Talk:Harold and Maude/Archive 1

Sexual Relationship
The article doesn't mention their cross-generational sexual relationship which it probably ought to. This is surely another theme and was a source of controversy even years after the film was released.

Also, the Theme paragraphs need to be rewritten with correct grammar. 202.82.171.186 07:31, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

NPOV dispute.
If you are going to dispute NPOV, it would help to see an actual complaint.

The disputant seems (but I would love to hear from the horse's mouth) to be distressed by the characterization of the film as "strange". I can see the point, though there are certainly some films (say, Eraserhead) where nobody would dispute the adjective. Is just calling a film strange necessarily biased? ACW 18:52, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The two Cat Stevens songs
It would be nice to name the two Cat Stevens songs that only appeared in the film, and were not released until many years later. I remember being frustrated by these songs, since I was a big Cat Stevens fan and wanted to be able to listen to them at home.

OK, so my unreliable memory says the songs were Don't Be Afraid [see below] and If You Want To Sing Out. Can somebody confirm this (and while you're at it, you might as well put the names in the article)? Or correct me? Thanks. ACW 18:56, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * An anonymous editor changed my recollection from Don't Be Afraid to Don't Be Shy. I changed it back.  My memory is imperfect, of course, and Don't Be Shy may be the correct title.  But it's bad manners to edit somebody else's comments on a talk page; it makes it look as though I said something that I didn't say.  For the record, I still believe the song was Don't Be Afraid.  I'd be glad if the editor who changed my guess would come back and discuss the matter, rather than editing my memories :)  ACW 18:56, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

other hints for Maude's background
Sitting at the pond, one can clearly see the 6-digit number on her right arm. Alos, she mentioned that as a girl she have seen "the princes". This quite clearly indicates that she was jewish woman from Vienna surviving the concentration camps.

The additional songs (most of the movie's soundtrack is on "Catch Bull...") have appeared on CD

Correction to this comment: "The additional songs (most of the movie's soundtrack is on "Catch Bull...") have appeared on CD"

This is incorrect...most of the songs are from two much earlier albums, "Mona Bone Jakon" and "Tea for the Tillerman". "Catch Bull at Four" had been neither released nor recorded at the time this film was released.

SPOILER WARNING: Do not read this if you haven't seen the film and don't wish one of the best (both funniest and most political) portions to be disclosed! The cross-generational sexual relationship is indeed mentioned in the synopsis, though a big deal is not made out of it, doubtless as Maud and Harold would have wished. However, the anti-war episode is omitted entirely from the synopsis, in which Harold meets his uncle or some relative on his mother's side, who, despite being a decorated amputee is entirely too gung-ho (pro war). One of the most memorable episodes of the film is that in which Harold and Maud plot to prove Harold's unsuitability for the military (in front of the retired General) by having Harold appear to push Maud off a pier to drown in her very bizarre and antique women's suffragette outfit, complete with protest sign. This may be viewed as the (mock) homicidal antithesis to the (mock) suicidal aspect of Harold's personality, and was distinctly a minor theme to the movie---the horrors of war and the results are the very opposite of Maud's philosophy voiced in the garden "some people are like this (she gestures to a side of a garden in which no plants are in bloom) when they could choose to be like this (she gestures to the opposite side of the path, where the plants are all in bloom).

Image confusion
I notice someone keeps putting the theatrical release poster onto the article, in place of the actual video cover. In my opinion, in an article about the film, the video is a far better image than a theatrical release. Does anyone have an opinion otherwise? --Elonka 06:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This is your personal opinion. Guidelines state that a theatrical release poster should be used in favor of a video cover. The VHS cover would only be acceptable if a poster could not be provided - for instance, if the film was released direct to video. But this is not the case here. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 11:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC))
 * Could you please provide a link to these guidelines? --Elonka 17:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Here ya go: WP: Films Guidelines. -- Grandpafootsoldier (talk) 01:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Daisy/Cemetery Scene Summary
I was just wondering what exactly the point is behind it and if it's really necessary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.201.29.226 (talk) 04:31, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, it doesn't seem to belong here. I reckon it should be removed. Pearce.duncan (talk) 11:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Should we have a detailed description of all scenes?  No.  That scene is memorable, but so are many others.  Deleting.  --Bridgecross (talk) 19:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Peter Sellers
This film was one of Peter Sellers' favourite movies (next to The Producers). So much so that he sort out Hal Ashby to direct him in Being There. 117.102.148.232 (talk) 09:34, 19 June 2008 (UTC)Matthew B-G
 * That's nice. --Bridgecross (talk) 20:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Theater play adaptation
.. is highly popular in Russia, running essentially non-stop in some theaters. Dunno about other countries; this fact may be mentioned here. Cheers, CopperKettle (talk) 06:18, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Expectations
I would like to edit this page for my English 1100 class. Although the page is okay, I think that some small edits would make the page as good as the movie. The plot, soundtrack, and opening paragraph needs work. I would like to break the first paragraph into subcategories rather than bunching everything together. The cast also needs work. I plan to give physical descriptions of the characters and include ages and other necessities for the audience to paint a picture of the cast. Vannnnn (talk) 15:42, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey guys,

I redid the page a little bit to make it easier to read and allow the audience to have a better understanding of the film. I have NO idea how to edit the opening paragraph though. Any help?

Youth culture
In the "Themes" section of the article, it is claimed that "Hal Ashby, the director of the film, was part of the San Francisco youth culture." Ashby lived in Los Angeles throughout the 60s and 70s and so was not a part of any San Francisco culture. It is true that he shared ideals with certain streams of 60s and 70s anti-establishment ideology, but that was not necessarily tied to San Francisco. Further, Ashby was in his 40s by the time he made Harold and Maude, and had been in his 30s throughout the 60s. So, while certainly young at heart, he was not a "youth."

Vadaszaaron (talk) 21:13, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Initial Release
Something should be said about the film's initial release. While the film was a flop in most places, there were two or three cities where it was a smash hit. After the Detroit Free Press's film critic Susan Stark gave it a rave review, it played to sold-out audiences at Detroit's Studio North theater, and stayed there for over a year. (Stark may have been writing for the Detroit News, but I'm pretty sure she was at the Free Press back then.) There was another city, maybe Minneapolis, where it also was very successful, and there may have been others. I don't have a reference, but I saw it at the Studio North, then a year later I took some friends there to see it again. The success in these few locations was part of what persuaded the studio to give the movie a second nationwide release a few years later. They put real money into the ad campaign and it had a very successful second run. I don't have a reference but I'm sure somebody can come up with something. It's an interesting history and worth mentioning. —MiguelMunoz (talk) 23:07, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Debate on whether Harold is alive on the end of the film
User "67.240.82.233" periodically adds the line: "(The following has been debated, as Harold is not shown jumping out)" to the "Fake suicide" section item #8 about the car. It has been removed and re-added several times over the past month. I don't want to create an editing war and think it should be discussed until some consensus is reached.

Is there really a "debate" (and if so, where is this debate located?) on whether Harold is alive just because we are not shown him exiting the car? Or is the debate how he got out of the car? Or is the debate whether it was a suicide or not?

It seems to me that Ashby does not show Harold stop and get out of the car to make us believe that Harold was dead (like we are fooled at the beginning of the film) so it is a "surprise" to learn he is still alive. If Ashby showed Harold getting out of the car and then pushing it off, we would not be fooled into believing it could have been a suicide. It seems to me it is a "fake suicide" but not by Harold, but by the director trying to fool the viewer.

If Ashby wanted us to believe that Harold were dead and the body we see is some supernatural ghost or spirit, I think he is a good enough director to be able to do this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AbramTerger (talk • contribs) 23:23, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

User added the line again and it was removed. What is the debate and where is it located?AbramTerger (talk) 11:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Undid the same addition of unsubstantiated dataAbramTerger (talk) 00:21, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Undid twice more, and added a warning to the vandal's talk page. Persistent little bugger, isn't (s)he? MattHucke(t) 02:34, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you know what the "debate is"? I have presumed that it was a suggestion that Harold is a dead and what we see is ghost/spirit at the end (there is someone at the IMDB site who kept vandalizing that FAQ with this idea) but perhaps there is another debate. The car is a different "suicide" as it is not an attempt to fake a suicide by Harold, but an attempt by Ashby to make us think he died. In that regard it does not belong with the others even though they are all "fake suicides". I still await his/her clarification...AbramTerger (talk) 19:41, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Undid revision again. Still no clarification, comments, or support for the "debate". I don't see how it matters if we are shown him get out the car or not, just like it doesn't matter that we are not shown that the noose was a trick or that the blood was fake or that he had a breathing apparatus in the pool...AbramTerger (talk) 00:03, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I've never heard of any such debate, or any other possible interpretation - but I've only been watchlisting this article for the last month or so. I think that until Mr. 67 decides to actually talk about his theory, he's just a vandal, and should be reverted.  MattHucke(t) 00:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * My understanding of the Wiki Policies is that if it is HIS theory and not published elsewehre that it is "original research" and should not be added anyway. He needs to cite a debate or alternate theory that has been published. In any case I concur that he's just a vandal and should be revertedAbramTerger (talk) 02:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Spelling of Maude's last name
Appears to be some debate on Spelling of Maude's last name. It does not appear in the film spelled out as far as I can tell. The [ http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/h/harold-and-maude-script-screenplay.html screenplay], [ http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/h/harold-and-maude-script-transcript.html transcript], and the novel all give it spelled as "Chardin" so i recommend using this spelling unless someone can point to a spelling in the filmAbramTerger (talk) 02:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism by 67.240.82.233 - The "Ghost Harold" ending
[Note: some of this debate/discussion has been archived: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Harold_and_Maude/Archive_1#Debate_on_whether_Harold_is_alive_on_the_end_of_the_film]AbramTerger (talk) 23:48, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Can something be done about the persistent vandalism by 67.240.82.233? S/He started out raising points of some "Debate" that s/he never documented, cites, nor even discusses. Now the vandalism has turned to the "Some believe" without indicating the sources of these "some". It seems to me that 67.240.82.233 wants to put in her/his own personal idea that Harold died at the end of the film and is a ghost when nothing in the film suggests supernatural element.AbramTerger (talk) 12:32, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Undid vandalism againAbramTerger (talk) 16:36, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Undid vandalism again. Can User be banned? S/He makes no attempt to document anything or even attempts to discuss the changesAbramTerger (talk) 03:15, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Just got back from vacation twenty minutes ago - and I've requested an IP block. MattHucke(t) 03:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I got a response from 67.240.82.233 on his/her being blocked User_talk:AbramTerger and I replied User_talk:TempleclayAbramTerger (talk) 13:41, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * User:AbramTerger got this reply from User_talk:Templeclay: I sent an email to the person who blocked me and provided a quote from the book that came with the soundtrack as proof there was an alternate ending. I thought you might be interested in seeing this quote:"When I arrived in Hollywood, Hal showed me a rough screening of the film just to acquaint me with it. And at the end of it he said they had two endings. He said, 'We've got another ending where he either dies or he dances off into the sunset. Playing the banjo.' And I was very much in favor of him dancing off into the sunset, obviously. As I think most people would have been, certaintly the studio would have been. Hal had this alternative ending where when the Jaguar catapults into the sea- and by the way, you can see the camera that was set inside the car, come out through the front windscreen. You can still see it- if you watch the car, it flips over in a very flat pancake-y sort of way. It's not a spectacular car crash, it just simply goes off the cliff and lands on its roof. And you can see a little something comes sout of the car and splashed into the water- that is the camera that they mounted inside it." -Paul Samwell-Smith; page 26 Templeclay (talk) 16:21, 30 December 2009 (UTC)Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:AbramTerger"AbramTerger (talk) 16:50, 30 December 2009 (UTC)


 * As far as I can tell, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It is about an alternate (unreleased) version to the film, nothing about a debate or an alternate interpretation of the version that was released which is what you have been posting about.AbramTerger (talk) 16:50, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

It has everything to do with varying interpretations. In other quotes, it states that preview audiences wanted to see him live, not die, but it had already been filmed with him dying. Since they didn't have enough money, time, or another jaguar/hearse (with another car they could show him jumping out), they couldn't re-shoot the ending, so they added the scene of him at the top of the cliff so that one can believe he lived.

Templeclay (talk) 00:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * And this is more evidence against the "debate" and the "ghost ending". If the intent was "so that one can believe he lived" there is no suggestion that this is a "ghost Harold"AbramTerger (talk) 12:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The reason I originally posted the quote was because you said I didn't have any proof that Ashby had another ending in mind. Unfortunately, I only have internet message board/Bud Cort Fan Site forum arguments to prove that people have disagreed over the ending because of his not jumping out.

Since my proof of the debates (the IMDB links) are deemed invalid sources, I'm assuming the sentence I added will not be allowed on the Harold and Maude page. If not, then I'm asking you to please not reply any further, for I really don't wish to get into a back-and-forth situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Templeclay (talk • contribs) 00:28, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The source is valid (with a complete reference) for a remark about an alternate version of the film with a different ending (where Harold Dies). It contains nothing about a debate or an alternate interpretation of the ending we do see. You quote Paul-Samwell Smith as stating:"'We've got another ending where he either dies or he dances off into the sunset. Playing the banjo.'" It sounds to me like the version we have is the one where he lives and "dances off into the sunset" and not the one where he dies. I also see no mention of a ghost or spirit Harold, this seems to be your conflating of the 2 versions, creating a third that is not mentioned by any reliable source.AbramTerger (talk) 01:52, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

As filmed, I think it's clear that he survived. Harold has been earlier shown as being very capable of staging convincing fake suicides (the gunshot and drowning and immolation especially, I see as hard to fake). And nothing hints that he is a ghost - he does not move in a manner traditionally associated with ghosts, nor does he fade away or be revealed as translucent. I think the orthodox interpretation must prevail. However... I find your tale of the alternate ending very interesting, and propose adding a section about it (assuming suitable references can be found). MattHucke(t) 05:36, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * My only concern is that it is more "trivia" than anything else as it was never released in that form. Many films have changes made before and during filming, even with alternate scenese. I just wonder about the "significance" of an alternate ending that was abandoned. But if it is adde, I think the booklet that came with the new soundtrack album can be a source (I think that is were the quote was from). I think a quote from someone associated with the filmmaking would be more appropriate than the quote from Cat Steven's producer and Yardbird's bassist Paul Samwell Smith, but if that is the best there is... It would, of course, need a complete citation. I do not have the soundtrack album so do not have access to the booklet to find quotes and information from it or see how to cite it. Someone else would have to find the source material, do the detective work and add it.AbramTerger (talk) 12:18, 31 December 2009 (UTC)