Talk:Haro Strait

Pilot or Captain?
I just edited Gonzalo López de Haro and San Juan Islands with name origin info, calling Haro a "captain" under the command of Francisco de Eliza. I got this info from the book Washington State Place Names, by James W. Phillips (refs on those pages). Looking more closely at the book, it seems to refer to Haro as a "master", but also says he was the first to discover San Juan Island, which I took as meaning he was a ship captain. Anyway, I will fix my "captain" edits, but I wonder if the info on this page, about him being a "pilot" and Haro Strait being named by Quimper, could be referenced? Thanks. Pfly 19:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I solved this a while ago myself -- "pilot" and "captain" are ranks. Haro was ranked "pilot" in the Spanish Navy, but he sometimes captained a ship during the Eliza expedition. Pfly (talk) 22:27, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

vessel Haro Straits
This was a famous tug....or barge?...or fishboat? in BC.....I think it's the one on the $5 bill, or used to be; Haro Straits (vessel) or something like that needs to be written; "heritage/historic" value.Skookum1 (talk) 19:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC) I have first hand information concerning the tug Haro Straits.I was employed in the coastal towing industry for 40 years.Ending that career as a captain.I started in 1974 as a deckhand and like so many others ,worked my way up sailing as deckhand,mate,engineer and finally for the last 28 years as captain.The Haro Straits was a coastal tug built in 1963 of 71 gross tons.about 65 feet loa and probably about 5oo to 600 HP.She sank near Point Roberts in a violent storm February 26, 1972.at the time towing two empty wood chip barges north bound from the USA and bound for Vancouver,BC.She was salvaged and the investigation revealed all four blades on her propeller were bent causing catastrophic failure of the engine and was dragged by the barges and subsequently foundered.All 5 hands were lost.The tug was sold as a stripped out hull with wheelhouse and languished up river near mission for many years and finally in Steveston for about 5 or six years when a company I was sailing with,Mariner Towing,got the job of towing her to A shipyard in Esquimalt where she was converted to a stern dragger.This about 1985.the vessel on the Five dollar bill is a seiner.I think it was owned by a First Nations skipper from Quadra Island,BC.She was named BCP45 and was built for BC Packers.Now restored and on display in Campbell River at the Heritage centre. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:569:72B1:2B00:394C:836B:DFE7:4337 (talk) 04:00, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Assnich
That's so good I'm going to have to send it into Monday (Victoria's Georgia Straight equiv). A snitch, ass snitch, read it as you want. And yeah, must be a typo. Can you give me the link/cite for that?Skookum1 (talk) 23:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hehe.. yes, the cite is there in the footnote that didn't show up til just now: . Unsure, I googled "Assnich Peninsula" and got no hits and the question Did you mean: "Saanich Peninsula". Very silly. Pfly (talk) 23:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Excellent map
One tweak - add at least Rosario Strait, if not in colour then by name, and probably the names on Saltspring and Mayne. I'm gonna go look at Basemap about that northward bulge on your Haro Strait blue area; those all have individual channel names I think, I'll see; don't forget Canadian definitions may differ from USGS ones, also, though I don't know if these are detailed-out in GeoNames or BCGNIS in the same way. The same map, maybe plus Point Roberts/Boundary Bay, and showing both main boundary lines, maybe two of the minor ones, would be great illustration for the Pig War and an improvement on what's there now. This is pretty nifty. Do you think you could cook one up for the Broughton Archipelago and the Discovery Islands, or does your database not go up there? BTW re the inline comment, the treaty said the deepest channel out; when hydrography got far advanced that turned out to be Active Pass; the Emperor didn't decide on that basis anyway; San Juan Island itself was the crux of the argument, all British proposals tried to keep it, though one US counter-proposal tried to take Saturna and Pender, or Mayne too maybe....~ Counterproposal, all a card game/ bluff like the reach-far-beyond-what's-reasonable grandstanding on the oregon boundary disputee....worked both times too.Skookum1 (talk) 01:22, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll add Rosario, Saltspring, and Mayne. I almost added the two island names but didn't out of concern of text clutter. The northward bulge is from the USGS definition, Portland Island being the northernmost island of that bulge. But yes, there are other names for the various... sub-straits? "Prevost Passage", for example, between Moresby Island and a cluster of little islands just to the south. Plus there's Sidney Island, James Island, and D'Arcy Island in Haro Strait, with names like Sidney Channel, Hughes Passage, Cordova Channel, etc, in and amongst them. There's quite a scattering of tiny islands in the strait as well. I'm sure there are various ways to define Haro Strait. Perhaps a narrower definition would have Sidney Island as a westward limit. Then again, Boundary Pass seems to often to included as part of Haro Strait, making for a broader definition. In any case, The USGS definition is the only one I've seen that is precise enough to map with hard edges like this. Let me know if you find others. Nautical charts and topo maps don't usually give precise definitions, especially when waterbodies can be subsets of other waterbodies -- for example, the southern basin of Puget Sound, south of the Tacoma Narrows, is a patchwork of names like Nisqually Reach, Case Inlet, Carr Inlet, Dana Passage, etc, but all of these are considered parts of Puget Sound. A Canadian example might be English Bay being part of Burrard Inlet (isn't it?). In this sense I figure the USGS would consider Sidney Channel to be part of Haro Strait.


 * I'll try to cook up something for the Pig War stuff. I'm not sure what you mean about the Discovery Islands -- I've been adding maps for the main islands, plus one for Discovery Passage. I'd like to make others for Desolation Sound, Toba Inlet, Bute Inlet, Sutil Channel, and Cordero Channel. What else? I've eyed the Broughton Archipelago, but am a bit imtimidated. My coastline data goes all the way to Alaska (technically the Digital Chart of the World is global, but I've only shoved parts of it into ArcGIS). As a map reference in Canada I've been using the British Columbia Base Map Online Store you pointed me to. The high-resolution 1:20,000 scale topo maps are free, pretty easy to download, and amazingly detailed. Thanks for pointing me that way! Pfly (talk) 05:14, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Sinking of the Haro Straits (tugboat)
I used "fishboat" there because I think t here's yet a major/famous barge of the same name....anyway, did find something, though not a news article; the owner of the one site would proably agree to pd-ify one of his images. The one is from teh provincial hansard from Monday Feb 12, 1973 - here and you have to search "Haro" to find the passage:
 * ''The last part of this grant is to go towards the building of a thermal electric plant to run on wood waste from the beaches. Just last week we read in the paper where the Haro Straits went down after having hit a submerged log. There were a number of deaths, but those are by no means the only deaths we have had in British Columbia waters that are attributable to deadheads. I think it can be proved that the greatest hazard to being on the waters in British Columbia is not rough seas but submerged wood and deadheads. That's the prime cause of death.

The windbag whose speech (very long speech) that occurs in the middle of is Pat McGeer, a brilliant but oh-so-eccentric research scientist from UBC who wound up in cabinet with car dealers and real estate flim flam men....he's taking on Dave Stupich, Minister of Agriculture under Dave Barrett; fun times in the House, let me assure you (right-wing nutbars squaring off with diehard commies....very entertaining...)....McGeer is one of the long-standing proponents of the Georgia Strait Bridge idea, and at one time sold plans (which worked) for how to make a satellite dish out of two big pieces of plywood using a jigsaw...anyway before I get into a political bio on the McGeer family (see Gerry McGeer)...suffice to say that if Pat were alive (or not senile, if he's still alive) he'd be against Global Warming...either that or promoting it asa good thing..., here's the other link - once again, search for "Haro" on the page - and its text:
 * ''"Haro Straits" sunk off Point Roberts with loss of all hands.. Shown here moored in Mission, B.C.  She has since been rebuilt for service as a fish packer.

Knew it had something to do with fish....I remember the sinking though (I was in 1st year UBC then), and the issue of snags adn driftwood making the Straits unsafe; this during a period when hydrofoils were being considered for use in the area (they're useful in similar waters in Norway because there's no snags/driftwood - no forests, or waht gets cut is severely regulated). The one picture I'm going to link here because the guy's HTML is flawed (a file:/// link....) and also because it's the best shot; and I'm gonna have to go look up the old $5 bill, I think this is the boat, as t he angle of this picture reminds me....Skookum1 (talk) 16:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Tried to fix that link, no luck; I'll write teh guy and tell him so we can get a chance to see the full-size image; I'll also ask if they'll donate a picture to Wiki, hopefully of thte one in question.Skookum1 (talk) 16:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Found out that hte 1969 series, when we first got the spirograph-y modernesque designs, was of BCP 45, a British Columbia Packers vessel; I think the boat on the earlier banknote was different, just can't find an image/info....Skookum1 (talk) 17:03, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Spanish secrecy
I removed this comment in the text: "the British thought they had it sealed at Rosario, as Haro wasn't really on British/US maps in 1846 (thanks to Spanish naval secrecy); by 1859 it was, and the Americans pressed for a more advantageous boundary than was perceived possible beforehand...have to locate the passage/cite for this then will add as appropriate." Because while the Spanish did practice secrecy to some degree, they gave Vancouver maps and information about essentially all they knew in this region (Galiano gave him several maps that show and label Haro Strait). Vancouver incorporated this information into this maps and reports. The "Hayes atlas" has two of Vancouver's maps that show Haro Strait quite clearly, with the name "Canal de Arro" (presumably an English spelling of Haro). These maps were among the final ones made, included in major publications available to the world. Of course it is still possible the Americans were unaware of the strait, but I felt I should edit the comment wrt Spanish secrecy. I couldn't figure out how to edit out the first part without destroying the whole point, so I just moved it here. Pfly (talk) 05:21, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Once again, the comment that the Americans were unaware of the strait was in something online I read, old archival histories, like Bancroft (himself American) or in J.B. Kerr; I'll try and remember where it was, as I hadn't seen it before and remarked on it when I saw it; it cdould just be a polemical claim (Kerr on the one side is jingoistically British, Bancroft can be virulatnelyl anti-British, Howay tends to be equananimous and fairly deferential to Us points of view, at the same time remaining British....might have been in teh Howay;Scholefield link I'll be adding to my works/projects new section. Damn it's 4:24 am.....buddy got here, jsut put him to bed.  My turn.Skookum1 (talk) 07:24, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

One Archipelago

 * ''San Juans & Gulf Is. differ geologically, arguably not "one archipelago")

I was meaning, in my edit/emendation, that the perspective of the time, the nautical persepctive, and also the contemoprary reality in an age when the natural sciences, specifically geology, were in raw infancy and couldn't have known anything about the geological differences, otehr than observing different kidns of rock...is taht they were one archipelago; unless Vancouver distinguihsed the San Juans as an archipelago; certainly Douglas didn't until the shooting of that pig....when did the San Juan Islands as a term originate, I wonder? Point is when it was differentiated from the Gulf Islands, if it was; before or after the issue of the boundary, came to play, i.e. 1846.Skookum1 (talk) 07:21, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well that's a good point about the geological differences probably not being noted much in early times. On the other hand, I think a distinction was made early on -- the early Spanish maps show everything between Haro and Rosario Straits as one large island called Isla de San Juan, while the Gulf Islands are better shown as a real archipelago some distance away. Vancouver determined the San Juans were an archipelago not a single big island. But he had the Spanish maps and kept the Spanish name San Juan(s). It looks like the closer Gulf Islands were not so well charted for a while. The various maps give the impression that they may have been parts of the mainland, which could have contributed to the distinction between the two archipelagos. Anyway, I do agree that there is essentially one big archipelago between Juan de Fuca and Georgia Straits. Obviously the San Juan / Gulf Island distinction has become even more rigid since the international border was set down, while the distinction between the San Juans and the islands to the east of Rosario Strait (Lummi, Guemes, Cypress, etc) have become fuzzy. Its common to hear of Lummi, Guemes, etc, as being part of the San Juans these days, even if they were clearly not part of the Spanish Isla de San Juan. I figure the lack of a major political boundary down Rosario Strait has served to weaken the older distinctions, while the opposite has occurred along Haro Strait. I dunno, it seems like another sad example of arbitrary political boundaries severing regions. Around the Seattle area you constantly hear about the San Juans, and just about everyone has been there and knows quite a lot about them. But I can't recall anyone talking about the Gulf Islands, and suspect many have not even heard of them. I myself have been to the San Juans a few times, but never any of the Gulf Islands. Anyway, late here -- must be near dawn there. Night! Pfly (talk) 08:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

BCGNIS coords
Just noting the addition of GNIS/USGS coords, here are those from BCGNIS, which should be the same as in CGNDB; like many BCGNIS coords, these are rounded to the nearest minute: 48.58333°N, -123.31667°W. From .Skookum1 (talk) 14:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Just compared the sat-maps between the GNIS and BCGNIS coords....it's interesting, the GNIS/USGS coords are at the northern boundary of the strait, while the BCGNIS ones are way off, closer to Vancouver Island but approximately mid-latitude of the strait's length. That's just due to rounding, I'd imagine, but I'm surprised to find USGS/GNIS not using the centrepoint of the strait, but instead its northern limit.Skookum1 (talk) 14:59, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Heh, yea--I added the GNIS coords without checking them on a map or checking BCGNIS. Now that you mention it and I look they both seem odd. So I just changed the coords to something more in the center of the strait. Feel free to change if desired. Pfly (talk) 19:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)