Talk:Haredi Judaism

Education
This section needs a lot of work explaining how Yeshiva works. If anyone can contribute some time, much appreciated.

Looking for help from knowledgeable Wikipedians:

The Yeshiva system works simply by creating an environment that allows Jewish men including young adults and teens to get together and study.

Generally, the subject at hand would be a folio of the Talmud.

Jewish boys enter Yeshiva sometime in their late teens and remain until they marry. After marriage they will move to a similar institution that is named "kollel" but is essentially does the same function. However, the typical focus would be Halacha. General studies are somewhat limited with those that offer it usually limiting it to high school level, despite having the student in the system until the low 20s.

The Yeshiva maintains spiritual guides "Mashpi'im," teachers "Ma'agid Shiur," and deans "Rosh Yeshiva."

I hope this explains how Yeshiva works.

Jehovah's Witnesses
JW also refuse to use weapons. But this does not mean they aren't fundamentalists. So, I find the they do not bear weapons defense a weak argument.

People have the prejudice that fundamentalist means violent, just as they have the prejudice that schizophrenic means violent. Both prejudices are wrong. tgeorgescu (talk) 05:08, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

In case you wonder, applying the label fundamentalist to the Haredim is no longer disputed in the mainstream academia or mainstream media. That ship has sailed for a long time. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:40, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

The requirement for editing Wikipedia is being reality-based, as rendered in reliable sources. There is no requirement of being gullible or of bowing down to religious authorities. There is no requirement of pampering cults or religions. tgeorgescu (talk) 11:10, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

If you ask me, JW are at the same time nonviolent and a paranoid apocalyptic cult. tgeorgescu (talk) 06:18, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * , no responsible Wikipedia editor would ask you for your personal opinion, and you should not offer it out of context. I might share your opinion off-Wikipedia, but here, the only thing that matters is what reliable, independent sources say, when evaluating such as assessment. What is the value in offering your unsolicited opinion about the Jehovah's Witnesses in the talk page of Haredi Judaism?Cullen328  Let's discuss it  06:37, 11 November 2021 (UTC)


 * The article provides the uncited defense they do not bear weapons. JW don't bear weapons, either, see above. More precisely, it says verbatim Haredim do not join armies and do not bear arms. As if that were an exemption from being considered fundamentalist.
 * So, of course, I give my opinion because it addresses a real problem with the article, a problem no one has addressed for the past three months.
 * The Haredi editors simply tried to refute my many WP:RS with unsourced WP:CPP. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:17, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
 * , in my view, "pacifist", "paranoid" and "fundamentalist" are independent concepts that may have some Venn diagram overlaps but are not at all equivalent. Many years ago, at the University of San Francisco, I researched the theological differences and similarities between draft resistance in the United States between the Quakers, the Mennonites (including the Amish) and the Jehovah's Witnesses. The deep and profound differences in each group's reasoning for resisting military service convinced me that facile "cookie cutter" explanations for their opposition to military service did a great disservice to these groups. This was about 20 years before Wikipedia was founded. The same resistance to cookie cutter classification applies to the various Haredi groups, which exist on a continuum from religious Zionism to the groups that utterly reject Zionism and military service. See Hardal for a group that strives to bridge this divide. Cullen328   Let's discuss it  07:22, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Fundamentalism or not...

 * Main discussion: Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 350


 * I introduced the fundamentalism part to the article and I agree that 's version is more informative. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:21, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Please consider monitoring flagrant lies and antisemetism.
. 188.64.207.138 (talk) 19:18, 23 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Which lies and antisemitism are you referring to? Mcljlm (talk) 23:10, 23 January 2023 (UTC)


 * As stated above "fundamentalism" does not necessarily entail "violent". And the label of "fundamentalism" is sourced to non-fundamentalist Rabbis and other Jewish scholars.
 * About sexual abuse: any closed religious community suffers from similar problems, so Wikipedia does not single out the Haredi. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:55, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

"Which lies and antisemitism are you referring to?" I already answered this, you guys deleted it.

"As stated above "fundamentalism" does not necessarily entail "violent". And the label of "fundamentalism" is sourced to non-fundamentalist Rabbis and other Jewish scholars." What kind of idiotic straw man is this? Who cares?

"any closed religious community suffers from similar problems, so Wikipedia does not single out the Haredi." Again, weird straw man. This Wikipedia article is only dealing with Charedim. And it's only the Charedi world it's lying about. Certainly you should have the integrity to not lie elsewhere, but this is the article I'm looking at.

"Cases of pedophilia, sexual violence, assaults, and abuses against women and children occur in roughly the same rates in Haredi communities as in the general population"

This statement is not supported by a single source cited here, and is not statistically true. You can argue that it's all kept hidden by the entire Charedi world, fine, but then we should see high rates of molestation and rape reported in people who leave the Charedi world; since the general population is 1/6-1/4, we should have much higher rates that that in those of whom leave, because obviously the victims of such heinous crimes are (1) more likely to leave, and (2) unlikely to hide what they experienced once they leave. But we don't see anywhere near those numbers. Most studies of that population (that leaves the Charedi world) yield a sub-1% rate of rape and molestation. This is just a grotesque lie.

Most of these articles are centered around American Charedim. The molestation and rape rate in America is, depending on which figures you want to accept, between one sixth and one quarter of women and girls. These figures are insane to accuse the Charedi world of. It's wrong by literal magnitudes.

"however, they are rarely discussed or reported to the authorities"

Secular authorities, like criminal prosecutors. This ignores that Charedim also have a criminal system.

"and frequently downplayed by members of the communities"

I can acknowledge that mandatory chemical castration (or, if they refuse, going to prison) can be interpreted as downplaying things, so I did not debate this point. Nor did I attempt to edit it, if I recall.

.[252][253][254][255][256][257][258][259] Clearly no one defending the first two points read these articles. They don't contribute to the points they're cited for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.19.86.193 (talk) 17:29, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * We do not single out the Haredi, but also describe sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, Jehovah's Witnesses, and many other lesser known cults. The Jehovahs also have their own "legal" system, based upon Old Testament law, which makes the prosecution of the perpetrators highly unlikely (e.g. there have to be two direct male witnesses to every abuse, condition which is rarely met). tgeorgescu (talk) 06:42, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Repeatedly trying to edit blatant lies
The lie that the Charedi world experiences the same rate of child molestation as the secular world is a gross and blatant lie, completely unsupported by the links cited.

I have tried correcting this multiple times. It is being automatically reset and ignored.

The fact that I -- and effective no one in the Charedi world -- know how to use this website effectively doesn't make you people corrdect, it just makes you better at using the internet.

Your lies and antisemetism is highly concerning. Your lack of journalistic integrity is more concerning. The fact that white supremacists can use both of these issues to their benefit against Jews is even more concerning. That last one is the reason I even encountered this site. 46.19.86.193 (talk) 06:35, 26 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia does not lack Orthodox Jewish editors. In fact, they seem to de facto rule in articles which do not get much attention from the rest of the Wikipedia Community, and some of them seek to proselytize, but only in respect to non-Orthodox Jews. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:06, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Schools?
The sentence "Boys and girls attend separate schools, and proceed to higher Torah study, in a yeshiva or seminary, respectively" implies that boys go to yeshiva and girls to seminary. Is that correct? 142.163.195.205 (talk) 21:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Kinda. It describes some moderate American haredi culture. "Seminary" is the correct word for a women's gap-year program in Jewish Orthodoxy, as distinct from "yeshiva", which can be used for any level of men's education, and from "rabbinical seminary", which might be used for a degree-granting postgraduate vocational program for men. But such programs are more characteristic of Modern Orthodox / Dati Judaism and only attended by the more liberal American haredi communities. IMO it should be updated to reflect that the vast majority of Haredi women do not enroll in formal torah learning programs after high school. Also I'm a little bit confused by that paragraph; if it means to refer to high schools as "seminaries", that would not be correct GordonGlottal (talk) 20:06, 16 May 2024 (UTC)