Talk:Hardline (subculture)

Crypto-what?
The article alleges that "Hardline" subculture is "Crypto-fascist." At the risk of sounding ignorant of the latest politico-cultural-anthropological-newspeak-universitybabble, is this even a term? Did a contributor to this article invent it? Shouldn't some sort of link to the definition of this neologistic monstrosity be provided? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.153.242.91 (talk) 15:11, 27 July 2014 (UTC) Hardly a recent term, it's been in use for about 50 years now since it was coined by Gore Vidal. You're welcome to link it to the Wikipedia pages for the term, found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-fascism) if you feel it's necessary. I suspect most people reading the page understand the term.174.50.96.97 (talk) 00:50, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Doing some serious revisions
The previous article bordered on stub status and suffered from some language difficulties. I'm intimately familiar with Hardline's history so I took the liberty of doing some serious revisions.

Some of the history is revisionism. I was there in the very beginning and most of the Hardline founders were agnostic, nonreligous or atheist. It had nothing to do with "abrahamic" religion. The band Raid had as much to do with formulating the Hardline movement as the record label owner, Sean. The difference is Raid became disenchanted with the Hardline movement early on and the record label continued on. Before Vegan Reich, Statement and Raid were released, Hardline was only a record label idea, not a movment. By the time the records were released, we created a movement. That movement was created in Memphis, not Laguna Beach. Later Hardline morphed into a quasi-Islamic scene. Intially, it was simply hardcore vegan straight edge and not anti sex, cursing, etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.111.45.125 (talk) 20:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Straight Edge, Hardline and Veganism
I think the article doesn't state clear enough that vegan straight edge and hardline were two completely separated evolutions. When reading this article, one might think that Hardline developed Straight Edge towards veganism, and that a vegan straight-edger is a hardliner. This is absolutely not the case: veganism became a part of straight edge for many people since the mid-eighties, and still today many straight-edgers are vegan. Those people have nothing to do with hardline, and most of them even actively oppose hardline. The article should focus more on the basic difference between the two: straight edge is a philosophy that can be fit into many very different political ideas, while hardline is a full blown ideology that grew out of it and has aspects of eco-fascism, totalitarianism (see the 'central comittee'), abrahamic religion and activism. Also, I think the article should mention the fact that hardline has given the straight edge philosophy a very bad reputation: "Vanguard" is often cited as a 'straight edge magazine' in articles that critically analyze right-wing tendencies within veganism. Cases of violence coming from groups of hardliners are almost always called ´ straight edge violence'; of course this violence goes back to an intolerant interpretation of straight edge and thus is related to it, but many sources fail to differentiate between straight edge and hardline. Just for the record, I am personally neither 'straight edge' nor 'hardline'. PS: I also think this article should not be deleted as it is highly informative and as far as I know not too far from the truth.82.114.160.32 (talk) 13:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Uh, what?
Could someone add detail to the point of proving this exists? The hardline I know of is nothing like this. Or are hardcore and hardline different? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skrayl (talk • contribs) 02:42, 2 January 2008 (UTC) -- Of course hardcore and hardline our different. The first is a kind of music that has it roots in punkrock music, the second is an ideology that has it roots in straight edge philosophy. I think this comment/question should be deleted. 82.114.160.32 (talk) 13:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

cursing?
"The Hardline philosophy forbids its adherents from smoking or chewing any form of tobacco, drinking alcoholic beverages, and using illicit drugs or modern medicines, cursing, and consuming meat/animal products. In addition, Hardliners are expected to follow a strict dietary regimen."

Does this need to be included? I dont think that cursing was ever an issue... unless its become part of the platform since hardline's "islamization". AwesomeCrom 01:27, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

impressive!
Very thorough and a huge improvement over the previous article! I don't think it's necessary or positive to mention full names, though, what with security culture concerns and all. I also think that the involvement of Micah and the Cincy chapter should be mentioned, since they are so very vocal these days.

Lacks criticism
This is an obvious case of "until the lions have historians, tales of hunting will always glorify the hunter". There are quite obvious language problems here and a lack of historical analysis of what Hardline was, where it came from, why it fizzled out.

hardline is really the source of grafting "vegan" and "straightedge"?
it seems that some mention should be made that ian mackeye -- the lyricist almost universally credited with outlining the straight-edge movement -- is, in fact, a vegan, as is (auspiciously) the rest of fugazi. i'm not sure if that pre-dates rat and muttaqi (and we may never know, because it seems mackeye seems to have pretty heavily distanced himself from trying to define his straight-edge beliefs), it certainly seems to make the discussion murky. since mackeye is vaguely critical of more radical straight-edge movements of which hardline is an extreme example of, it seems unlikely that he would have been directly influenced by the latter. this doesn't mean that mackeye can be credited with every aspect of straight-edge, but if someone can find a citation that talks about this, i think it has a place in the straight-edge/vegan origins discussion on this page.

71.56.70.127 07:24, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I must say too, it's a very complete and thorough presentation. I am discovering this movement, and I must say something is definitely not clear to me. This is supposed to have derived from Straight Edge... So, straight edge is supposed to be linked to anarchism, socialism political ideas. And yet I find this "Hardline" thing totally opposite. The complete adoration of nature leading to pro-life (therefore against women's choice) a complete opposition to basic socialist or anarchist humanism.


 * As stated above: this has NOTHING to do with anarchist. I am removing it from the Category:Anarchism. Cacuija (my talk) 06:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There was never anything political about the straight edge philosophy. It was always just an individual lifestyle choice, nothing more or less.  This hardline thing destroyed that definition by taking the principles and creating a cult-like mentality.  I don't know how or really why one would become a "hardliner", but any way it seems like a big load of conformist dogma.


 * It doesn't say it anywhere in the article (and I have no real source for this, so I won't add it) but as far as I remember Hardline was more an offshoot of the whole Peace Punk thing than Straight Edge. Not that all of these different subcultures happened in a vacuum, though. Joey1978 (talk) 06:10, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

need disambiguation page for "hardline"
Hi,

I ran into "hardline" while researching cellulose insulation for a historic house. A testing lab mentioned that it tests "hardlines" and "softlines." Apparently these are business jargon for the older expressions "hard goods" and "soft goods." But I could not find a clear definition using google's define: or using answers.com.

I haven't time to go to glossarist.com or bartleby.com.

--Bob

Hard-line vs. Hardline
I'm moving this article from its current title (Hard-line) to Hardline. As far as I know, hardline is a non-hyphenated word, and most literature about the hardline movement I've read tends to omit the hyphen. Even the text of the article itself doesn't use the hyphen. Ecto 01:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

ELF/ALF Connection
http://www.furcommission.com/news/newsE36.htm Does anyone care to make an edit accordingly?

History Section
The History section rambles. Anyone care to edit? --poopsix 16:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

HCC?
Vanguard was the official magazine of the Hardline movement. As the movement ebbed and flowed, the magazine was sporadically published before releasing a final issue in the late 1990's, in which the HCC (Hardline Central Committee) announced that Hardline, as an organized movement, was being disbanded. --this was the text of an article that was deleted. It this sourceable? Puddytang 01:39, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Not a religion
This article is not within the scope of Wiki Project Religion, because Hardline is not a religion. No debate necessary.


 * I'd be inclined to agree with whoever wrote the above statement. Any opposition to removing the project religion box? Freikorp (talk) 05:31, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 * We can't; only a project member can. A project can tag whatever articles they feel that are within their scope. --Guerillero &#124; My Talk  05:34, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Can't imagine why they would have thought it was within their scope. Oh well, you learn something new every day. :) Freikorp (talk) 05:57, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

1699
In the fourth paragraph of the origin section, it said that Vegan Reich regrouped briefly in 1699. Now, I don't know too much about that, but I'd say that's a typo and meant to be 1999? Can anybody who does know fix that up please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geriatric.cheeseman (talk • contribs) 09:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Tagged for deletion - why?
I must admit I'm too old to know about such subcultural things, but why the deletion tag? I came across this article during some research of my own, and I found it useful and informative, and it linked in with other stuff about straight edge which I found by googling. So why delete it? Gwaka Lumpa (talk) 15:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

How many people were involved in this?
"At its height, the hardline movement had approximately ten chapters, with one or two people involved in the US, Europe, South America, and Australia."

So there were like twenty people involved in this at its height? That can't be right, can it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.228.40.129 (talk) 04:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Your common sense hunch is correct. As a former vegan straightedge kid with a hardline tattoo, I can attest that hardline was an actual movement with a loose collection of followers. My inner-city high school alone had three dedicated hardliners; probably more than Baha'i adherents, if that means anything. I'd bet that at hardline's peak, any city with a sizeable hardcore scene would have a few dozen kids that would associate themselves with hardline. At that time, kids would photocopy and pass on the Hardline Manifesto and create their own progressive zines to talk about their beliefs. They'd also listen to and buy records from hardline bands like Raid, Day of Suffering, and Vegan Reich; and throw rocks through KFC windows and steal stuff from Wal-Mart. And wherever a popular band like Raid would pop up, they'd instantly convert their core audience to the hardline philosophy--even if just until the kids get to college.

Although there may have been some official chapters, most hardliners were just pockets of kids listening to the same music, talking about (but rarely doing) direct action, and living off cheap vegan food; similar to the makeup, attitude, and apparent longevity of the straightedge kids. 168.7.81.149 (talk) 16:54, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Just a question
How can hardline be something that strifes for Human Rights when they think homosexuality is wrong? That's a ridiculous stand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.136.37.231 (talk) 12:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah I can't understand that for the life of me either, it was a double-standard that in my opinion cost hard-line countless potential followers. Freikorp (talk) 03:24, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Propahandhi song critical of Hardliners?
The song "Back To The Motor League" from the album "Today's Empires, Tomorrow's Ashes" by Propagandhi appears to be very critical of - I think... - the Hardline movement. Here are the lyrics, taken from www.propahandhi.com. What do you guys reckon? "I like to party fucking hard. I like my rock and roll the same. Don’t give a fuck if I burn out. Don’t give a fuck if I fade away. So back to the Motor-League with me before I’m forced to face the wrath of a well-heeled buying public who live vicariously through tortured-artist college-rock and floor-punching macho pabulum. Back to the Motor League I go. Once thought I drew a lucky hand. Turned out to be a live grenade of play-acting “anarchists” and Mommy’s-little-skinheads, death-threats and sycophants and wieners drunk on straight-edge. Fuck off. Who cares? I’d rather hi-lite Trip-Tiks than listen to your bullshit. Fuck off. Who cares about your stupid scenes, your shitty zines, the straw-men you build up to burn. It never ceases to amaze me and as I’m suffering your perfection it reminds me of my own race to redress my own sad history of mouthed feet. Eaten hats. Teated bulls. Amish phone-books. Drunken brawls. But what have we here? 15 years later it still reeks of Ã«Swill and Chickenshit Conformists with their fists in the air; like-father, like-son “rebelsÃ® bloated on korn, eminems and bizkits. Lord, hear our prayer: take back your Amy Grant mosh-crews and your fair-weather politics. Blow-dry my hair and stick me on a ten-speed. Back to the Motor League. I guess life is just a popularity contest. Success, the ability to perform within a framework of obedience. Just ask the candy-coated Joy-Cam rock-bands selling shoes for venture-capitalists, silencing competing messages, rounding off the jagged edges. Today is good day to die."

Notability?
Is this really a notable subculture? Currently, out of the bands listed in the article as being part of it, only two of them actually have articles (Raid (band) and Birthright (band)) and at least one of those is of dubious notability itself. I did a search for reliable sources, and while there is some coverage in serious books, it's a bit thin on the ground. If anyone can find any really good sources on the topic, they should be added to the article. Otherwise, perhaps we should consider merging this article into the one on straight edge? Robofish (talk) 01:08, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Wood, Robert T. (2006). Straight Edge Youth: The Complexity and Contradictions of a Subculture.. Syracuse, NY: Syracuse University Press. has a section on hardline. It was one of the offshoots of 1990s straight edge that thankfully died. Earth Crisis is one of the better known straight edge bands. --Guerillero &#124; My Talk  04:21, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Merge
This page needs to be merged with Straight Edge. Probably will be. Its the same thing. With a few different "rules". Also a Continuation of the chronological order of the evolution of straight edge CombatMarshmallow (talk) 16:47, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
 * If coverage of hardline is always in reference to straight edge (and if there is little to no reliable, secondary source coverage with hardline as distinct from SE), then merger is the best solution with summary style potential to expand in the future Eye close font awesome.svg czar  03:59, 27 July 2017 (UTC)