  Now the section has become a section of name dropping instead of focusing on the real meat and potatoes. the Style. 73.193.195.69 (talk) 22:56, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Guitar parts in hardcore can be complex, technically versatile and rhythmically challenging.[25] Guitar melody lines usually use the same minor scales used by vocalists (although some solos use pentatonic scales).[25] Some hardcore punk guitarists play solos, octave leads and grooves, as well as tapping into the various feedback and harmonic noises available to them. The guitar sound is almost always distorted and amplified, creating what has been called a "buzzsaw" sound.[26] Hardcore bassists use varied rhythms in their basslines, ranging from longer held notes (whole notes and half notes) to quarter notes, to rapid eighth note or sixteenth note runs. To play rapid bass lines that would be hard to play with the fingers, some bassists use a pick.[25] Some bassists emphasize a very technical style of bass playing. Some hardcore punk drummers play fast D beat one moment and then drop tempo into elaborate musical breakdowns the next. Drummers typically play eighth notes on the cymbals, because at the tempos used in hardcore it would be difficult to play a smaller subdivision of the beat.[25] ALL ABOUT THE MUSIC. 73.193.195.69 (talk) 23:00, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


 * "THIS IS THE EDITION" ""Many Hardcore Punk musicians took influence from The Ramones and their style of playing. Both Keith Morris and Greg Ginn were inspired to start their own band because of The Ramones. Greg Ginn saw the Ramones basic approach to music said "Ramones; they inspired us. Keith and myself saw the Ramones when they first toured LA in 1976. After we saw them, I said if they could do it we could do it." http://www.staythirstymedia.com/news/43/335-greg-ginn.html. Many early Hardore bands from Washington DC such as S.O.A., Minor Threathttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-b7lpSg2Vc and The Bad Brainshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Brains#From_fusion_to_hardcore_.281977.E2.80.931985.29 were also influenced by The Ramones. It was common for Hardcore Punk guitarists to use Johnny Ramone's downstroke, major barre chord guitar playing.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Ramone#Guitar_technique An example of this would be Lyle Preslar. Ian Mackaye, on the topic of Lyle Preslar's guitar playing, said "Lyle played six-string bar chords. It wasn't three strings."http://www.markprindle.com/mackaye-i.htm The Ramones were greatly respected by many Hardcore Punk bands and they even went on tour with a couple such as Rick Kids on LSD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FkAlWEhpyU, The Minutement and Black Flag. https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4099/4930928199_9e4e1dbd67.jpg


 * THIS EDITION IS ABOUT MOSTLY ABOUT "Keith Morris, Greg Ginn, S.O.A., Minor Threat, The Bad Brains, Johnny Ramone, Lyle Preslar, Ian Mackaye, Rick(sic) Kids on LSD, The Minutement, Black Flag" like usual a persons first edits with an agenda. What does it mean when punk is the first influencer? that the punk is an origin.....'However those are not Musical Characteristics. Its saying people were influenced by them. Tells Nothing of what the characteristics are. One again a persons first few edits. Perhaps get some understanding of the page.First. Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 23:11, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


 * So how does a person learn about Hardcore Punk characteristics with any of that. They ''Don't'. Sergecross73  msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 23:16, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


 * This page says that Jenifer (not HR) of the Bad Brains came up with the name and that they were listening to a heavy amount of Ramones at the time https://books.google.ca/books?id=EI_LwX4H4qkC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=bad+brains+ramones+name&source=bl&ots=x_AZ4MLbMb&sig=es_IqiyoAP856thNgF4_NmBEcuc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Syz-VP_NL879yQS32YGwAw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=bad%20brains%20ramones%20name&f=false

The Ramones style of playing is definitely an important influence in Hardcore Punk. Johnny Ramone's playing style (down strokes + major barre chords) is a musical characteristic. The sources are right there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 23:32, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


 * whatever D. Jennifer says, its not a characteristic. Also if you want something like down strokes included. add a sentence about downstrokes and then add a source to "johnny Ramone" as a guitarist who utilized that technique. All the other stuff is plain nonsense. Your first edits huh.  Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 23:38, 9 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Ever hear about a thing called being constructive? You're points make sense but why should I listen to you when you're going over board with this "plain nonsense" shit? And it wasn't nonsense. What I wrote is good, accurate history with sources about Hardcore Punk and should be included one way or another to the post. Maybe not in musical characteristics but possibly in another part of the article in one way or another.


 * you know whats nonsense, adding everything except what it means musically to play or understand the musical components of hardcore punk, to have your first four edits to the rescue of another page with its first 6 or so edits, Coincidentally also some here at this page,  Also Coincidentally about the ramones and the Same Section, and to add things that have Zilch to do with a characteristic, and to curse at me because you don't know what you are doing. Thats plain Nonsense to me  Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't think anything is nonsense here. Misplaced? Yeah, maybe it was, but nonsense? That is all part of the history of the genres beginnings. Instead of offering guidance you just go off on a tangent and call everything "nonsense". I think your attitude is nonsense. If you know so much about writing articles, why not contribute your knowledge instead of freaking out over it and calling everything "A bunch of nonsense"? You're not helping anyone here unless all you want to do is boost your ego. Now how about "Musically, Hardcore Punk guitar players generally played fast major barre chords with rapid down strokes. A technique originally used by Johnny Ramone." Is that good or is it a bunch of "name dropping nonsense" to you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 00:01, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Thats not bad, where do suppose it will be interjected, then it can be re-written a little to fit. Also get your reference Not from other wikipedia pages that says johnny ramone influenced hc or even early hc punk guitarists with his downstroke technique. then it should be good to go. Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 00:07, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * It should be interjected right after "creating what has been called a "buzzsaw" sound." Here's the source that claims that he was both an influence on Hardcore and used the "down stroking, major barre chord technique" and here's some Hardcore punk guys talking about their admiration for The Ramones http://books.google.ca/books?id=7AgdUYZ6U0wC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA16#v=onepage&q&f=false and this page claims that "Greg Ginn and Greg Hetson only strummed downwards." You can also use my Lyle Preslar source for the major barre chords if you need it or whatever you feel like you should do. I also think the edits I made to the "Musical characteristics" should be included in it's early history. They're still important pieces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 00:22, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Forgot to link other two sources. Here they are: https://books.google.ca/books?id=Fg838EcECUwC&lpg=PT109&ots=hyab-tbxLK&dq=johnny%20ramone%20hardcore&pg=PT109#v=onepage&q=johnny%20ramone%20hardcore&f=false https://nowtoronto.com/music/off-2011-06-16/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 00:24, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * lets take one thing at a time and do it Correctly. brb. ......Can you just slow down a minute. Im going to read the reference every time I hit save there is more being added. Brb Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 00:27, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Update me on what's going on when you're done. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 00:30, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Which source do you have for Johnny Ramone being an influence with his down stroke technique, on hc punk. Just One . more can be added to the article. This is only to get the sentence/statement added and backed up by a source. Sergecross73  msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The Guitar world source claims that Johnny's playing defines the sound of "Punk and Hardcore". I think that's a pretty good source. You could probably phrase that as "According to Guitar world" or what have you. There are other pages that I've found that claim that Johnny was the first one to use the "all down stroke" technique and if you can tie those sources into the article with my other sources of Greg Ginn, Greg Hetson etc. also using down strokes I would be happy to provide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 00:53, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * you really should take a break. idealistically. do you know how much time it wastes doing this. You're not even prepared or focused. Your first link is 402 pages. ????? I meant which source Above. You are all over the place. Which link, which page, which section, I don't have a year to read books of material. Pick A Source. make a sentence from the source or based on it, post the sentence or keep the one above and post a link to A source. that backs it up. Also all the other stuff, lyle and ian stuff IF it goes anywhere is Minor Threat page, gregg to the Circle jerks page, etc. the page is about hc punk, not every band who says "Ramones" are an influence. This is coming from myself, who owns a copy, a promo copy of leave home w/carbona not glue. Ramones are in my life for decades...However, its probably an hour or two now that this is going on. Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Furthermore the gregg ginn, g hetson and rkl stuff, lyle, ian henry and anyone else you mentioned either goes on the ramones page or their respective groups page. Sergecross73  msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 01:11, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * "Prepared or focused"? I didn't know I was joining the army. But Thanks anyway, Sergent Hulka. I own an original Beat is on the Beat Ramones LP and an original Rocket to Russia, plus a billion rarities of Hardcore but I thought we were discussing what would benefit the page, not the size of our record collections. Minor Threat, Circle Jerks and Black Flag are important parts of Hardcore Punk history and they can be included in this page as well. Even Steven Blush's book says "Many Hardcore peers name The Ramones as a primary influence". Yes, the link was 402 pages but I'm pretty sure I linked you to a specific page in the book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 01:13, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Again, you typed out a sentence about j. ramone, find a source that backs up the inclusion of that sentence/statement. Don't bother name calling either. don't want you to find your way closer to a block. Again, I don't care what you own, Im not even reading it or am phased Im letting you know I Understand and support the ramones. I guess you wanted to make it a contest instead of Understanding. Thats ok, anyhow     you typed out a sentence about j. ramone, find a source that backs up the inclusion of that sentence/statement.  Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Threatening me with blocks isn't going to get either of us anywhere. If you don't want me to name call, you shouldn't comment on my preparation or focus skills. I have sent you a billion links but you are just ignoring them or claiming there is some other problem. There is a lot of of evidence there that shows that The Ramones were an influence on Hardcore Punk. Johnny started that down stroke, barre chord playing style and the Hardcore Punk bands imitated it. The sources I sent clearly give examples of Guitars that used only down strokes and barre chords. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 01:26, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Again, you typed out a sentence about j. ramone, find a source that backs up the inclusion of that sentence/statement. anytime now. Also j.ramone didnt "start" the downstroke. b. holly utilized it in the 1950s on songs such as Peggy Sue and in music its probably a few hundred years old technique.  Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 01:27, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I just did type up a bunch of stuff about that playing technique. The technique that Johnny Ramone pioneered. I showed you sources to how the hardcore punk bands played and I offered to show you sources that said Johnny was one of the first to play that way. And yes, Buddy Holly did use it previously, but Johnny Ramone used it almost exclusively in every song. And Buddy Holly didn't use barre chords the way Johnny did. "Probably" isn't a good source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 01:37, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * this is why you start out on wiki by finding misspelled words and go from there. You wanted to "jump right in" . Now you want to argue. LOL. Its still not "here man, this link on page whatever, 3rd paragraph states "j. ramone influenced hc punk with his downstrokes", seriously. this is kind of funny at this point. You aren't aware yet, the sentence we will put won't even Mention J.ramone, it will mention the Use of Downstrokes IF in fact you find a reliable source that backs it up. The Link will be about j.ramone. Sergecross73  msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 01:45, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Look at you, the self-proclaimed wiki master. I know that the internet is your life and you have nothing going on outside, but I can't understand this condescending bully behavior. You think you know so much about everything yet when somebody makes a mistake you just want to argue. Did somebody reject your article for their publication so you go on rants on wikipedia all day? Fine, whatever. I've sourced you pages to Hardcore Punk guitarists using down strokes. If you don't wanna mention Johnny Ramone, whatever. You're not even in charge here. I'd prefer to speak to an experience user who actually knows what they are doing and will speak in a civilized manner like adults would instead of this "LOL" business. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 01:52, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * reality is tough for you huh? Here, Ill call you out right now. You don't have any sources to back up your claim and are aggravated instead of proactively finding that source. Sound about Right. Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 01:59, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Seems harder for you than it is for me. I showed you a bunch of sources but you're too stubborn to look at them. I gave you examples of people who use the technique and you brush it off like a child with your "LOL". Speak like an adult next time. You probably know all about being aggravated, don't you? Your big walls of text and overuse of Caps Lock above show that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 02:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * j. ramone is not a characteristic, he will be mentioned in the source for the text. IF and when you supply a source. Above you stated Johnny started that down stroke then typed yes, Buddy Holly did use it previously. there are other blatant contradictions. as well. Im eating and cooking right now. have Plenty of time.  not "aggravated", emphasizing words in caps is not "yelling" . lol  Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 02:06, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for sharing your activities. It's really good to know what you're up too. And you seem pretty upset over all of this. You and your "lol" child speak. You must not of read what I said and just skimmed through it. I elaborated on what I mean.I am talking about him starting the technique. Johnny Ramone doesn't have to be a characteristic and I never said he should be. I said his style of playing should be a characteristic. Of course, you think you're always right and won't listen to anybody else so you won't even bother listening to what I have to say. Of course, you the authority of Punk Rock. I guess you probably don't even own a Ramones record or know who Minor Threat actually is. According to you, probably is a good source of information.


 * Alright c'mon guys, chill out. First of all, I want to say that the stuff he's adding isn't "plain nonsense", it obviously has importance to the genre and it definitely should be mentioned in the article. Plus he has sources for the content so I don't see why this had to turn into a big problem. Yes, maybe the content he's adding could be condensed with a few things added to other articles, but I think the main core of it should stay here and that idea could have been brought up without all the name-calling and useless bickering back and forth... Blaguymonkey


 * Anyhow, that IP argues in the same way and bratty style of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/SonOfPlisskin, someone is going to or should check out your IP to see if you are in fact that person. also YAWN he was told to supply the one source to warrant inclusion. We haven't even Gotten to the other points yet. this person is very very SLOW to understand and to supply a source that backs it all up. adding "people to characteristics" Seriously wow. find a source say what page what paragraph. is that so hard LOL  Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * First of all, why are you claiming that I am another random wiki user? Secondly: did you even read what I wrote at all? Or, like the teenager you are, did you just decide to not read what I said and to just go off at the mouth. I sent you so many sources and you just decided to ignore them. Self-entitled suburban teenagers think they're always right.


 * Well, I don't have the energy to get heavily involved in this debate. I'll go over the content and try to work on it, I'll see what I can do. Blaguymonkey


 * I appreciate this. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 02:29, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * “Sergent Hulka” "Probably" isn't a good source.”   “self-proclaimed wiki master” “the internet is your life and you have nothing going on outside” “bully” “Did somebody reject your article” “You're not even in charge here” “I'd prefer to speak to an experience user who actually knows what they are doing” “speak in a civilized manner like adults would” “you're too stubborn” “you brush it off like a child” “Speak like an adult next time.” "probably know all about being aggravated, don't you?" “child speak” “you think you're always right” “course, you the authority of Punk Rock” “I guess you probably don't even own a Ramones record or know who Minor Threat actually is” “like the teenager you are” “Self-entitled suburban teenager” "whatever either of you attempt to do, more time finding sources, no name dropping, back up statements with sources. nothing that isn't Accurate is going to get "by".  Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 02:37, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You're not even a registered user here. Stop talking like you're an admin when you're just a child with anger issues. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 02:40, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * No, I don't need to be an admin to be an expert in the genre. hows that source coming out for you. Find anything yet, its been a while. If you must know I actually just laughed so angry not even close. wondering what your major issue is with finding a link and not sending a 402 page link about everyone else except j.ramone ? perhaps. Sergecross73  msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 02:45, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Enough, this is ridiculous. I already said I'd work on it and see what I can do. Obviously this is an argument so both parties can do something better, but that previous response was just uncalled for and unnecessary. Blaguymonkey


 * Now you just made me laugh! An expert in the genre!? How ridiculous. I knew you were just nothing but a self-proclaimed expert and probably a teenage one at that. Hard to be civil with teenagers. You've completely ignored any source I've given links. I don't even need to give YOU links. You don't know a thing about Hardcore Punk do you? I'm not talking about post-1986 Youth Crew or Metalcore here, buddy. I'm talking about the real thing. Not some of that Rise Against you listen to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 02:57, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * . You know whats enough wasting time. Find a source for statements has been the thing now for about a few hours "You" said you're going to work on it. So What. this is a talk page. not Your page. I can reply to people typing to me. Thanks. lol 13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * what you did on purpose or not was bombard the page with link after link. I don't work for you, you supply the links. You aren't supplying them to Me . you are supplying them so you dont have your stuff removed again. Understand. Probably not ?. Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh yeah, removed by the self-proclaimed expert. I sent you links and you keep ignoring that fact. Whatever. I'm done dealing with an idiot teenager like yourself. Grow up a little bit and then come back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 03:05, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * All you had and have to do, but I guess its more fun to try and argue is 1. type the statement about j. ramone 2. show were its going because frankly you're grammar needs Work, and ill help you. whenever you finally have a source, if you have one at all. 3. find a source to back up statement. Anytime time now . I don't care if you ever come back. Whomever adds false claims or unsourced info. on this page or any at wiki will be challenged and removed. By someone like me or another editor. Esp. if it name drops or promos other stuff besides what is stated ESP. if someone adds "people" to Characteristics . Thats just ridiculous. Feel free to dictionary the Word Characteristics. Please do. Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm starting a new section because I can't stand reading it like that. Anyways, why the hell did you remove my response? You're being quite rude man. Like I said, obviously this is an argument so both parties can do something better, but it really gives the impression that you're just trying to keep this going. Just let me work on the damn thing, and until I put it in the article just shut the hell up and drop this. This has gone way too far now. Blaguymonkey.


 * didnt remove anything. pretty funny. Im not letting you do or not do anything. "shut the hell up" thats funny~ . You got real sources and statements you'll be good to go. You'll put stuff thats real or it will be removed. There is No green light on fake, promo statements or general falsehoods. It will never be too far. make sure your stuff is on point. If you know how to write you'll be fine. If not you won't. Thats anything in life. But no, something Ive spent about 40 years on Im going to check every little bit from now. just like the last 5 or so years. Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 03:29, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * maybe you should both sit back and ILL add j, ramone with a source and a great statement, Its only taken you both collectively like 5 hours? to add nothing even close to what this all started over. However at this point its what you are concerned with, see how you do. Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 03:34, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * First of all, yes you did remove my response man, go look in the history. I can go back and look at who edited the page man, don't lie to me. It should be pretty clear by my responses that I can write too, I actually use better grammar than you on this talk page. And no you're not editing it, let me try to work with it first. I only got involved with this whole mess about an hour ago and I had some things to do first. I'm sorry I got a late start, I actually have a life outside of Wikipedia. Blaguymonkey


 * Uhhhhh No I didnt "man". Its only clear if you can write when you DO write something that is actually good. Hearsay?, that will need a reference.  I know "you have a life" got a reference for that?  "lie to you" even if I did remove it I haven't looked at what you are talking about why would I Reply to it then? Perhaps I didnt know it was removed huh. What do I care about what you type that Id have to remove it? really reaching for straws at this point.  Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 03:42, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * You know what? Fuck you! I tried to be civil to you earlier, but since you're not gonna pay me the same courtesy there's no point. There's no need to poke fun at me using the word "man" and making sarcastic comments about using references. Now I know you're just looking for a fight. I've worked on the content, and I only ended up keeping a few sentences but they don't have sources, so let me look for some right now. Blaguymonkey


 * Ill tell you what your "fuck you" is getting reported. I don't care how you feel about it. No one is going to destroy, minimize or wreck an article just because they feel like it. "let you look" your so caught up in your own ego you keep coming to argue. FIND A REFERENCE ALREADY. WHO IS STOPPING YOU ? LOL Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to destroy the fucking article, I'm trying to add something that is actually useful! I'm trying my best to find a fucking source for it so just GET OF MY FUCKING BACK! Blaguymonkey


 * Did I say you never once. You were finding this stuff like how long ago now? think it will before summer? You are free to go. Find a source. its your Ego you can't let go. I don't see how you are going to find source while arguing. you're not 'trying" to do anything. you either Do or you Don't'.  On your back'' Im sitting on a chair lol Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * You're just a stupid, arrogant prick, you know that? I'm sick of your snot-nosed attitude, I'm sick of your smart-ass comments, I'm just plain sick of you. Blaguymonkey


 * this is getting reported. Noticeboard time. More than Likely. Also, Anytime now before summer. Who cares what you are sick of. I only care if you find that reference and quit stalling. Are you nervous? Just find it, a good search engine is google lol Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 04:06, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay, found a source, don't know if it's good enough, don't care. It was worth a shot. I apologize for the personal attacks to you, but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't make sarcastic comments or making fun of what I say. Blaguymonkey


 * Its ok to care. It may be good enough. Were all good. Its like hours of accusations and everything else besides a source. I think the characteristic of J. ramones playing should be there. As a matter of fact since you both feel so strongly about it even if your source does not work out, Ill do my best to find one that works. I care if this article reads well, that its accurate and that is helpful to those reading it at any age. Personal attacks aren't helping to find a source. We'll work on it and see about/how to get the info of j. ramone in the characteristics. thats the main point. Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 04:44, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Im telling you all right now much to most of that is being removed. Most of it is not characteristics. Ill add it the professional way  Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 04:56, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * One of the sources can be used it does say enough, its also reliable. However its about seriously studying each sentence to see how can it "fit" in, neatly without being or appearing forced. it has to flow it has to be and ring true it has to work within the confines of the statements in the reference. It could take a day a week a month maybe even never. There also is no rush its not about you two maShaun and the other IP "getting your way" before the day was done its about taking your times and having it all work as well as the rest of the section. Should j.ramone be there yes and no, no one really downstrokes in hc. The tempo is too fast. Was he an influence on the scene of course but mostly esp. in the first wave of hc guitarists, as far as other things other than "downstrokes". That word in itself maybe too limiting for hc, there may be another way. that fits here. Im not on a "time limit" the article will still be here why don't you both step back and give it some real thought if you already are its not enough. There is no rush there is only doing things Accurate and professional.  Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 07:40, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * One more so far of the references is also usable/workable. thats Two so far. This one is better than the other. What it says confines what can be stated, and this one is even better. Like I said it will take time and anyone who knows about life knows the best moments of genius come in moments of clarity not when there is disruption and personal attacks. Sergecross73   msg me  13:03, 10 March 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.193.195.69 (talk) 07:52, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Lets try that again
Okay, that last conversation degraded into all sorts of off-topic rants and personal attacks. Lets try again. Please present content and requested sources below. Please make your argument short and concise, and deal with one issue at a time, as to not get sidetracks or overwhelmed. Sergecross73  msg me  13:05, 10 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Hey Serge. Thanks for being understanding about the whole thing.


 * Here are different sources claiming Hardcore Punk guitarists use down strokes and full barre chords. The thing about it is that it mentions specific people involved in the scene but I hope it's good enough.


 * This is an interview with current guitarist Stephen of the Descendents. He says this: "Then Milo Goes to College came out and what struck me about Frank's playing was it reflected very reactionary tendencies -- all downstrokes, all six strings when he could." http://blogs.ocweekly.com/heardmentality/2014/03/descendents_stephen_egerton_interview_musink.php


 * Here is Ian Mackaye talking about Lyle Preslar's full barre chords: "Lyle played six-string bar chords. It wasn't three strings. To this day, when I play a bar chord it's just the top three strings really. Lyle is playing full-position bar chords at that speed." http://www.markprindle.com/mackaye-i.htm


 * This news site says this: "Famed punk guitarists like Johnny Ramone, Greg Ginn and Greg Hetson only strummed downwards." https://nowtoronto.com/music/off-2011-06-16/


 * Greg Hetson and Brian Baker say this: "Use only downstrokes. Downstrokes are the key to unlocking all punk rhythms." http://www.thebrpage.net/theanswer/?article=guitar_playing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 04:32, 11 March 2015 (UTC)


 * There are other sources that claim that the barre chord, all down stroke technique is one that Johnny Ramone pioneered. I can provide those, too if you like. Even if there isn't a mention of his influence in the musical characteristics, mentioning the down strokes and especially the Major barre chords is important. Especially, the barre chords, as they're overlooked. And often, people mistakenly think Hardcore Punk guitarists used power chords which is generally not the case.


 * Here are some sources of the Ramones influence on some Hardcore Punk guys: This is from a page of American Hardcore by Steven Blush http://books.google.ca/books?id=7AgdUYZ6U0wC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA16#v=onepage&q&f=false Kevin Seconds even describes it as an "instructional record" to his playing.


 * Another book, called Not So Quiet on the Western Front: Punk Politics During the Conservative Ascendancy in the United States, 1980--2000 by Brock Ruggles. It claims that the Bad Brains listened to a heavy amount of Ramones when they came up with the name "Bad Brains" (which is also a Ramones song) https://books.google.ca/books?id=EI_LwX4H4qkC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=bad+brains+ramones+name&source=bl&ots=x_AZ4MLbMb&sig=es_IqiyoAP856thNgF4_NmBEcuc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Syz-VP_NL879yQS32YGwAw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=bad%20brains%20ramones%20name&f=false


 * Greg Ginn interview talking about his and Keith Morris' inspiration that came from the Ramones: ""Ramones; they inspired us. Keith and myself saw the Ramones when they first toured LA in 1976. After we saw them, I said if they could do it we could do it." http://www.staythirstymedia.com/news/43/335-greg-ginn.html


 * Photo showing a Ramones show with Black Flag https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4099/4930928199_9e4e1dbd67.jpg


 * This video contains RKL's cover of a Ramones song (which shows their respect for the band) plus a show flyer photo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FkAlWEhpyU


 * Let me know if these sources are sufficient. I did a ton of research on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.199.168 (talk) 04:19, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

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Edit Warring
I don't know what the issue is, and I don't really care. But the recent edit warring needs to stop. Controversial material should not be re-added to an article w/o consensus. And once that consensus is reached, it needs to be respected by all involved. Please remember that there are multiple avenues open for resolving content disputes. Thank you. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:16, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Heavy hardcore is a hardcore punk style that metalcore comes from. You can't just call bands such as Death Before Dishonor or Terror hardcore punk bands and act like they sound like bands such as the Dead Kennedys and Black Flag. Statik N (talk) 03:06, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Metalcore is defined. Extreme metal + hardcore punk. "heavy hardcore" is a POV that doesn't exist. All sub-genres have stand alone articles. The Metallica photo is there for Years, you have no consensus for change.The earliest metallic hardcore groups Started Metalcore and pre-date all the kate comers of this made up "sub-genre". this will be better suited for a notceboard discussion where "static" POV pushing can be examined fully.
 * I agree controversial material should not be re-added without consensus.
 * 73.150.168.222 (talk) 04:58, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Maybe we could add "heavy hardcore" to the 1990s part of the article. We could write that bands such as Madball and Biohazard were called "heavy hardcore" by author Nicolae Sfetcu. For the Metallica picture, we could write a thing that says "Many metalcore bands listened to thrash metal band Metallica." Metallica is NOT a metalcore band. If we have a picture of them on the metalcore part of the article, then people will be confused or think that Metallica is metalcore. Statik N (talk) 18:39, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I think that adding a section in the 1990s part of the Hardcore article itself can make a lot of sense and possibly can be a great contribution of some well thought out sentences, if written well. It shouldn't be called a sub genre because it isn't. The Metallica caption is accurate. 73.150.168.222 (talk) 19:57, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Ok. Then we agree on something. Statik N (talk) 20:05, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * at Skate punk why did you re-add all those non skate punk albums and their sales https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Skate_punk&action=history and have things such as characteristics all over the page after I helped remove them, and cleaned up the page. "EuropeanSwedenAmerican2222" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:EuropeanSwedenAmerican2222 added all that with No Consensus starting on april 9 2016 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Skate_punk&offset=&limit=500&action=history why did you ask for page protection. Why do you continue editing the page about record sales of non-skate punk albums. when Its about Skate Punk. Why did you re-add all those albums when each one was looked up and ones that aren't skate punk were removed. That for sure will go to a notice board. 73.150.168.222 (talk) 20:47, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * you. maSHAUNix, EuropeanSwedenAmerican2222, Binksternet, Dude0007, SonOfPlisken, OnBeyondZebrax all seem to work in Tandem with each other in various degrees, how many of you are the same people. 73.150.168.222 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:52, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * On Sum 41's All Killer, No Filler article, it says that the album is skate punk. On Sum 41's Half Hour of Power article, it says the album is skate punk. AllMusic calls Blink-182 skate punk. Blink-182 and Sum 41 are pop punk but are also skate punk. Kind of skate-pop-punk. Statik N (talk) 21:51, 7 January 2017 (UTC)


 * none of that even addresses all the POV and bad edits 73.150.168.222 (talk) 07:34, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Statik N and 73.150.168.222, neither of you have pointed to sources for your assertions. In Wikipedia, editors opinions matter less than their sources. Dimadick (talk) 17:32, 8 January 2017 (UTC)


 * The multiple IPs from New Jersey represent CombatMarshmallow who is indefinitely blocked. Please revert anything he does here. Binksternet (talk) 16:10, 9 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Someone help this guy. To realize. Its already been proven false. He's been trying to control that page for a long time https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hogan%27s_Heroes_(band)&action=history and any time its edited accuses everyone of being the same person. maybe some of them were, I am not [Special:Contributions/73.150.168.222|73.150.168.222]] (talk)16:30, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Vandalism/Edit Warring
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hardcore_punk&diff=767547107&oldid=767462123

This editor is looking for anyway to "thicken" the fake genre they added. Theres a Serious Conflict of interest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Statik_N "Static_N" is Highly Likely a sock or another users page who uses it on his "off" days from another account. 73.150.168.222 (talk) 15:47, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

You made a subgenres list part of the history section. You made the article extremely confusing. Statik N (talk) 21:20, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

reporting this. BTW that "genre" will never matter. I didnt touch it. the Stable version is correct. 73.150.168.222 (talk) 21:45, 26 February 2017 (UTC)