Talk:Harley-Davidson/Archive 1

1960 Topper Scooter
Yes! I bought a brand new 1961 Harley Davidson "Topper H" motorscooter from Columbia Motorcycle Company in Vancouver, Washington in that year. I rode the bike through my Senior year of Highschool and personally maintained the machine in excellent running condition. Specifications as far as I can recall are as follows:

165CC loop-scavanged two-stroke horizontal single cylinder engine. Maximum power 9 H.P. for the "H" model and approximately 6 H.P. for the AU model. Weight: 244 LBS Top speed ("H" model) 60 MPH (observed) fuel milage approximately 45 MPG. Engine used a premix oil & gasoline with the tank located beneath the upholstered plywood & foam seat which had an integral air intake through a chromed "grill" at the back of the machine. Main frame as a single large diameter steel Tube loop that extended down from the steering head ran horizontally along the the top of the horizontally positioned cylinder of the engine and then back up to a point below the riders seat where it was joined to a welded smaller tube steel frame containing sheet metal stampings and braketry to support the  fuel tank and the Fiberglass rear body. The Front fender was designed like an airscoop which helped draw cooling air into the front of the engines cylinder and gave the Topper a rather "bold" modern look together with excellent splash protection from the large diameter front wheel. The front half of the machine including the splash guards were made of "heavy guage auto-body steel" and were extremely stout. The raised "tunnel" area between the riders legs carried a horizontal horse-shoe shaped chrome dash that carried the ignition switch, pull starter & Combination rear wheel lockout device, fuel valves for reserve & a choke lever. Transmission was an automatic "Scootaway Drive" version of the typical Salsbury variable ratio belt and pulley system using an automatic centrifugal clutch with final drive to the rear wheel through a conventional 5/8" pitch exposed drive chain and sprockets. Unlike some of the incorrect information found elsewhere on the Web, the "Topper" was fitted with both FRONT & REAR 5" diameter drum brakes  which were surprisingly adequate for a machine of that era! The front brake was controlled by a handlever on the right handlebar, and the rear brake by a conventional brake pedal on the R/H section of the floor board. Some Toppers were fitted with a serrated locking Pawl for the front brake lever to act as a parking brake. Toppers came with only one "tool" a long reach plug wrench for accessing the spark plug which was directly behind the front wheel. Suspension consisted of a leading link front suspension much like an Earles Fork design controled by sproings and a hydraulic shock assembly. Rear suspension was controlled by a pressed steel stamped swingarm and horizontal spring set-up with a hydraulic shock as well (this similar  design set-up was used by the later Harley Davidson Softails only with a much beefier swingarm & shock assemblies. Electrical power was provided by a flywheel magneto driving six-volt headlight, tail light, speedometer light and horn.  No battery or electric starting was fitted or needed. A conventional "lawn mower" pull starter was fitted and if properly choked, the bike would start on only a couple pulls when cold; more when warm! If any additional info is required or for informationon  early 60's  Harley Sportsters(which I also owned) feel free to contact me.

N.L.Dunnavan
 * Umm... thank you for the extended reminiscence. Is any of this documented anywhere so that we can include it in the Topper article as sourced information? Respectfully, SamBlob 13:20, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Harley-Davidson owned Aermacchi in the 70s so they were italian made 2-stroke Harleys and even a GP team racing 2-stroke twins. Even this were not real all-American Harley-Davidson the article should be revised IMO.

Ericd

Why did Davidson have a garage in 1903? Did he own a car? Was he an auto mechanic? RickK 00:03, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Improper First Paragraph?
Should the current first paragraph, with it's referring to the Harley as a 'death machine' (and the associated misspellings) possibly be excised?

Kb9tif 20:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Done Boomer 03:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply to: Why did Davidson have a garage in 1903? Did he own a car? Was he an auto mechanic? RickK 00:03, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)
The Davidson brothers originally used a friend's workshop to work in. Since the business was taking off, the father of the Davidson brothers built a modest workshop in his backyard in 1903. 

his modest workshop was in fact a woodshed.

Sturgis
Since when is the Sturgis rally a "Harley event"? I don't see anything about the company's level of involvement on the Sturgis rally's official website. Are Harley-Davidsons the most popular motorcycle there? Maybe a rewording is in order.
 * Agreed. Will rewrite it, and also add a new section for the actual Sturgis event. Harley in no way is officially involved with the Sturgis rally. --Mceder 15:18, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits/reverts
Hey, FYI - a few significant edits (mostly reverts from changes that are at least a few weeks old) were executed at my request by a friend of mine (logged as '70.229.91.36') after I noticed a few 'facts' that didn't sit right with my recollection. As *I* don't have his reference material, I can only vouch for his personal qualifications - he was a service manager at Illinois Harley-Davidson for over 8 years and is one of the founders of ServiceSheet.com. If there's anything in those edits that anyone has specific questions about, I can certainly ask him what his references were. --boinger 15:11, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

External link removal
With URL de-linked, so as not to assist with the link farm:

boinger 15:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

1983 sportster roadster
I have a friend buying a shovelhead. The owner stated it is a 1983 sportster roadster with a stock lowrider frame and small bob tank. The VIN indicates it is a 1977 sporster. I have not heard of what he has told us what it is. Any ideas?


 * I think you're missing the point of this Talk area.boinger 15:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Try asking at http://sportster.org/ mail list.

Wille G. Davidson middle name
Does anyone know the middle name of Willie G. Davidson?

GODFREY. Serious. :) I need the answer to this for a scavenger hunt. How sure are you that the middle name is Godfrey?? Thanks Patty  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Pattygluck (talk • contribs).

RE: 1983 sportster roadster
The Sportster was a Shovelhead as many people improperly refer to it as. From 1957 to 1985 the Sportster had what is referred to as the Ironhead. It did look similar to a Shovelhead but the Shovelhead was a big-twin motor.

RE: Easy Rider bike pic on page
That bike was NOT made by Harley Davidson, but by another company who made Harley clones that later became the ill fated Indian motorcycle company (Mark II) to distinguish it from the original pre 50s Indians, or the bikes to come out later next year (a company in the UK bought the name and brand)


 * A lot of clone companies made a Captain America chopper (as the design is called) in the decades since the movie came out. The California Motorcycle Company made a Peter Fonda endorsed Captain America chopper for a number of years.  CMC is the core of what became the modern Indian.  The original Captain America was almost certainly a chopped Harley. &mdash;BozoTheScary 17:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Detractors contend...
From the article at present:
 * Detractors contend that Harleys are badly engineered, under-powered and under-performing, and have poor handling and suspension. This is attributed to an American pedigree that favors designs for long, low-speed cruising on flat, straight roads.


 * This worries me. It may well be true that detractors say this, that or the other. I could for instance say that Harleys are made of melted down baked bean tins and that would make me a detractor and my claim therefore the contention of a detractor.  But do we have any documentation for the claims about bad engineering, under-performance, etc? Or was it just something some random guy came in and said one day, which got converted into a "detractors contend" statement?  --Tony Sidaway 02:26, 6 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I strongly agree so I've removed that sentence until someone can prove the statement - Adrian Pingstone 18:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Is there a V-Rod article on wikipedia?
I know it is a little off-topic but this is the most popular Harley model for the world outside U.S. and I can't seem to find an article on it here.

--Unitedroad

In sales terms, number of owners, and years of production, the most popular HD is the Sportster. Anyways, a V-Rod only article sounds like a good idea.

Harley's V-twin engine
The classic Harley-Davidson engines are two-cylinder, V-twin engines with the pistons placed at a 45 degree angle. The crankshaft has a single pin, and both pistons are connected to this pin through their connecting rods. This design causes the pistons to fire at uneven intervals. So, that's why a Harley sounds choppy. Gm1121983 12:20, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * "This design, ..., gives the Harley-Davidson V-twin its unique "potato-potato" sound."

But the V-twin article tells us that Indians were a couple of degrees under 45 and Vincent a couple over. So is it really a unique sound.GraemeLeggett 13:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd say that it is a unique sound, as seeing that the sportsbikes such as the Yamahas, Suzukis, Hondas, and Kawasakis have a smooooooth sound. Gm1121983 23:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not following you. what does a superbike with an in-line 4 engine have to do with a V-twin cruiser?Rsm99833 03:12, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so maybe that comparison was unnecessary. Gm1121983 12:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * But they do sound different. The Harleys are just too loud. Every time I hear one, I lose my lunch. &mdash;Mr. Conrad 12:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Only modified Harleys are loud. With the stock exhaust, they are little, if any, louder than a Yamaha V-twin cruiser.  The convention, however, is to immediately replace the stock pipes with loud ones or to remove some (or all) of the baffling from the stock pipes.  "Loud pipes save lives!" doesn't refer to the stock exhaust.  &mdash;BozoTheScary 20:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Modification of exhausts is not allowed in all countries either. GraemeLeggett 09:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the sound of a Vincent Rapide engine running. I haven't found another V-twin yet. GraemeLeggett 12:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Most of the Harleys in Pennsylvania are really loud. &mdash;Bill Conrad 16:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that Mr. Conrad has listened to most of the Harleys in Pennsylvania. Please define loud?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.2.168.169 (talk) 17:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Help for a newbie adding the "model families" section
So I'm an XML guy; I don't know Wiki markup at all. Sorry. I tried to make a link to the article on "Chopper (motorcycle)" in my new section on model families, but it didn't work. I have no idea why; the article entitled "Chopper (motorcycle)" does indeed exist. I followed the syntax used earlier in the article, and while the example I followed works, mine does not. Little help for the newguy? (I'll check back later to see whether/how it's been fixed.) - unsigned by 151.190.254.108

Engines
There is an excellent engine table available that can be seen on the Evolution engine page. It is a bit large to put at the end of the engine section of this page. Should the engine section be branched into it's own article? –BozoTheScary 22:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Random reference
In the opening paragraph there is this statement:

"A well kept Harley might decline very little in value, although regular maintenance is required" said Jason Crane from Alabama.

I did a search for Jason Crane to determine if he was affiliated with Harley-Davidson, Cycletrader, or any other profession where Mr. Crane would be a reliable source for this information. As far as I can tell, this is a very random reference. Although this is probably a true statement, until we find a strong reference, we should consider removing this statement. Tanthalas39 20:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

FXR
Unless HD has announced that there will be no more FXR editions, I don't think that the FXR should be removed from the "Model families" section until eight years or so pass from the last FXR release. –BozoTheScary 02:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Why's that? I think it's a valuable resource to have current models differentiated from models no longer in production, and don't see anything wrong with updating the article later as the model lineup changes. I also think that if the FXR model is re-introduced, there should be a lot more details than what was previously there! Most notably, how does it differ from existing model lines (especially the Dyna models)? In fact, if you know anything about the FXR, that would be valuable to put in the history section right now. OldMan 14:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Good point. It's not like this is going to print any minute now.  Thanks.
 * I don't know much about the FXR other than that my father has a '93 FXR Lowrider that he has a hell of a time finding heat shields for. –BozoTheScary 17:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

XR750 link
An anonymous user keeps adding this URL to the link section: http://users.adelphia.net/~infoage1/xr750.html

If anyone sees a reason to retain this link, which is just a picture and some lackluster other links, please discuss here. Otherwise, I will keep reverting to previous revision. Tanthalas39 00:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Henry Melk
See site http://www.atthecreation.com/speeches.etc/talk.mchs.html for reference that Henry Melk, a neighbor of the Harleys, lived on the northside of Milwaukee. I reverted the change; please discuss here if you disagree. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tanthalas39 (talk • contribs) 08:24, 13 December 2006 (UTC).

Harley Rider User Box
Some editors to this article may also be riders of HD's - and you might be interested that there is a user box as follows available for your user page ... -- VS talk...images 12:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

When did AMF Harley-Davidson cease innovation?
From the section Tarnished Reputation, which deals with the AMF years:

The company also ceased to be an innovator in the motorcycle industry, with a design that remained basically unchanged for many years.

There are a lot of things the AMF regime can be blamed for, but lack of innovation is not among them.

AMF merged with H-D in 1969.

The FX Super Glide factory custom was released in 1971. It was followed by the highly successful FXS Low Rider in 1977.

The revolutionalry FLT Tour Glide was introduced in 1978, three years before the '81 Honda GoldWing Interstate. The design of the FLT chassis was completely outside the box. The Electra Glide was eventually moved to the FLT chassis so that the customers could have the classic Electra Glide look and the improved Tour Glide ride.

The basic engineering of the Evo engine had already started when Harley's management bought the company back from AMF in 1981.

Blame AMF for the downturn in product quality if you will (although I don't know if AMF's quality was any worse than that of Detroit's Big Three auto manufacturers at the same time...), but the "lack of innovation" charge seems groundless to me.

Respectfully, SamBlob 23:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The sentence has annoyed me for too long and no-one has defended it. I have deleted it. Respectfully, SamBlob 23:33, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Aermacchi Harley's?
"Harley-Davidson owned Aermacchi in the 70s ..." (from Talk, section 2, "Topper scooter"). Shouldn't this be included in the Harley article pertaining to the 1970's. The Aermacchi four-stroke single-cylinder motorcycles were badged as "Harley-Davidson" bikes.--TGC55 15:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, the Topper scooter was not based on the Aermacchi line. The 165 cc 2-stroke engine used in the Topper was more likely to have been based on the DKW RT125-based two-stroke bikes that were built by H-D from 1949 to 1965.  They are generically known as Hummers although Hummer was a model name for one of the later versions from the early '60s after they increased the displacement from 125 cc to 165 cc. Respectfully, SamBlob 23:17, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Single-cylinder Harleys and the state of the Timeline
Some mention needs to be made in the article about the single-cylinder motorcycles made by Harley-Davidson, and not just the Aermacchis, either. The original Silent Grey Fellow, the Peashooters of the '20s and early '30s, the DKW RT125 clones and developments made from 1949 to 1965, and the four-stroke and two-stroke Aermacchis sold as Harleys until the mid-70s need to be addressed.

Also, if the engine timeline given in the article is to be believed, Harley-Davidson did not make any engines between 1910 to 1914. That matter also needs to be addressed.

Respectfully, SamBlob 23:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Ignition
"the plugs were made to fire individually as follows" Sorry, no they weren't.  To this day, stock H-Ds use a SINGLE-FIRE coil, which means both plugs fire at the same time. There's just no fuel-air in the off cylinder at the time of firing. This should read 'cylinder' instead of 'plug' and it would then be correct. -- Tom Shirk (I'm at work so my IP is irrelevant, sorry!)

Sorry, Tom, Your statement is also incorrect. All EFI model Harleys have single fire ignitions, with two coils in one unit. As all new Harleys now have EFI, the correct statement is "All new Harley Davidson cycles have single fire ignitions." Please see these links, from one of many sources available, for further information. Please note the writer of these articles is a highly respected and long time contributor to a major magazine about Harley Davidson cycles.

http://www.heavydutycycles.com/ignpt1.htm

http://www.heavydutycycles.com/ignpt2.htm

Fair use rationale for Image:Harley Davidson logo.jpg
Image:Harley Davidson logo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:56, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Replaced with image from http://brandsoftheworld.com —BozoTheScary 14:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

VRSC Model Designation chatter
Will someone please edit or remove that long soliloquy from the VRSC section of "Model designations"? The style is highly informal and not suitable for an encyclopedia. Respectfully, SamBlob 18:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Never mind; have done. 72.27.77.169 15:41, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

what does "domestic" mean?
During the heyday of the British empire, the world was divided by the Brits into "home" and "foreign" or "world". In the first paragraph of this article, I notice the sentence: "The Motor Company supplies many domestic police forces with their motorcycle fleets." Since this is an international encyclopedia, I'm not sure what "domestic" might mean. It is not "domestic" if your domicile is not the United States. It echoes "home" in the context of the British empire. Which is to say that there is an assumption that home (domus...) is America. I do appreciate that HD is an American company, but it still seems like an eccentric and Amerocentric use of language to me. And I live in FL, so what impression must others around the globe get?

Duracell 05:14, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have changed "domestic" to American. This should partly resolve the matter, except for those non-American police forces that use Harleys as police bikes. Respectfully, SamBlob 15:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I was thinking that "domestic" could also refer to "civil" police force (as opposed to "military" police force), because Harley provides police motorcycles throughout the world, e.g., Image:PolizeiHarley.JPG. Of course, they have a history of providing motorcycles for military use also. --Evb-wiki 16:13, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that the change is okay, but I don't agree that "domestic" in this context is unclear or UScentric. Harleys are American bikes, and clearly indicated to be such in the article, and from that standpoint, "domestic police forces" works. If Ducati made bikes for Italian police forces (use your imagination here), I would understand clearly the usage of "domestic" in that context. 155.188.183.7 20:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)Surfbruddah

Nightster notability
The last two sentences in the Sportster subsection were devoted to the XL1200N Nightster model introduced in 2007. I have removed them, as there is no indication as to why this particular model is any more significant to the subject of the article (Harley-Davidson in general) than any other regular model of Sportster. Respectfully, SamBlob 21:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

350 ccm military Enduro?
During the last year, the US or British military in Germany sold off dozens or even hundreds of 350 ccm one-cylinder Enduro bikes, most of them in very worn condition. Obviously they are being replaced. Does anyone know anything about these bikes? Are they unique Harleys, or are they rebranded? Have they been on sale for civilian use? -- 790 08:57, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

That's one of these things... -- 790 22:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)