Talk:Harmon Killebrew/Archive 1

Birth place
Harmon Killebrew was born in Payette IDAHO....NOT INDIANA


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Twins announcer
Wasn't he a Twins announcer for some time after his career ended? I seem to recall he did so. If so, that needs to be added to the article. DandyDan2007 22:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Found List of Minnesota Twins broadcasters. Will add to article. DandyDan2007 00:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 15:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

something should be added...
about how Killebrew had to wait for Yost to be traded before he could start everyday. I don't know the entire story. Kingturtle 19:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

WP Baseball Collaboration
There is poetential to make this an FA, but I think we should just concentrate on the GA first. Other GA baseball articles can be found here.

In order to fulfil tasks more efficiently and effectively it is recommended that members collaborate in groups of two or three and focus on one area of the article. I have created a general to-do list at the top of this page, please expand it where you see fit. You may list any sections that you have intrest in writing below. This is our fist WP Baseball AID, let's make it a good one!  Black  ngold29   05:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Colaborations
 * I'll check out Flickr to see about finding a more suitable image. I think it would help if someone broke the article up into sections (try to base it on another GA about a HOFer) so people have a bit of a framework to build on.  leafschik1967 (talk) 16:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't say that I know much about Mr. Killebrew, so I'll probably do more copy-editing and stuff like that, then writing; but I'll help where I can. As Leafschik said, we need to divide the article into sections; I'd say something general to start off with like: Early life, Early career, Later career (it's long enough to split into atleast two sections), Personal life/Retirement/HOF induction. So basically what's already there... The Career Notes needs merged into the Career section, it's basically a Trivia section.  Black  ngold29   18:51, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe I've gone rogue but I'm kinda just getting in there and pouring in whatever info I can find. I generally get crazy when I create/expand articles and then let everyone else rearrange if they want.  —Wknight94 (talk) 19:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds fine to me, go nuts! I'd be glad to but it in order.  Black  ngold29   19:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Stats
 * I'll volunteer to type out his season by season stats, like The Bambino. It seems to be the standard for FA articles, so might as well do it correctly now.  Black  ngold29   21:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've never been a fan of this personally (my fa doesn't have them, nor my ga), but if there's consensus to do that I won't stop you. Wizardman  23:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

We should stay away from season-by-season stats. A single line summarizing their career is sufficient. You can link to mlb.com and baseball-reference.com and let the figger filberts knock themselves out with all the nifty data there. If you put in year-by-year, not only are you being repititious, you're also running the risk of making a mistake. It's not worth the bother. And there has been other discussion opposing it in general. One line for the career is generally enough. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 23:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I see...well, since I already typed it all out, if everyone wants it removed I won't stand in their way. But then again, it's already done so is leaving it in making the article worse?  Black  ngold29   04:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I just don't understand the need for it. You're restating a bunch of numbers that are already in the links. And did you in fact type it by hand instead of copying-and-pasting? If so, there's a risk of mistakes. I'm not overly hung up on this matter either way, I'm just giving you my opinion. Others need to weigh in here. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I have experience in typing out stats before, but that obviously doesn't mean they're perfect everytime. I've never done a ball player's article before, so I will defer to the more experienced users when it comes to stats. Before I typed them out, there were his career totals and MLB rankings, I personally didn't like the rankings, because they're obviously changing constatnly and we would have to keep them updated; but once again, I defer to people with experience. Thoughts on that?  Black  ngold29   04:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I would at least like to hear what Wknight94 has to say about it, since he's been doing some work on this page. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I rarely see a need to reproduce an entire Baseball-Reference-style table of stats. It becomes a WP:INDISCRIMINATE violation.  Who cares what Killebrew's on-base-percentage was?  Or how many runs he scored?  The infobox numbers should suffice.  I also agree with Blackngold29 about the rankings.  Tied for 417th in doubles?!  That's even more WP:INDISCRIMINATE.  His home run ranking would be the only possible exception IMHO, but even then, I would probably add a prose-style note that he ranked 5th (or whatever) in home runs when he retired.  That will always be true and won't have to be updated.  If someone was more adamant about his current HR ranking, I wouldn't argue against that.  He's passed so rarely in that statistic that it wouldn't be annoying to see it changed.  But anything else - even 34th in RBIs - would be silly to try to keep up to date IMHO.  —Wknight94 (talk) 11:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * So this is what we want?  Black  ngold29   16:47, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

That's the kind of thing I'm getting at. Meanwhile, the three traditional stats (HR, RBI, AVG) are already in the infobox. So it becomes a question of whether the expanded career stats are needed. I think it's reasonable to include them. If more detail is needed, the user can go to baseball-reference.com or one of the other figger filberts' nirvanas. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Cool, done. Is there any specific areas that I could work on? It's coming along pretty well, but there are still a good deal of short choppy paragraphs.  Black  ngold29   17:15, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You can always re-word things to fix the choppiness. I'm tentatively planning on redoing the whole article to varying degrees anyway (like I did eons ago with Lee Smith (baseball)) but I can't guarantee when I'll have time.  I could get hit by a bus at any moment!  :)  —Wknight94 (talk) 17:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That's the risk of trying to edit wikipedia from your Blackberry on a public street. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone else see this section as "Trivia" in disguise? They're all interesting (probably more so to baseball fans), but are they really notable? I think that they should either be merged into the career prose, or eliminated. Also, if any are kept, they will need cited as none currently are.  Black  ngold29   17:55, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Career Notes section
 * Agreed that they should be merged into the content. Also agreed they need to be sourced.  Slap a fact tag on when you merge them in, k?  As for notability, I haven't evaluated each of them.  —Wknight94 (talk) 18:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think a separate section on "Tape Measure Home Runs" could be set up, which includes the one marked at the MOA. Most of the other stuff could be merged into the text. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:17, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I have a Sporting News from 1999 that names Killebrew the 69th best ballplayer of all time. Would that be worth adding?  Black  ngold29   03:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Rank worth adding?
 * They have those rankings for various other players, I think. Check Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb, for example. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 10:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That'd be a good stat to throw in. The Sporting News list of Baseball's Greatest Players seems to be good. Wizardman  11:57, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellent. These are the elite, the "true" Hall of Famers. Note, for example, the absence of Chick Hafey from the list. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 12:16, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I think we have enough length now for a GA, we just need to refine the prose and find citations for the lacking statements. Thoughts?  Black  ngold29   00:58, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * GA cleanup?
 * Well, I'm having a grand time piling in content and just found another nice book source, but don't wait for me. It definitely needs a thorough scan to re-evaluate the organization.  It's definitely messy and I probably haven't helped much in that regard...  —Wknight94 (talk) 03:48, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that if the last few citation issues could be taken care of we could nom this for a GA. The article has already surpassed my expectations. What do ya say?  Black  ngold29   05:52, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Final charge
 * I think we're good for the nom. Comments?  Black  ngold29   22:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I've about exhausted what I can (or will) do. I found a couple more interesting sources I may make use of but probably not too much.  If folks have proofread or signed off (or whatever) my latest additions, then go ahead with the GA nom.  Anyone have suggestions to push for FA instead?  I'm not real familiar with either process so I wouldn't know.  I suppose lack of quality images of Mr. Killebrew himself would be a fatal flaw but if anyone lives around him and can convince him to give a picture, that might be the last piece to the puzzle (as it was for Lee Smith).  —Wknight94 (talk) 21:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The gap between GA and FA isn't too bad so long as you know what they want. Go ahead and nom for GA, shouldn't be a problem. I'll look over the article and see what I can tweak/add in. Wizardman  21:58, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Y'all better start checking more closely. Someone's dyslexia kicked in and misread Charlotte to be Chattanooga as HK's home base in 1956!  If I hadn't beared down and looked through this last source of mine, I would've never noticed.  —Wknight94 (talk) 02:35, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Tiger Stadium (Detroit)
Google indicates a conflict on when it was that Harmon hammered one onto and over the left field roof at Detroit. Some sources say May 2, 1964. That is incorrect, and may be someone misreading a reference to the Detroit homer followed immediately by that date. The Tigers were on the road on that date and the Twins were at Kansas City. That was an extraordinary day too, as Oliva, Allison, Hall and Killebrew hit four straight homers in the top of the 11th to bury the A's. Several sources say August 3, 1962, off Jim Bunning. That appears to be the correct date. I'm trying to track down better sources than what I'm seeing on the internet. There's no question he hit it, just trying to be sure of the date. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 03:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The book The Corner, published by the Free Press in 1999, states the August 3, 1962, date in its timeline. The book also has a list of rooftop shots. Only 4 were hit to left. Over 30 were hit to right. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 03:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * How about this book and this book and this book? They all give August 3, 1962.  Here's another mention - but no date.  Related book here about HK hitting the longest HR in Memorial Stadium (Baltimore).  In general, looks like there are several books listed here.  —Wknight94 (talk) 11:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll have to look through my old Street & Smith Baseball Yearbooks. They used to have a pictorial section on "Tape Measure Homers", which tended to be dominated by Mantle, Stargell, Howard and Killebrew.


 * My home PC doesn't like however it is that Google books works. In any case, other sources also say that on May 24, 1964, Harmon hit the longest HR at Baltimore Memorial Stadium, 471 feet to deep left center. Incredibly, it didn't leave the park. The only one who hit it clear out, as far as I know, was F.Robby in 1966, but that was pulled more. Any objections to adding the Baltimore shot to his list of tape-measure homers in the article? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:31, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * According to an older edition of Take Me Out to the Ballpark, Robby's shot was about 450 on the fly. They don't even mention the Killebrew hit. In fact, that one is hard to track down. I guess because it didn't go out, any attention it got was later overwhelmed by Robby's shot. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:41, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No objection here. Try creating a Google account - I find it changes what is available at Google Books.  —Wknight94 (talk) 17:20, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not that, it's just that my home PC won't display it properly. My work PC does, I think. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, I never noticed what technology they use to power that feature... —Wknight94 (talk) 18:17, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Take Me Out to the Ballpark (2000 edition) states Killebrew hit a home-run that cleared the left field roof at Tiger Stadium. He was one of four players to do so. It says nothing about the distance though.  Black  ngold29   17:28, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There are several sources confirming the Detroit shot. Distance is probably hard to figure since it didn't clear the roof on the fly. And Babe Ruth's center field home run in the early 1920s, before the double deck was built, topped them all at the ballpark, at about 575 feet on the fly. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Contract?
Does anyone have a breakdown on HK's initial contract? It says $50K now but I've read $4K with a bunch of bonuses and I've read $30K with an additional $10K for the first two years. Hard to get a straight answer on this one and I don't have access to the New York Times article which is currently cited. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:32, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I used google news to check, and on here, it's got two papers saying 50k, i don't see any other ones that state it. Wizardman  11:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If there's a biography of Harmon, that might cover it. I'm not sure there is, though. No scandals. What can you write about a guy whose hobby was washing dishes? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 12:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Retrosheet vs. others
Killebrew is an interesting case in that he is a big enough name to have a lot written about him, but is recent enough that exhaustive statistics at a game-by-game level are available at (my favorite web site) Retrosheet.org. I've just cracked into his first big month, May 1959, and already found a discrepancy. Porter, p. 808 says he hit 8 HRs in 12 days in early 1959 but Retrosheet says he hit 9 HRs from May 1 through May 12. I split the difference and said he had four multi-HR games from May 1-12 (actually I factored in a 5th multi-HR game on May 17) but I'm more likely to go with Retrosheet in the future. Thoughts? —Wknight94 (talk) 14:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Baseball Almanac only has box scores for certain years, and 1959 is one of them. Maybe retrosheet is their source, I don't know. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've found most of Baseball Almanac's data to be derivative. Seasonal stats are often driven by http://www.baseball-databank.org/ (maintained by the same Sean Forman that runs Baseball-Reference) and play-by-play data is usually driven by Retrosheet.  —Wknight94 (talk) 15:17, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Mormon
Killebrew being Mormon is well-known. I'm not sure exactly what "fact" the guy was tagging. That he was a convert while his wife was life-long? Maybe someone with the paper biography could answer that? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 00:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It was his religion. I'm not disputing it, just saying that if you are going to make religion a part of the lead, it should have a citation.  I personally didn't know he was a Mormon before reading that line, so I am not sure if it is common enough knowledge not to need a reference. leafschik1967 (talk) 14:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I just found a partial reference here so it appears to be verifiable. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:27, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course, if we get really desperate, we can look at the LDS Church website, where there are various references. Here's an example: Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 14:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's another one, that actually states explicitly that Harmon's a Mormon, as opposed to having to infer it from the previous item. Look for the section "The LDS Scene". It refers to an article in Family Weekly. That's a Sunday newspaper magazine, or used to be.  Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 14:43, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Note
If you are going to replace the 'recent' fact tag items - why not just find a citation? And in the same vein, why revert an entire edit consisting mainly of copy editing to do so? leafschik1967 (talk) 17:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * To prevent that, you may want to break up your edits a bit. I almost reverted you too but, at the last second, saw that you had moved the content elsewhere and not removed it.  It was hard to tell given the number of unrelated changes in the one diff.  —Wknight94 (talk) 17:12, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The reason I reverted was it looked to me like the cn stuff had been clobbered. If they are still there, that's fine, but I have other projects besides this one. If a few months pass, that might be different. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:16, 8 July 2008 (UTC)