Talk:Hari Singh Nalwa

Comments
There are contradictions within the two references. While one states that Hari Singh was killed "dishonorably" from behind, the other source says that Hari Singh died due to internal wounds from an Afghan cannon ball launched by Dost Mohammad Khan's army. So what are we to believe?

Please State The References Vibhuwastaken (talk) 13:35, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

User:24.108.182.49
Someone with more expertise than me needs to review the edits by User:24.108.182.49. All the other edits from this user are nonsense or vandal. The text inserted sounds authoritative, but its hard to tell. --Vees 03:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't get this:

Nalwa was dishonourably murdered in an ambush from behind.

and then you say:

He died when 60,000 troops attacked his fort. The sikhs told him that they were about to attack as they thought he had died however he was still alive.

Which was it? And what Sikhs told him that that they were about to attack? Attack who? Whose side were they on? And did you mean Baron Charles Hugel?

Tidy up tag added
We need to work on this article with info for this famous and great general.

No offence, but he was very feared and loved, but none of his exploits are fully mentioned or acknowledged.

We need some more info on his background.

He was a powerful Khatri warlord.

--Mein hoon don 14:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Nalwa article
Okay I also believe he was amazing, but we need to cite some references with the quoted material or else people are going to question its authenticity. Whoever put up that amazing quote from the British newspaper needs to also give the source so that it validates the article more. Without citing references, the article will lack strength.

Also, I am going to contact his descendants (the Nalwa Family) and see if they can furnish any additional info. I should be in Punjab this April-May, so I'll pay them a visit.

Gorkhali (talk) 03:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Vandal deletions of ref by user British Raja
Please do not delete references from this article as you have done twice already for no assignable reason
 * Instance 1 of Deletion of references by British Raja


 * Instance 2 of deletion of same references again on 8 February 2009 by British Raja

Please do not delete these references a third time. Intothefire (talk) 06:42, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Khatri should be replaced by jatt bcz he was jatt Kala 19 (talk) 09:24, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


 * now that the khatris have had our lands stolen from us in western punjab even our history is being stolen from us. congratulations. 38.64.185.51 (talk) 21:01, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
 * He was a khatri how can you say that he was jat his living descendant Vanit Nalwa had already said that he was a khatri and I (vanit nalwa) am khatri as well which is also mentioned in the book written by her. Dark Armed Lord (talk) 14:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Gurjranwala or Kashmir
I think we need more sources for the Kashmir claim, also this edit is a little messy. Pahari Sahib 15:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

VANDALISM
We have a new vandal, so be prepared and keep a keen watch on Harisinghnalwa a chap who has shown up as of today April 6th and has begun their vandalism.

It boggles my mind why do people do this.

Gorkhali (talk) 05:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

What about today, I mean 28th April 2011 ??? I have constantly been writing about Hari Singh that Yousafzai women would say about him "Raghe Hari Singh Teezan" ("Hari Singh Dangerous is coming")or Raghe Hari Singh Kunee ("Hari Singh The Brave is coming"). But this is being deleted which is pathetic !!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.186.160.59 (talk) 19:31, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Website sourcing
Can someone please explain to me why http://www.harisinghnalwa.com satisfies WP:RS. - Sitush (talk) 19:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It seems to have some good books cited in their, but I'll leave it to you. S H 23:23, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * We could always use those books directly, rather than relying on the website as a tertiary source. The main problem is that it is effectively an advocacy group, established to preserve/promote his memory - such things are usually only reliable as sources about themselves, as has been pointed out time and again at the reliable sources noticeboard. - Sitush (talk) 00:54, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

plz see again the line that hari singh nalwa led the armies in kashmir, and secured koh-i-noor it was misr chand a hindu khatri not a sikh have a look at sources ---

plz search for once "misr diwan chand kashmir 1819" on google or google books you will yourself found all the references, this is plain propaganda by sikhs and its disgusting. let us show when hari singh was the chief of this operation.122.161.78.118 (talk) 20:01, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * That does not answer the question that I posed. It is possible for there to be two reliable but differing opinions, for example. I have previously explained this to you. - Sitush (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

i am not doubting two origins or stories if i am not wrong i have clearly mentioned on list of rajputs about shivaji multiple origin theory that is about his caste but in this case their is no doubt and i am sure that apart from that one book, hari singh nalwa the champion of khalsaji which is a mere exaggeration of facts in favor of the writer ancestor no good historian(including sikhs) will ever write that hari singh was the leading chief in kashmir campaign.122.161.36.54 (talk) 07:15, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I am going to remove the citations that use this source. As noted above, if there is any useful info there then it should be possible to obtain it from other sources. - Sitush (talk) 15:13, 29 April 2012 (UTC)

I have read the book, apparently Diwan Chand was leading the Lahore troops, while Hari Singh Nalwa was leading the jagirdari fauj or troops...SITUSH pl read the book, before you let the Marathi Manoos influence your point of view! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Twiceplus plus (talk • contribs) 07:51, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Duggal source
Why is Duggal - - a reliable source? His book contains no footnotes, no indication of his authority and a very worrying preface where someone says that Duggal has fixed some common misunderstandings relating to Singh. Nothing wrong with him offering his opinions etc, of course, but without any indication of his authority it causes me to query whether we should use him at all - we do not know whether he is a fringe theorist or mainstream, for example. - Sitush (talk) 15:38, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * KS Duggal is an OK source as far as I can see. He's been cited in other articles to do with Sikh figures. S H 23:25, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You mean that he has been used in other Wikipedia articles or that he has been cited by other historians? Who is he? - Sitush (talk) 00:51, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

man i have add JD CUNNINGHAM source as well you have deleted it, second thing their are snippet views as all books are not available and further for reference best of sikh historians hari ram gupta, khushwant singh,harbans singh all say the same thing but their books are not available completely only snippet views are.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=FdPFkAsDJVgC&pg=PR40&dq=mohkam+chand+shah+shuja&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_hIjT5veE4HtrQeF0IC1CA&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=mohkam%20chand%20shah%20shuja&f=false

refer to this work, its by jd cunningham but you termed it "NOT RELIABLE" as far as i know jd cunnigham is quite a reliable scholar.

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=mohkam+chand+shah+shuja&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1#hl=en&tbo=1&tbm=bks&sclient=psy-ab&q=mohkam+chand+brought+shah+shuja&pbx=1&oq=mohkam+chand+brought+shah+shuja&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=7826l9736l0l9965l8l8l0l0l0l1l140l1078l0.8l8l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=39579889749b37a7&biw=1280&bih=629

all the noted sikh historians it was diwan mohkam chand who brought shah shuja alive and as promised his wife wafa begum gave koh-i-noor but the fact is these are snippet views. i think this is more than convincing evidence .122.161.36.54 (talk) 21:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=mohkam+chand+shah+shuja&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1#q=mohkam+chand+brought+shah+shuja&hl=en&tbo=1&tbm=bks&ei=4RMjT-GoGZGrrAealtSoCA&start=20&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=39579889749b37a7&biw=1280&bih=629

their are more than enough evidence, i maybe little bit aggresive or i react quickly but i am not adding anything wrong, syed muhammad latif is noted historian from punjab, khushwant singh himself a noted scholar, sir lipen henry griffin all are quite standard historians of sikh empire and its clear that diwan mohkam chand the C-IN-C of sikh empire brought shah shuja, yes hari singh accompanied him.122.161.36.54 (talk) 21:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Cunningham and Griffin are too old, and they were British Raj writers who had peculiar and discredited outlooks. They should not be used except very occasionally in extremis. This is not such a situation. - Sitush (talk) 00:50, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

and what about hari ram gupta, harbans singh, khushwant singh ,fauja singh,syed muhamad latif.122.161.36.54 (talk) 01:04, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


 * You did not cite them, and so I did not remove them. Are you saying that you have listed them in among all of your comments above? You see, I could not even be bothered reading every one of those because of the ranting that was going on. I'll happily do so if you point them out to me, but that was a classic case of you generating "more heat than light". - Sitush (talk) 01:20, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

i said it that, i have only snippets of those, full view not available. "Empty containers like you make more noise"122.161.36.54 (talk) 02:40, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, if you have only seen snippet view then that is not acceptable here. Ever. - Sitush (talk) 02:45, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

i know you are angry, because i have fucked you so many times, everytime you tried to show yourself as "COOL", i again and again showed that you are a dumb fool. Dont take all this on heart, i know you are furious.122.161.36.54 (talk) 03:11, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I Have an extensive....
Library on the Nalwa Sardar. I will start going through it and posting them for you to sift through Sitush. Thanks S H 23:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to say but i have read most gud books on sikh empire by noted historians such as hari ram gupta, fauja singh,harbans singh,khushwant singh and i dont think you will provide any new info. 122.161.36.54 (talk) 01:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Let's see what turns up. Best to be open-minded. - Sitush (talk) 01:21, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Hari Ram Gupta is an excellent scholar. S H 08:22, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

not only hari ram gupta, but others such as fauja singh, harbans singh bhatia, khushwant singh, and ganda singh all of them are top historians of sikhs and second thing i have read 4 of them hari ram gupta, harbans singh, khushwant singh and fauja singh. among european scholars on sikh JD cunningham(though he is partial at times) and lepel griffin books are good on sikhs history. 122.161.127.181 (talk) 08:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Cunningham and Griffin are serious last resorts - too old. - Sitush (talk) 08:30, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok I have been looking at this book Hari Singh Nalwa Champion of the Khalsaji by Vinit Nalwa, which seems to be the most comprehensive research. It states that Diwan Mokham Chand lef the attackmon the Attock. As for the Kohinoor, there is mention of Ranjit Singh but not Harin Singh or Diwan Mokham Chand. It should be noted that the above mentioned HariSinghNalwa website is also linked to this book. The book is very well researched. What it does say id Hari Singh was sucessful in pushing the Afghans from this side of the Khyber pass and conquered Peshawar (the second Afghan capital). It also notes that Afghan women still put their children to sleep by saying "be quiet or Haria (Hari Singh Nalwa) will come".S H 11:58, 29 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Ignoring the stuff below (I cannot even be bothered reading it properly due to the ranting), that book seems dodgy to me. Look at the publisher's name. - Sitush (talk) 11:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Manohar Publisher are good as far as I know. I have used several of their books in my own work as references. The Hari Singh Nalwa foundation is a legitimate organisation. On top of that I spent a few hours going through the book. It is well researched with some excellent illustrations maps. It's up to you Sitush, but I went through several other books and found this to be one of the best. Best Wishes S H 18:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I've also looked into Vanit Nalwa. She seems ok to me. Thanks S H 18:43, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

dont even say this to anyone the book which you are referring to is nothing more than a "CRAP", find me citations to that book, that book is only to promote the "KHALISTAN" concept , the author in that book tried her best to show that "HARI SINGH NALWA" is the greatest which he is NOT, any good historian will rate "DIWAN MOHKAM CHAND AND DIWAN MISR CHAND" both hindu khatri above HARI SINGH NALWA. That work is one of the most unreliable works, many of the "CLAIMED" facts are not even backed by any evidence. This also shows that what i was saying was true, the fact i am neither a sikh nor a hindu punjabi but i am more than aware of Sikhs and their history and i am shocked at times that Hindu Punjabi dont claim any credit for sikh empire even though their are two hindu punjabi generals who were greatest general of maharaja ranjit singh , it was only in the last years when a sikh hari singh became the commander in chief of sikh armies otherwise it was hindu generals as well as army from punjab,jammu.122.161.150.213 (talk) 05:27, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

This is all useless, she is not even a scholar, and i couldnt find any reference of her or her work by other scholars. Here i am taking the names of scholar such as hari ram gupta, harbans singh,khushwant singh and you are referring to vanit nalwa, that work is probably the most unreliable work , an over-exaggeration of hari singh nalwa. For her all HINDUS are evil and only hari singh nalwa was a great general .The reality Hari Singh was no match for Diwan Mohkam Chand or Diwan Misr Chand. Hari singh became chief of sikh armies in 1825 by then these two HINDU GENERALS have made durrani empire and afghans a mere "PUNCHING BAG" their strength was destroyed by two HINDU generals. 122.161.150.213 (talk) 05:48, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

infact it is sikhs like "VANIT NALWA" why the coming generation of sikhs are forgetting that Maharaja Ranjit Singh was sher-e-punjab because of hindu khatri, she is no more than a "KHALISTANI" mindset sikh and as a hindu i can only laugh upon at her work. Its shameful because generals such as diwan mohkam chand and diwan chand who were COMMANDER IN CHIEF and supreme generals of ranjit singh is defamed by a woman writer who claims to be descendant of hari singh. I am sure that even Hari Singh would be ashamed of such descendants who are trying to give the glory of other generals to him. 122.161.150.213 (talk) 05:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Multan and Kashmir belongs to Hindu Diwan Chand Ranjit Singh
http://books.google.co.in/books?id=vOPb4SnrsWAC&pg=PA140&dq=diwan+chand+multan+1818&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FLEqT9quOY7SrQfr4u3tDA&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=diwan%20chand%20multan%201818&f=false.

Both these important places were conquered by Hindu Diwan Chand not a sikh---http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Q0ABAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA31&dq=diwan+chand+multan+1818&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aLIqT6ipOMTTrQfxvZn2DA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=diwan%20chand%20multan%201818&f=false

It is obvious that the web of myths which sikhs have made around that they protected HINDUS, hahahahaha Hindu dont need protection we were the one Maratha Empire which first attacked Mogul Empire capital Delhi in 1737 that is 2 years before nadir shah, similarly nadir shah never proceeded further from delhi it was the advice of sadaat khan who knew that all his baggage and cavaran will be looted by Maratha. Similarly it was a Hindu Rajput Lacchman dev who founded the first sikh kingdom, it was two hindu general diwan mohkam chand and diwan chand who completed destroyed the strength of Durrani Empire and also send a message to sikhs that the INVINCIBLE Pashtuns are not only weak but can be routed in full fledge battles. In battle of Attock in 1814 Diwan Mohkam Chand defeated Wazir Fateh Khan(Governor of Kabul) and his brother Dost Mohammad Khan(later become the Emir of Afghanistan) in an open pitched battle it was this battle which marks the beginning of Afghan decline and Indian Upsurge.

To celebrate his victory he made a Ram temple in attock but unfortunately before temple was completed he died in the same year(1814). 122.161.111.128 (talk) 16:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

really
don't show me all this muscle...i'll stick it in... come...net sessions...coach is calling.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.199.110.80 (talk) 11:36, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Dubious sourcing
Someone has been adding a lot of information recently. It appears mostly to be unsourced, and those bits that do have a footnote are citing "Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa Published by SIKH MISSIONARY COLLEGE (REGD.) Page 4". What is this book? Who wrote it? Why is it reliable? Where can we get a copy? Why is there SHOUTING in there? - Sitush (talk) 10:41, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi, This is the source i was using http://www.rajkaregakhalsa.net/literature/General%20Sikhism/Sardar%20Hari%20Singh%20Nalwa.pdf is it relable ? if not i will undo my editings. Thank YouMarwahasaab (talk) 12:55, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Is there someone here who has done more than read snippet view of books available on the internet? Does anyone check the veracity of the references being cited? Most of the authors cited here DO NOT provide the source of their information...are they reliable because the version of the book being referred to (written during the British Raj) has been reprinted in the twentieth century? Cunningham is being dubbed as an 'unreliable' source for Ranjit Singh's era, this is news to students of history. Going solely by the proceedings reported on this page, this seems to be a forum where 'Sikhs' are pitted against 'Hindus' (promoted by a 'Muslim'?) If there is no mention of Hari Singh Nalva in the works of established historians (Hari Ram Gupta, Khushwant Singh etc) why not delete this page altogether... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Runjeet (talk • contribs) 12:34, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, the source linked o above by Marwahasaab is certainly not reliable and this is for the reasons that you give. Any objections to removing it? - Sitush (talk) 17:09, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

To Runjeet: Can you please list what you think is objectionable? As I understand it, Hari Singh Nalwa is a major historical figure in that time period because his role as a general. I have a number of history books that focus on this time period and I can help edit the article further.--Profitoftruth85 (talk) 01:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

To Sitush: Pl remove

To Profitoftruth85: If you have access to the complete printed version of books on the subject please do help with the editing of this page. We need editors who are knowledgeable, balanced, have an interest in the subject and not merely in character assassination! If X general is the greatest, well then let the Wikipedia page dedicated to the person speak up... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Runjeet (talk • contribs) 12:24, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

To Sitush: Singhia, H.S. (2009). The encyclopedia of Sikhism. New Delhi: Hemkunt Press. ISBN 978-81-7010-301-1. Ever heard of Hemkunt Press? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Runjeet (talk • contribs) 08:33, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

To Profitoftruth85 or Sitush or any knowledgeable person please help...if I want to quote a reference source - if A is quoting B in his book, then do I give the reference as A or B? If I give B then the reference dates the period of the British Raj and if I quote A then it is a twentieth century author. Please help(talk) 011:10, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

According to Singhia (2009), Hari Singh Nalwa was the Governor of Multan in 1822...This is incorrect. He was the Governor/Jagirdar of Hazara and not Multan. (British Raja (talk) 04:25, 15 September 2012 (UTC))


 * I am finding this section very difficult to understand. However, in response to, I'd appreciate more information regarding the Singhia point. That source is used only in the infobox, which is itself odd because stuff in infoboxes should usually also appear in the main text (infoboves are summaries just as much as lead sections. Did Singhia write the entire work or was he editor of contributions made by others? If the latter, is the contribution for Nalwa attributed to someone? Finally, do we have any sources (plural) that contradict Singhia's claim that Nalwa was Governor of Multan? - Sitush (talk) 08:55, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Vanit Nalwa
Sorry because I know that people have raised the issue of Vanit Nalwa before, but how the heck can she be a reliable source? Someone above actually went to the trouble of linking to her profile and what is clear is that she has absolutely no relevant academic expertise at all, and does have a considerable self-interest in the subject matter because of her role with the Trust. All statements sourced to her should be removed or re-sourced. - Sitush (talk) 18:03, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I've opened a discussion at WP:RSN - see here. - Sitush (talk) 09:14, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Sitush (Sir/Ma’am), as a student of history I am quite surprised at your attack on the author of a book rather than questioning its sources. Do you have a personal score to settle with Vanit Nalwa? Our history professor actually gave the example of this book on Hari Singh Nalwa as a 'model' biography, reasons: the author has included new information backed by references (besides providing references for previously unreferenced information), included relevant art work and material from popular culture. I am surprised that similar issues are not raised for other author-descendants. I read 'Soldier sahibs' by Charles Allen with interest. Checked out the wikipage for 'John Nickolson'...six of the twelve references were attributed to Charles Allen (his descendant)...the other main source referred to is Trotter's book written in the nineteenth century. None of the issues raised by you here for Vanit Nalwa seem to apply to the John Nicholson page. Does Wikipedia have different rules depending on ethnicity? Is it because Allen is 'white' and therefore right? AMAZING Twiceplus plus (talk) 02:51, 28 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:OSE. - Sitush (talk) 08:49, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Sitush, Hari Singh Nalwa's father has been identified as 'Gurdial Singh' by Sandhu and everyone else other than Vanit Nalwa. She identifies Hari Singh Nalwa's father as one 'Gurdas Singh'. Please 'correct' either Hari Singh Nalwa's father's name or give the 'correct' reference...˜˜˜˜ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Twiceplus plus (talk • contribs) 11:53, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Hari Singh in Kashmir
Madan, Zutshi, Schofield's input would be more appropriate under 'Sikh rule' rather than here. According to Sandhu, Hari Singh Nalwa was "...entrusted with the Government of Kashmir" and was "...one of the most able and popular Sikh governors which the Sikhs have had." Sandhu is quoting the British political agent, Wade (in a letter written to the Governor General dated 13 March 1831). Ref: Bengal Political Consultations Range 126, Vol 25, India Office MSS Records, (see Sandhu p. 20). Help please help (talk) 05:44, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Reliable sourcing
(Please see the British Raja talk page for more)

"Cunningham and Griffin are too old, and they were British Raj writers who had peculiar and discredited outlooks. They should not be used except very occasionally in extremis. This is not such a situation. - Sitush (talk) 00:50, 28 January 2012 (UTC)"

What does "too old" mean? The period of history being dealt with here dates 1791-1837. Cunningham worked in the war office at the time of the Anglo-Sikh wars (1840's). J D Cunningham had insider information; when he revealed that the British had bribed the leaders of the Sikhs to win the war, he was transferred from his post. Lepel Griffin's 'Chiefs of the Punjab' (1865) was the first source of biographical information about various members of Ranjit Singh's court (Hindu, Muslim and Sikh), extensively referred to thereafter.

Why have the following references been deleted -

1. Masson (1842) gives an eyewitness account of the occupation of Peshawar in 1834. This deserter from the British army (who became a British political agent later) was in the employ of the Afghans as he stood on a terrace watching the Sikhs march into Peshawar! Why is his first-hand account unreliable?

2. von Hügel (1845) visited Haripur Hazara in 1835-6 and gave a detailed description of the place; he later met Hari Singh Nalwa in Gujranwala and provided a description of his house and garden. He was an Austrian/German traveller, who not only visited Maharajah Ranjit Singh's Punjab (including Kashmir), but British India and Australia. His works are widely referred to, not only for history, but for other reasons as well. Why is his first-hand account unreliable?

3. Burnes (1834) was a British Agent/spy whose book was published during Maharajah Ranjit Singh's lifetime. He was killed in Kabul before the Punjab was annexed by the British. During his passage through the trans-Indus region in 1832, he wrote, "On our road to Acora, we passed a field of battle, at the small village of Sydoo, where 8000 Seiks had defended themselves against an enraged population of 150,000 Mahommedans." Why is this unreliable?

Reference to various Gazetteers, works of nineteenth century poets of the Punjab etc etc have similarly been deleted. Why are they unreliable?

Sitush pl confirm that you will not delete the reference to Sachdeva (1993) and others...someone who knows Sikh History needs to moderate this page. British Raja (talk) 06:55, 30 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The old sources that you refer to are unreliable for historical facts etc. They are theoretically ok for their own opinion but the opinions of members of the British Raj were so twisted by racism etc that they are often scarcely rational. The more general issue here is not knowledge of Sikh history but knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines: if you do not like them then you'll either have to get them changed or find some other outlet to say what you want to say. It looks almost certain that Ms Nalwa is going to be removed from this article, by the way. - Sitush (talk) 07:21, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * An example of the problem is highlighted by you: did Burnes count those 158,000 people present at the battle and work out the split? Or did he take the word of some self-glorifying Sikh, who exaggerated the figure from, say, 15,000. We know that there was a lot of self-glorification and we know that the writers of the Raj often took things at face value. - Sitush (talk) 07:28, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Please answer the questions:

1. What I understand from what you are saying, is that the British Agent sitting in Ludhiana was sending false information to his Governor General about the proceedings in Maharajah Ranjit Singh's empire (National Archive Records). He was grossly exaggerating the Sikh chiefs' achievements? (reverse racism) The Peshawar Gazetteer states "In such awe were his (Hari Singh Nalwa's) visitations held that his name was used by mothers as a term of affright to hush their unruly children. But lately old grey beards (who would have been young men then) were alive to point out the hills over which they were chased "like sheep" by the Singh, and men still show where their fathers fought and fell." If the information in the first sentence is correct (ref: Caroe and Charles Allen), why is the next sentence incorrect. What is racist about this? OK, it upsets the Afghans/Muslims and therefore should not be used, is that it? Or is this a statement by some self-glorifying Sikh?

2. Why are you telling me about Ms Nalwa? Pl do remove her, this page is not about her.

3. I happen to have read Burnes book. He had Muslims and a Hindu, Mohan Lal, (employees of the East India Company) as companions...a Sikh has never been mentioned as his source of information, perhaps you know one who was his companion and or his informer...His statement can be construed to mean that the Muslims far-outnumbered the Sikhs - or not that?

4. I repeat - pl confirm that you will not delete the reference to Sachdeva (1993) and others (by others I did not mean Ms Nalwa). British Raja (talk) 08:22, 30 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Regarding your first point: quite probably, the information was incorrect. Just like that of James Tod. With regard to Nalwa, I mention it as a courtesy because you are the person who even a couple of days ago was still inserting refs to her book and ignoring my thread about her which was started prior to that. You seem to be perhaps disingenuous in your third point - where did those companions get their info from? And where did Burnes say he got it from? If you bother to look at WP:RSN from time to time then you'll have noticed that such old British pre-Raj sources are routinely deemed not to be reliable.
 * Regarding Sachdeva, well, I haven't really looked into that one in great detail yet. I am not in a position to confirm or deny at present. - Sitush (talk) 09:00, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I've just tried to look at Sachdeva but cannot because the book is not named - all we have is "Sachdeva (1993)" and some page numbers. - Sitush (talk) 09:41, 30 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Are you suggesting that the British Agent (employee of the East India Company) transmitted highly exaggerated information about Maharajah Ranjit Singh's independent empire situated across the Satluj to the British Governor General for over one-and-a-half decades (in favour of the Sikhs)? This agent was knighted following the death of Maharajah Ranjit Singh. This clearly makes no sense...


 * Pl see regarding the insertion of references.


 * Still not clear why the first statement "...a term of affright to hush their unruly children" taken from the Peshawar Gazetteer is correct and the second "But lately old grey beards ... point out the hills over which they were chased "like sheep" by the Singh, and men still show where their fathers fought and fell" is incorrect (same edition, same page, same para). The Gazetteer was compiled after the annexation of the Punjab (long after the death of Maharajah Ranjit Singh, Hari Singh Nalwa and other influential Sikhs), at which time the Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims/Afghans/tribes were British subjects. This is what I understand from the above - what Olaf Caroe, twice British governor of Peshawar and author of 'The Pathans 550 B.C.-A.D. 1957', Macmillan and Company, London 1958, (accused of being too close to the Muslim league) says "Raghe Hari Singh or ‘Hari Singh is here’ was the bogey called up by distraught Khalil and Mohmand mothers to quieten fractious children” is true, and that the second statement 'were chased "like sheep"' is incorrect. What is the rationale? Is Caroe reliable? Could he too possibly have been tutored by the Sikhs? Please confirm.


 * Burnes (East India Company's envoy) passed through Maharajah Ranjit Singh's empire on his way to Kabul, a year following the death of the Sayyid Ahmed Barelvi. If I remember correctly, an Afghan escort received him once he had crossed the Indus to provide him safe passage through the territory of the Khattaks, Yusafzais, Afridis and other Pakhtun tribes...His possible source(s) of information could have been: those who fought in this battle (1827), had lost a relative, or were eye-witnesses to the event. Burnes traversed the actual field on which the battle was fought. He does not specifically mention that a Sikh provided him with this information.


 * Why are Masson and Hugel not reliable sources? They give eye-witness accounts...you removed a reference to a decaying wall around the town of Hazara!


 * Are you comparing Tod's work with that of Lepel Griffin's 'Chiefs'? Not clear from above...


 * I await a response on Sachdeva (and others) whenever you are in a position to confirm or deny. British Raja (talk) 12:15, 30 September 2012 (UTC)


 * You seem not to be reading/appreciating what I say here. This is evident from your repeated statement about Sachdeva, whom I have already said I cannot review because the cite is incomplete. As for the rest, take them to WP:RSN if you must: you know my position and no amount of discussion here will change it - I've been sourcing/evaluating sources for Indic articles over a long period and your arguments are no different from those that I have seen on countless past occasions. The result is always the same: consensus is that pre-Raj and Raj sources are not reliable for fact, only for their own opinions. - Sitush (talk) 12:52, 30 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I am adding more references (complete cites) so that you can conduct a review. British Raja (talk) 03:46, 1 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by British Raja (talk • contribs) 03:42, 1 October 2012 (UTC)


 * You added a ref for Sachdeva. Thanks for that, but the ISBN returns no results. A typo? - Sitush (talk) 18:40, 1 October 2012 (UTC)


 * As printed. British Raja (talk) 01:39, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Well. that is not a good start: if the publisher cannot even print its own ISBN correctly ... - Sitush (talk) 01:45, 4 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Pl see  — Preceding unsigned comment added by British Raja (talk • contribs) 10:00, 4 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Aha, it is here. The isbn appears possibly to be 9788170720560 (I'll check) and it looks likely to have evolved from a conference held at or organised by the Sikh University. I'll have to see if I can get a copy. - Sitush (talk) 10:21, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Undue weight in Popular culture section
The Popular culture section shows quotes from hagiographic poets of the 19t century etc. Are there no views from the other side, ie: his opponents? - Sitush (talk) 08:09, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Who were Hari Singh Nalwa's opponents (or more accurately - the opponents of the Sikhs) according to you? British Raja (talk) 08:25, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Erm, those whom he fought against. And their successors. I didn't mention Sikhs - please do not put words into my mouth. - Sitush (talk) 08:53, 30 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I do not know what you mean? Hari Singh Nalwa had friends and enemies amongst the Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, Afghans, Yusafzais, Afridis etc...His name finds mention in a Pashto verse reported by a French author. His first biographer was a Muslim poet [this information was deleted by you]. There are more Hindu poets who sung his praise [deleted by you] than members of the Sikh fraternity! Though he was against the British, they eulogized him....in Tit-Bits [again information deleted by you]... British Raja (talk) 12:47, 30 September 2012 (UTC)


 * ... "had friends and enemies" - so where are the opinions of his enemies? We do not show just one side. - Sitush (talk) 10:14, 4 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Done British Raja (talk) 11:20, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Citation style
Any chance of us standardising on one citation style or another? At present, we use at least three and that is not how we are supposed to do it. Has anyone got a preference? - Sitush (talk) 10:31, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Let us follow the one that has been used here most often. Pl firm this...British Raja (talk) 11:19, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Changing of referenced information
User:Ghatus has changed,,;
 * "For the Muslims, Sikh rule was the darkest period of the history of the place, while for the Kashmiri Pandits (Hindus) nothing was worse than the Afghan rule. The Sikh conquest of Kashmir was prompted by an appeal from its Hindu population. The oppressed Hindus had been subjected to forced conversions, their women raped, their temples desecrated, and cows slaughtered.", to;


 * "For the Muslims, Sikh rule under Sikh and Dogra generals were the darkest period of the history of the place, while for the Kashmiri Pandits (Hindus) it was a welcome move as they had to face various difficulties during the 67 years of Afghan rule." and in the process removing this reference, Sufi, G. M. D. (1974) [First published 1948-1949], Kashir Being a History of Kashmir From the Earliest Times to Our Own 2 (Reprinted ed.), New Delhi: Life and Light Publishers, page 750. AND, not explaining how his change of the referenced sentences are supported by this source, Sandhu, Autar Singh (1935), General Hari Singh Nalwa, Lahore: Cunningham Historical Society, page 13. --Kansas Bear (talk) 15:47, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

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Unverifiable Sourcing
Weak sourcing and unverifiable claims do NOT serve to make a stronger case for someone, they only *dilute* and weaken the claims that are strong. The “Popular culture” reference to “one of the Greatest conquerors in the History of the world” needs to either be fixed, or deleted. The current citation is worthless, it just claims that “In 2014, Billionaires Australia” made this claim. I can find no reliable evidence (anywhere on Google or Bing) of the existence of any publication called “Billionaires Australia”. I can only find a couple of sources that just repeat the unsubstantiated claim that some publication made that claim: here - https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/sikh-warrior-hari-singh-nalwa-tops-list-of-top-ten-world-conquerors.393349/ and here - https://barusahib.org/general/hari-singh-nalwa/ but neither of them provide any link or actual evidence that “Billionaires Australia” actually exists! At this point it has no more credibility than a completely made up claim. It is not authoritative unless some real substantiation can be found which is possible for researchers to actually read... if not, it needs to be deleted. DKEdwards (talk) 21:34, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Ah, Good! I see that someone fixed this on March 13, 2020‎ by citing this 2014 article: http://dailysikhupdates.com/billionaire-australia-ranked-hari-singh-nalwa-fake-magazine/ DKEdwards (talk) 17:12, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

RE: Unsourced
The edits are not unsourced, in fact they come from the same source that was linked previously. I simply expanded on them. Please refer to Vanit Nalwa (13 January 2009). Hari Singh Nalwa, "champion of the Khalsaji" (1791-1837). Manohar, New Delhi. p. 21

Page 21 contains all the pertinent information. Kindly refrain from undoing the edit until further discussion on talk.

Abh9850 (talk) 00:28, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Understood. Though I recommend that you mention this in your edit summaries in the future so as to avoid such misunderstandings. Alivardi   (talk)  00:48, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

No worries, you're right. I will be specific on further edits Abh9850 (talk) 01:00, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2021
Plz add this image in the infobox image of Hari Singh Nalwa You can also redirect from below -: 2409:4065:21C:1CF7:1A79:B683:45A8:E373 (talk) 06:04, 9 July 2021 (UTC)
 * We're not going to use an enormous digital art piece with a watermark in the infobox. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 March 2023
The hari singh was killed in jamrud not in Khyber pass.. Khyber pass and jamrud are two separate locations , Khyber pass is approx 30 kilometers away from jamrud fort. The clear location where hari singh was killed, was jamrud fort.. only jamrud fort not Khyber pass. 39.40.89.113 (talk) 19:51, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 00:12, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Missing part (Semi-protected edit request)
Please add the next to the listing for the Battle of Jamrud (1837) where he died in battle in the Battles/wars section. 49.185.149.109 (talk) 15:24, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Done. ThethPunjabi (talk) 21:49, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Should we not write Military Campaigns of Hari Singh Nalwa instead of all wars
please tell Punjab lovers (talk) 05:04, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Military campaign
shouldn't we add Military campaigns page link on battles/wars section? Punjab lovers (talk) 16:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Vanit Nalwa
This non-scholarly and non-independent source is authored by Vanit Nalwa, who is a neuropsychologist and hypnotherapist by profession. This is non-independent source, as she is a relative of the subject. So this is not reliable for Sikh history. For historical details, please cite scholarly sources authored by historians – see WP:SCHOLARSHIP and WP:HISTAR. NitinMlk (talk) 23:26, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Possible Vandalism/Disruptive Editing
Reverting all repeated disruptive edits WP:DE by @Truthfindervert on the caste of Hari Singh Nalwa. There is uniform academic consensus that he was from the Uppal Khatri caste. Citing academic sources below. @Truthfindervert has been reverting years-long standing consensus on this page and is carrying out a lot of disruptive editing.

1. Brill Encylopedia of Sikhism, 2017, Khatris and Aroras, Hardeep Singh Syan, ‘Hari Singh Nalva (1791-1837), who was an Uppal Khatri

2. Maharaja Ranjit Singh, Politics, Society and Economy, 1984, Fauja Singh, pg 283 ‘Hari Singh Nalwa (an Uppal Khatri)

3. The Sikh Lion of Lahore, Hari Ram Gupta, The History of the Sikhs, 1978, pg 503 ‘Hari Singh Nalwa (an Uppal Khatri)

4. The Campaigns of General Hari Singh Nalwa, Gurbacharan Singh, 1995, pg 77 ’Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa, an Uppal Khatri’

5. International Journal of Research, 2014, SN Mishra, pg 2, ’Sardar Hari Singh Nalwa was born in 1791 CE to Sardar Gurdial Singh of the Uppal Khatri clan’

6. Historical Developments of Sikhism, RN Singh, 2003, pg 194, ‘Hari Singh Nalwa was born in the Uppal Khatri clan to Sardar Gurdial Singh’

7. Glimpses of Sikhism and Sikhs, Sher Singh, 2009, pg 206, ‘Nalwa of Khatri Uppal sub-caste’

8. An Encylopedia of Sikhism and Sikhs, 2009, Joginder Singh Sahi, pg 62, ‘Uppal Khatri family’ Abh9850 (talk) 09:27, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Abh9850 (talk) 09:28, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 May 2024
he was from jat background why did you remove it 2409:40D0:E:98FD:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 19:28, 3 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 19:41, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 June 2024
Hari Singh Nalwa was born in A Khatri Uppal Family not in Upaal Jat Sikhs Family 103.77.41.53 (talk) 10:24, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.   [[User:CanonNi ]]  (talk • contribs) 10:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Review recent changes?
Can somebody check the article's content regarding the subject's caste/community against the cited sources to see if they still match after the recent series of edits? See especially this and this edits. Abecedare (talk) 18:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 June 2024
Hari Singh Nalwa is Uppal Khatri not Uppal Jat her seventh Generation descendant Vanit Nalwa has mentioned him khatri and Jat historians like Autar Singh Aulakh have mentioned him as Khatri this page is tried to be vandalised by changing his caste back to back as Jat Uppal Please Pay Attention!!! Regards Munjaltanuj (talk) 16:43, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Amortias (T)(C) 16:44, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 June 2024 (2)
"Change Jats to Khatri" 2405:201:5804:F972:1D7E:4019:F74C:8280 (talk) 18:14, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Favonian (talk) 18:22, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 June 2024 (3)
"Change Jat to Khatri" Weirdares (talk) 18:32, 12 June 2024 (UTC)


 * please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Ternera (talk) 18:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 June 2024 (3)
"Please change Jat to Khatri" Weirdares (talk) 18:33, 12 June 2024 (UTC)


 * see my response to you above. Ternera (talk) 18:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 June 2024 (3)
Hari Singh was born in Gujranwala, in the Majha region of Punjab to Dharam Kaur and Gurdial Singh of the Uppal Jats community. "Please change Jats to Khatri" Weirdares (talk) 18:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made., your requests have been rejected 3 times. Stop repeating yourself, or you will be blocked from editing this talk page! Favonian (talk) 18:53, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 June 2024 (4)
Hari Singh Nalwa Belongs to Uppal Khatri Caste, His Ancestors were Uppal Khatri and he was Upper Class Kshatriya Sikh. Amandeep kalra (talk) 19:15, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Jamedeus (talk) 20:15, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Caste to Hari Singh nalwa
He was punjabi Khatri not jat Hardik1237445 (talk) 04:55, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 June 2024 He is Uppal Khatri not Uppal Jat Citation Given
Hari Singh Nalwa is a Uppal Khatri not a Uppal Jat, he is mentioned as Uppal Khatree (Khatri) in his book on Page 25 Para 2 line last by historian Avtar Singh Sandhu http://www.apnaorg.com/books/english/hari-singh-nalwa/book.php?fldr=book Munjaltanuj (talk) 15:30, 13 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Please Change Uppal Jat to Uppal Khatri Munjaltanuj (talk) 16:17, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ by in this edit. Left guide (talk) 10:55, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 July 2024
provide a link to the 'Ropar Meeting' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ropar_Meeting ComeSeptember (talk) 13:13, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ Left guide (talk) 10:23, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Hari Singh Nalwa did conquer the Entire Afghanistan
Hari Singh Nalwa took over Peshawar.And Peshawar was the Winter Capital of Afghanistan.Capture the State of a Country means conquering the Country. 117.251.69.160 (talk) 04:52, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * That would fall under WP:SYNTH and is also just plain not true. Please also see WP:NOTAFORUM. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 04:56, 16 July 2024 (UTC)