Talk:Harlem/Archive 2

economic nationalism, etc.
I moved this here from the article because I think it's worth including on some page, just not the Harlem one.


 * From the 1920s through the 1960s, groups advocated the creation of a new nation, to be sponsored by the United States, for the benefit of blacks. This nation was typically expected to be in Africa, though some groups advocated the creation of a new country by the partitioning of southern U.S. states. In an important variation, some groups, including the Nation of Islam, called for economic nationalism, whereby a parallel black economy would be created, free from the perceived exploitation by whites. In this context, what would have been routine entrepreneurial activity, like the formation of Carver Federal Savings Bank in 1949, took on political, even nationalist, overtones. (The founders insisted on black leadership for the bank, a challenge, as no black bank executives existed for them to hire.) Since the 1920s, various groups have demanded reparation payments to be made to black Americans ; this demand is still heard in Harlem today.


 * Uucp 03:52, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree, it's too much for a page that is already packed. --futurebird 04:12, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

People photos
I think that pics of harlem citizens might better illustrate this GOOD article. --–  Emperor Walt er Humala  · ( shout! · sign? ) 23:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Northern boundary
Does anyone have a source on Harlem's northern boundary? I'm seeing a lot of different estimates on the web... not vastly differing ones, but each off a few streets from each other. Does New York City have "official" boundaries for neighborhoods? I live in the area and 155th seems slightly too far south. No one would consider the area below the hill but north of 155th to be in Washington Heights, although perhaps above the hill that might be the case. Just wondering who decides these things... 68.161.31.243 18:15, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

A link to Renaissance
This morning I changed the internal link on "renaissance" in the first paragraph to point to the Harlem Renaissance. User Uucp reverted. I will happily yield to a major and frequent contributor, but just want to pose (to Uucp and others) the following question once. Does it not seem more likely that a reader here would expect further discussion regarding the cultural and artistic revival in Harlem, than an unrelated (though analogous) period in European history? Hult041956 00:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the discussion. Harlem Renaissance is already linked in the appropriate historical section, and in fact has its own page. Nobody coming to the Harlem page looking for information about the Harlem Renaissance will go away frustrated. The introduction, however, does not refer to the outpouring of arts in Harlem in the early-mid 20th century. It uses the word renaissance in its purely technical meaning of "rebirth." If you wanted to remove the link entirely, I would support that, as the current link is of minimal relevance. However, I think that changing it to the Harlem Renaissance would not improve things. Uucp 14:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I support removing the link entirely, per WP:OVERLINK.--Knulclunk 15:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * And I concur. Removing the link would be a small improvement. Uucp, I agree with you there's no issue of disappointment from lack of relevant information. My own reaction when reading the article the first time was that the jump to European history was non apropos. So I immediately jumped back, thinking "that's weird." It's a small point. But thanks for hearing me out. Hult041956 17:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * done. Uucp 13:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I changed the wording in the introductory paragraph from "renaissance" to "gentrification". Renaissance paints a rosy picture of the situation, as gentrification is more descriptive. "Gentrification" is used later in the article, including "Finally, wealthier New Yorkers, having gentrified every other part of Manhattan and much of Brooklyn, had nowhere else to go." Gentrification isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's just a more descriptive adjective. --67.84.207.247 (talk) 21:20, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

116th Street - Le Petit Senegal
Little Senegal along 116th has an article now. Should it be linked in somewhere? It doesn't have the history of the older neighborhoods, but it is sourced and encyclopedic. --Knulclunk 04:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You can if you want to, but I wouldn't bother. I have lived in Harlem for years, currently near to the area that the "Little Senegal" article describes, and I have never heard anybody use the term "little senegal". Though there are west african restaurants and stores selling african goods in the area, the number seems to be decreasing as the area gentrifies. Uucp 01:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I have heard the term, though admittedly not around the neighborhood. The External Links in the Little Senegal article seem solid about both the term and the growth. I will link them into the Little Senegal article and reword the language a bit. It should get at least a passing sentence in the Harlem article, even if to just link into to over there. I'll do a little research first (always a good idea!) Thank you again for all your efforts! --Knulclunk 03:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Note that most of the articles on the "Petite Senegal" page, while saying "gee, there are a lot of people from West Africa living around 116th Street," never use the term "Petite Senegal." It reads to me like the pet term of a couple of NYT reporters (the term did appear in the two NYT stories on the page, and perhaps only there). And while some of the articles say "there are more west africans here than there used to be," none of them claim or present any evidence to back the idea that the use of the term is increasing. Uucp 13:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I removed the term "growing" and replaced it with real numbers from the articles. (6,500 as of 2005). As far as "pet term of NYT reporters"... maybe so. I see that it has few Google hits and seems to be suffering from that circular Wiki-self reference problem. --Knulclunk 14:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

GA on hold
This article has been reviewed as part of WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there is an issue that may need to be addressed.


 * The lead doesn't adequately summarise the article. It should be expanded to around three paragraphs to adequately cover each section of the article.

I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GA/R). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAC. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions. Regards, Epbr123 09:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * As no improvements have been made, I'm afraid I've had to delist the article. Epbr123 (talk) 18:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Morningside Heights is not Harlem
In the 19th century, Harlem was broadly defined and included Morningside Heights. The neighborhoods became distinct in the early 20th century and authoritative sources since the 1920s or 1930s describe them as separate communities. See, for example, The Encyclopedia of New York edited by Kenneth Jackson, states clearly that Harlem is bordered to the west by Morningside Avenue -- in other words, it includes none of Morningside Heights. Also, Michael Henry Adams's Harlem Lost and Found, which excludes Morningside Heights, Pinkney & Woock's Power and Politics in Harlem similarly excludes Morningside Heights. I can list additional texts if you like.

Your argument that (1) they are "demographically similar" seems irrelevant. Philadelphia is demographically similar to Manhattan, that doesn't make them the same city. (2) The blog by the woman who isn't sure what neighborhood she lives in seems like odd support for your argument, and (3) your New York Times article about people in Morningside Heights who don't like it when people call their neighborhood "Harlem" seems to boost my side more than yours. Uucp (talk) 15:05, 24 February 2008 (UTC)