Talk:Harold and Maude/Archive 2

Maude's last name
Sorry, I was only going by the information on IMDB. (I sent a message to IMDB to correct the information). Templeclay (talk) 02:32, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * This just demonstrates that IMDB can be unreliable[smile]AbramTerger (talk) 12:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The quote wasn't meant to reference an argument/debate regarding the ending. I sent you the IMDB links as proof of a debate, but you dismissed them as being invalid. The quote was only meant to show that a second ending was considered. And yes, they tried to make it look like Harold lived, but as I said before, they were unable to film him jumping out, which is what has caused controversy on the IMDB/Bud Cort Fan Site message boards. Also, while the quote doesn't mention a ghost/spirit Harold, I did not make it up. I first saw it mentioned by an IMDB user who thought the ending could go either way.

Templeclay (talk) 02:23, 31 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If the quote is not meant to support a "debate" or the "ghost ending", I fail to see the relevance to your continued desire to add those types of comments to the article, especially after they repeatedly were removed. IMO the quote argues against the debate. And if the intent was "to film him jumping out" then that argues even more against the "ghost ending". In either case, avoid weasel words like "some believe" to add interpretation to the article and instead cite reliable sources as the facts of who "some" people are and why their interpretation has any weight to avoid fringe theories. AbramTerger (talk) 12:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

First off, I can't believe you're still debating this, when I haven't added the sentence again, and I admitted to you privately and publicly that not all of my sources were reliable.

When you say "types," as in more than one, I only added one (just to be accurate here). I kept adding the sentence because I was unaware of the existence of talk pages and discussion pages, so I had no idea that I was violating rules (I believe I already admitted this to you privately). I thought an average shmo like myself was simply removing it to irk me. And I believe you're wrong. The quote argues in favor of me. There was an alternate ending, and the ending they were forced to choose was not succesfully filmed, which is why I have read arguments/debates in which users have found wiggle room to interpret the originally intended ending. You're right, in that the term "some people" does not sound credible (which is much more eloquently worded than "weasel words," if I do say so myself). This is my 4th time admitting this to you (as I admitted this in the opening sentence, and I don't know how many more times you want me to admit this)- I understand that links to IMDB arguments are not reliable sources. In the future, I will not use them.

67.240.76.136 (talk) 00:28, 1 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I used "types" (plural) since there were 2 different comments made. One was about a debate on the car scene being suicide or not and the other was about the supernatural ending. They are 2 distinct topics. The term suicide was deleted from the topic heading and "deaths" was used as a more general term. But you still miss the point. Your quote argues for an alternate ending (which was not questions). It was the suggestion of an alternate interpretation of the current ending with a supernatural ending. There are 3 possibilities: Harold is dead and gone, Harold is living and dancing, or Harold is a ghost. Your quote only deals with the the first 2. The 3rd is the one needing a source. "Weasel words" is the term wikipedia uses if you follow the link, it is not mine. And I know you admitted about the reliable sources, but I still don't think you understand the difference between a confirmation of an alternate ending and confirmation of an alternate interpretation of the current ending. I also disagree that the ending "was not succesfully filmed". I think the ending works terrifically. It makes us believe he has killed himself until we see him dancing off at the end.AbramTerger (talk) 14:50, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Plot Synopsis
I noticed that the Plot Synopsis section was far, far too detailed. I went ahead and constructed a much more concise draft -- but then I noticed that a heated debate was raging, right as I was about to post.

I will refrain from editing the plot synopsis until the "ghost debate" has had a chance to settle. Patricia Meadows (talk) 06:59, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The "ghost debate" only showed up in "Harold's deaths" section. It was not part of the plot. I think the "ghost harold" debate has ended and the user realizes that there are no reliable sources arguing for that position and that it is only a fringe theory. I see no reason that you couldn't post an more concise draft for consideration. I agree the synopsis is much too detailedAbramTerger (talk) 14:31, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Uh... it's obvious that "weasel words" was not a term invented by you, as the phrase was hi-lighted, which means it is a link. I seriously think it should be re-named though...

"Types" is still innapropriate, as the two comments are related to eachother. Obviously, the first one was about a debate, and with the second one, I was referring to the conclusion(s) that evolved through the debates.

I don't miss the point. I know that the quote doesn't mention a supernatural ending, and only brings to light two possibilites. I used that quote to show you WHY internet users have come up with a third possibility (since he isn't seen jumping out, message board users have found room to simultaneously include the originally intended ending, and then come up with an explanation as to why he's at the top of the cliff).

I understand the difference between a confirmation of an alternate ending and a confirmation of an alternate interpretation. That's why I admitted to you 500 times that my sites (IMDB message boards and the IMDB FAQ section) weren't considered reliable, as I know that I haven't been able to accurately confirm the alternate interpretations. I am very, very aware that I have confirmed the alternate ending, as I have used the quote.

You are misunderstanding me regarding the ending. I think it's a beautiful ending. What I meant by "not succesfully filmed" was that Ashby didn't film all that he wanted to film. Not that the ending isn't good- it just didn't include the scene he wanted.

67.240.76.136 (talk) 00:45, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you think Ashby wanted to film and where has he been quoted saying it? I have heard those type of statement from "fringe theorists" who wanted an explicit scene of Harold leaving the car, but IMO that would destroy the idea that he could be dead and wreck the end of the film. What has made you conclude that there something that he wanted to film? (FYI, the ending from the [ http://www.script-o-rama.com/movie_scripts/h/harold-and-maude-script-screenplay.html script] dated May 29, 1970 by Higgins seems to match the filmed ending)AbramTerger (talk) 12:39, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

" I think the "ghost harold" debate has ended and the user realizes that there are no reliable sources arguing for that position and that it is only a fringe theory."

If you knew, that I knew, that my sources weren't considered reliable, then you should've stopped replying as soon as I admitted to the latter. 67.240.76.136 (talk) 00:51, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I continued (and am continuing) to reply, since I think you accept the limitations and will abide by the reliable sources, but I still think that you don't seem to grasp the larger view of the film if you even think, based on the film, that Harold is presented as a ghost at the end.AbramTerger (talk) 12:39, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and re-did the synopsis. Patricia Meadows (talk) 14:40, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Personally, I prefer a more detailed synopsis including most film details, but I think the purpose here is more a summary and not something more like an "episode guide". In this vein, I like it. I would like to hear what others think about details or summary...

This entire time, I have presented the views of others. Personally, I see both as a possibility. Definitely the one with him living, and also, I could understand Harold dying and setting his spirit free, as he said he would never love again, so perhaps he didn't see a reason to continue on Earth if he knew he'd never again love. I know... you're going to tell me that the latter doesn't make sense, but what doesn't make sense to me (and someone suggested this to me) was that after Harold got out of the car, he went back home to live with his mom!! If he lived, I think the first thing he would do is get as far away from his mother as possible (and everyone else that oppressed him)! Since I accept both views (as I don't care too much about which ending was decided upon first, which one was used, etc), I feel that I grasp the larger view of the film, as I am trying to keep an open mind (being one of Maude's lessons).

67.240.76.136 (talk) 23:59, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It is not about an "open mind" but about "reliable sources" for an encyclopedia. The standards are different for a reference source as opposed to a discussion board. It is not about what could be possible, but is most probable based on what the film suggests and not what the film does not refute.

But I thought we were done discussing "reliable sources," which is why I discussed my trying to keep an open mind. My last comments were not intended to back up fringe theories. And I agree, that it is most probable that he lived. 67.240.76.136 (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, I think it was stated in the book that came with the soundtrack. Otherwise, I remember reading it about two years ago. And to correct you, on these online debates, the theory is not that he merely died, but that he died and set his spirit free (therefore explaining his prescence at the top of the cliff). These online theorists are not trying to use this "missing scene" to their benefit (as it would not benefit any type of dying theory), but merely state it as a piece of trivia.

As for the script, I have no idea, because (and you've read the quote) they had two endings, so I'm not sure why one was written ahead of time before they had even decided on one (and I KNOW the script was written before they decided upon an ending, because, according to Ruth Gordon's autobiography, Harold and Maude was filmed between Sept. and Nov. of '71, meaning the endings weren't filmed until well after the script was written). I wish I could re-locate the source in which I read that Ashby would liked to have filmed him jumping out. I distinctly remember reading it, and haven't re-located it (and no, it wasn't from a message board, or some source like that- that much I remember). Since I currently don't have source to present to you (though, as stated above, I think it was the soudntrack booklet), I understand if you decide to disregard that "fact." And also stated a couple of paragraphs above, I really don't care which ending was filmed first, decided upon first, used, et, etc, I just try to listen to both sides and watch the ending for what it is. With that said, may we drop it? With the holiday vacation ending, I'm going back to school, and I won't be able to reply to your lovely comments. 67.240.76.136 (talk) 00:57, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * As mentioned the "spirit Harold" only appears to be online and seems to be what is a fringe theory. And I don't disregard any of your facts. I accept that 2 versions were made. I accept that the dying Harold must have come from Ashby during filming since the current film matches the script. I don't disregard, but would need to see the quote in context, to understand why Ashby would think he needed a shot of Harold leaving the car since very few of his other "deaths" showed how they were done (fake hand and retracting blade are the 2 that come to mind) especially since it would change the whole surprise death at the end which mirrors the "surprise death" at the start. Even if you find the original source to add the alternate ending quote and could find a source for a claim of a "desired unfilmed scene" of Harold leaving the car, at most you have (and both MattHucke and myself support it with the references) a section on an alternate ending. (The trivia of the unfilmed scene could possibly go in that section since there is no trivia section and it could be written to go along with it). But none of what you present leads any credibility to an intentional (or even unintentional) alternate interpretation with a "spirit harold" at the end of the film that was ultimately released so I have dropped it (you continue to bring it up). I don't think the alternate ending should be dropped, but as I stated, I can't write it since I have not read the source material and don't have access to it. AbramTerger (talk) 14:23, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

I continued to bring it up not to prove that Ashby wanted an alternate "spirit Harold," but because you told me that if I thought it possible for Harold to have died and set his spirit free, that I would not get the point of the film. And just to reassure you, I completely understand why you cannot write about an alternate interpretation, as IMDB pages are not considered credible, and I don't have any sources that suggest Ashby could see him as a "ghost Harold." I also understand that even if I provided the quote in which Ashby states he wanted to film him jumping out, it wouldn't prove that Ashby could see him as a "spirit" (and, like you, I think the "missing scene" would be uneccessary). At most, I have proven an alternate ending, which helps to explain why internet users have debated the ending.

I think much of this debate could have been avoided, because all I wanted to prove was that internet users have looked at it differently, but then I realized IMDB debates/FAQ section weren't considered reliable. My original intention was not to prove that Ashby could see it differently- only that internet users could. Well, this is all I have to say. I hope that this is the end of the discussion. 67.240.76.136 (talk) 17:21, 3 January 2010 (UTC)