Talk:Harold G. Hillam

Notability
I placed the tag for deletion on this article because I believe it is a family history article and not something for inclusion in a general encyclopedia. I suggest this be moved to another venue (Mormon biographies encyclopedia, for instance) before deletion from here. --Robbie Giles 15:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * He was general president of the LDS Church Sunday School, quite a high position in the church; and he was a member of the Presidency of the Seventy, which ranks only after the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve in church heirarchy. He's also currently a president of an LDS temple in Idaho. A definite keep; it needs source expansion. I can perhaps dig some things out. Ubi Terrarum 21:41, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

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Why are you removing the new controversies section? The content is factual and supported by references. 2A0D:6FC7:405:ED15:903:E005:9A0F:A4D (talk) 06:16, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Controversies
Numerous publicly available and reputable sources have reported on controversies surrounding Harold Hillam and his role in the Adam Paul Steed case. This information is relevant to those who want to learn about this figure and should not be removed due to personal bias in favor of protecting the LDS church. 2A0D:6FC0:DC2:5900:ED0C:DBE1:AD73:DEE1 (talk) 06:51, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * The references the IP user continues to ascribe as being publicly available and reputable address the case against the council, so an article about the council is where this information belongs. It is not accurate to allege personal bias in favor of protecting the article's subject or the LDS Church.  This appears to be a classic case of synthesis in trying to take several issues and triangulate a "forced" or desired outcome....For instance, for reference #1, it uses an article about Hillam's death to note his service as president of the council.  That is not in dispute.  In the court case cited in reference #2, Hillam is not even referred to in the court documents that accompany the link provided.  Reference #3 identifies another individual with current legal issues, nothing to do with Hillam, with #4 then being a podcast, which doesn't qualify as a reliable source, as the suit's plaintiff addresses the person from reference #3...so it's trying to patchwork a controversy that tries to place Hillam at the center, which isn't supported by the references, as the IP user says is so clearly provided. ChristensenMJ (talk) 04:55, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * You state "In the court case cited in reference #2, Hillam is not even referred to in the court documents that accompany the link provided." The claim of the sentence that contains reference 2 is a claim about the BSA.  It is NOT a claim about Hillam.  I'm sorry that you are having difficulty understanding how references work, but that is not my problem. The sources are reliable about the claims that are made in what was written. 2A0D:6FC0:2A16:1A00:EB52:911E:E524:2DB1 (talk) 17:54, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with ChristensenMJ's analysis. I also noticed that the 1st ref only described Hillam as president of the Teton Peaks council, but that council was folded into the Grand Teton council in 1994 (see Scouting in Idaho).  The abuse took place in 1997, and the court case involved the Grand Teton council.  I couldn't find anything that showed Hillam was still involved with the council in 1997.  That obviously isn't proof that he wasn't still part of it, but it does mean that, as written, the sources the IP editor provided don't support the scenario they are implying.
 * IP editor, please read WP:SYNTH to understand why other editors are objecting to your addition. If you want our article to connect Hillam to the Steed abuse case then you need a reliable, independent source to make that connection directly.  WP:NPA would be a good read too.  Attacking other editors the way you did is never going to the lead to the outcome you want. Squeakachu (talk) 21:31, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I read the links you recommended and the edits that I made absolutely conform to the standards. My statement about bias among those removing the section are certainly merely my opinion, but they seem more than warranted to me.  The complaints made by ChristensenMJ are literally, demonstrably, factually incorrect as I pointed out in my response.  The reference that I made was a reference relevant to the BSA and ChristensenMJ's complaint that it did not mention Hillam is completely irrelevant.  That you back up this unwarranted complaint speaks volumes. 2A0D:6FC0:2A57:D800:3C4E:CEF5:4B2A:D436 (talk) 14:52, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Literally every single statement in this new section is supported by reputable sources. No amount of effort by LDS defenders is going to permanently remove this section. This is relevant and important information. This section WILL stay on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A0D:6FC0:2A16:1A00:EB52:911E:E524:2DB1 (talk) 18:00, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Commenting on why I removed the controversy section. First, the reference to Hillam as the President of Grand Teton Council of Scouts BSA. The President of the Council within Scouting is a volunteer who serves on the non-profit association board that selects the Council's Chief Executive Officer and gives the council direction through approving and modifying governing documents that outline how the non-profit will operate. Similar to the Chairman of the Board of a company, but in most cases, even more tenuous as their day-to-day authority over the organization is limited. Secondly, Hillam was not named in the lawsuit as a responsible party, and I can not find a reliable source that Hillam was even the President during the time that the abuse to Mr. Steed occurred. There are good sources that he was the President of Teton Council, but not which years (generally most BSA Presidents serve 2 years - occasionally they will serve an extra year, but it is rare). There are other claims of Hillam working behind the scenes to discredit the abuse victim but I could find no collaboration from the people with whom Hillam talked, and all of it is someone told someone who told the abuse victim, and it is circumstantial.

This abuse victim has had a very rough time, running into a predator, and then a counselor that treated him has also turned out to be a crazy person, JH (recently arrested because a child in her care was emaciated and lacked proper nutrition - avoiding names for BLP reasons). My sympathy goes out to him. The person adding the information to the article (relying on the podcast), claims that certain activities (BYU Honor Code issues, claims that his Bishop wouldn't give him a calling, etc.) stopped around 2012 when Hillam died. However, it is also at the same time (2012) that JH's improper activities as a counselor (including not only the wrong actions with the abuse victim but also seeking endorsements against the policy, being denied those endorsements, and falsely claiming to work as a counselor directly for prominent church members) came out, were investigated, and she was disciplined by state regulators and removed from any list of preferred counselors at BYU and with LDS Social Services. These seem more likely to be related to the change to how the victim was treated since JH was the counselor to whom he was referred by his Bishop. Additionally, JH was the person in contact with the BYU Honor Code. I read the quoted news articles, the other sources from the section, and also several tldr; summaries of the podcast (it is 5 and 1/2 hours long) before confirming that this information is not verifiable. Adding link about therapist and statements made by the abuse victim in 2012 PS - This was a time-sapping journey down Alice's rabbit hole. --Trödel 22:11, 27 September 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry that you think your time has been wasted but I don't for even one second believe that you even remotely feel sorry for the victims in this case. I have read the links shared here about editorial standards for Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not, and is not intended to be, a court of law.  Descriptions about controversies in Wikipedia articles do NOT need to pass a legal hearing.  They are descriptions of publicly available information that is relevant to the subject of the article.  You may not like that this information is public.  You may not enjoy what the information conveys about the subject. That does not, in any way, invalidate the fact that the publicly available information does literally, in fact, in the actual world, really exist. Your removing the discussion from the Wikipedia article does not magically make it go away. 2A0D:6FC0:2A57:D800:3C4E:CEF5:4B2A:D436 (talk) 14:56, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

one of the leaders
this guy was one of the leaders of that LDS scout organization that was full of pedofiles, more than half of the kids had gotten some kind of abuse, and that Adam Steed was a whistleblower against. Then he used and abused his power to go after Steed for more than a decade in the most dire ways possible. he tried to hinder his marriage, was giving out private information about Steed to undermine his fight for his kids custody. when this didnt work properly in his eyes, he let Jodi Hildebrand, the now worldwide known LDS connected child abuser felon loose on Steed. which is turned out to be a frequen tool for him against "problematic" men in the church. This page is a joke, this person is clearly a criminal, had he not died he would have been accused of something by the court. this page need a serious tuneup. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4C4C:1152:C100:0:0:0:1000 (talk) 12:00, 31 March 2024 (UTC)