Talk:Harry Potter influences and analogues/archive 1

Groosham Grange
Years ago, I read the children's novel "Groosham Grange" written by Anthony Horowitz and I found it rather similar to Harry Potter. "Groosham Grange" was published in 1988 by Methuen (Check out: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0416024629/026-7434006-7294052?v=glance&n=266239) and 1995 by Walker Books. I wonder if this qualifies as a work analogous to Harry Potter. Doberdog 13:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)Doberdog


 * I added it to the article before I read your comment. The book is another "oft mentioned" and definitely belongs here. I haven't read it myself so I can't elaborate.--woggly 07:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

"public accusations"
The only one who ever actually brought a court case against Rowling was Nancy Stouffer. As Neil Gaiman explicitly denies ever having considered suing Rowling, and details the source of the misunderstanding (an overzealous reporter from "The Scotsman"), I don't think this belongs in the same category. If someone complaining on a webpage, or even an article in a paper, count as "public rumors of plagiarism", then a lot more of these authors qualify. For example, the old rumour that Jill Murphy brought legal action against Rowling, which is still up on IMDB:. A pity IMDB has not seen fit to remove the rumour, though it is without foundation, as I have pointed out to them in a letter in the past. --woggly 07:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you know where I could find an authorative source that sates that Murphy did not consider suing Rowling? Because I've been scouring the web for weeks and haven't found one. THanks Serendipodous 14:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Harry Potter and Star Wars: A New Hope
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o246/admiralnelsonscreenies/HPSW.jpg

Thoughts? "Legitimate" enough for conclusion? I don't think its points can be denied, although it isn't any "official" source.
 * Not really; there's no indication of who wrote that comparison- it might just be someone's original research. Plus, Lucas borrowed the plot for "Star Wars" from Joseph Campbell's "Hero With A Thousand Faces", the whole point of which was that mythic quest tales all have the same plot. If you read "The Lord of the Rings," you'll find just as many concordances with Star Wars. More, in truth. Serendipodous 09:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The Adventures of Willy the Wizard
A second lawsuit by the son of author Adrian Jacobs.

As a possible antecedent of Parcelmouth, for only one of the supposed similarities, we can look to Vonda McIntyre's Dreamsnake, the Volsunga Saga's Fafnir, which gives Sigurd the ability to speak and understand the language of birds, and countless folk traditions which feature snake and snake-like creatures (dragons) which have or grant magical powers. Lee-Anne (talk) 00:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Here is a web site created by the person claiming infringement, which details everything that is claimed as a source for Rawlings:

http://willythewizard.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lee-Anne (talk • contribs) 01:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * This is discussed at Legal disputes over the Harry Potter series  Serendi pod ous  10:07, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

On the worst witch
It is not so much of an analogue as the expected result of a simmilar idea. I mean, the teacher's pet being the main characters nemesis is seen in a number of school based dramas, and the idea of having a school where people learn to use magic is not that much of a basic story structure, and the classes taken would almost certainly be simmilar, as those are the sorts of things that one would expect a school of magic to teach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.1.167 (talk • contribs)
 * Agreed, but this article isn't really about whether Rowling did or did not rip off books X or Y, it's about what the sources tell us. If I could find a source which says what you just did, I'd insert it in a second. Serendipodous 20:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Macbeth
Rowling admires the bard and Macbeth has ghosts, castles, and a prophecy that should have been ignored. The weird sisters, a rock band in Harry Potter, is a reference to the witches in Macbeth. Libertycookies 16:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

OK; two mentions on Accio Quote. Serendipodous 17:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This article needs a better title
Any ideas? Serendipodous 14:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Replace "analogous to" with "similar to." This use of "analogous to," while correct, is quite rare, and like far too much of the enwiki, is in place of an easily-understood alternative. BenB4 08:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposed move straw poll
Agree or disagree with move to Works similar to Harry Potter?


 * Agree as proposer. BenB4 08:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree I'll go with that; creates a nice lead in to the opening sentence. Serendipodous 08:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Pratchett para is now in the Attic and now back in the article
The new addition, which was very well sourced and well stated, actually highlighted the fact that the Pratchett paragraph doesn't compare his books to Harry Potter. There might be somewhere on Wikipedia to discuss their "rivalry," but it's not here. There has to be something that compares their works, but I haven't found it yet. Anyway, to the anonymous user who unwittingly pointed this out, thanks. Serendipodous 19:59, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * and back in it goes; I found a citation. Serendipodous 12:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Revisiting the title
"Works similar to Harry Potter" is a very subjective title. Given the content of the article, I think something like "Influences on Harry Potter" might be appropriate.-Wafulz 17:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. Also expanded "Influences" section to balance article's POV and accomodate new emphasis. Serendipodous 09:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use
I am not sure that the use of book covers to illustrate this article is compliant with WP:FAIR. Unless a Fair use can be declared for these book covers, in this article, the book covers will be removed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't really understand the whole fair use thing, but all the images are of books that are explicitly mentioned in the article. 16:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

OK. Read fair use policy. Removed most of them. Kept the following:


 * Books of Magic: shows physical similarity between Tim Hunter and Harry Potter
 * Sword in the Stone: Wizard, young boy, owl. Could be a Harry Potter image
 * Wizard's Hall: for its superficial Harry Potter similarities. Serendipodous 17:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I am afraid that these also need to go. The fair use policy means that we can only use non-free images (which book covers are) in the article that discuss the book itself. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well that's fairly crap. The first thing that automated peer review is going to complain about is that the article has no images. Serendipodous 19:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Some articles do not have images and will never have. This being a spinoff article of Harry Potter, I do not see what the problem would be. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Serendipodous, I see that you have put a lot of work on the Harry Potter series of articles, and we may be violating fair use also in Harry Potter parodies, Legal disputes over the Harry Potter series. I do not want to ruin your day with image deletions, so I would encourage to place fairusereview to these images so that editors familiar with fair use policy can take a look. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I've merged "Nancy Stouffer" and "The Legend of Rah and the Muggles" with "legal disputes...", since they're only important as regards their relation to Harry Potter. Hence, Legal disputes is now the only page that mentions that particular book. Serendipodous 10:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The Bible
Although the Bible itself may be inspired by prior myths and fables, Rowling has said that she is glad no one has questioned her too thoroughly on her faith. "Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." 'You can lead a fool to a book but you can't make them think'. Vancouver Sun (2000-10-26). In Book 7, Harry willingly gives his own life to save his friends and the world, is killed by Voldemort, goes to a place called King's Cross and then returns to life. Harry, as well as those who support him are all tortured by a spell Crucio, that sounds similar to crucification. 70.137.148.86 00:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This part is probably OR and definately a spoiler if you haven't finished Book 7**
 * There is a lot of potential in discussing the influence not just of the Bible but of all mythologies from across the globe. However, it would probably need its own article, and we would need to gather together a huge number of reliable secondary sources. Simply making the comparisons you did isn't enough since, as you said, it is OR. Serendipodous 05:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

GAN Comments on Harry Potter influences and analogues
Hi Serendipodous, Someone has removed the partial review tag from the GAC nomination. I have been working on the review for a few hours now, but I find that I cant find out anything to point out. Short of asking you to reconsider the images, everything seems OK! Im at a loss because to date I have reviewed five articles with pretty much lots of nitpicking (?) :-) but first review where I find I have nothing to say. Here is how it fares -
 * 1) Well Written - Yes.
 * 2) Factually accurate & verifiable - Absolutely. You are very exacting in this aspect.
 * 3) Broad in its coverage - Yes. I have paged the history, peer review and googled a bit. I could not come across any new issues which met your high selection standards and that you had not considered in your history of development of the article!.
 * 4) Neutral - Yes. I have seen your keeping factoids out till you had references and then you bunged them in!
 * 5) Stable - Yes. Good work on keeping cruft out.
 * 6) Images have acceptable copyright status - Not applicable. Personally I think you have a really good case for 'fair use'.

Based on what I have seen, I think its absolutely fine for the intermediate quality standards of GA. You would need peer review to improve en route to FA. So I am passing your article outright. Congratulations. You have a GA on your hand!

Regards,AshLin 13:33, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

analogue vs. analogy
Apologies for hijacking this discussion section, I'm unfamiliar with how to use it correctly. The word in the article title should be ANALOGIES, rather than analogues. Illiteracy pains me. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.226.1.194 (talk • contribs)


 * No. An analogy is a comparison between two different things. An analogue is something that bears comparison to something else. Serendipodous 15:48, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Spellcasting 101: Sorcerers Get All The Girls
I removed this as unsourced (unlike all the other examples). It also fails to make any claim that anyone has noted this similarity, or that there is any possibility at all the Rowling was aware of this game. Skittle 21:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Moved section to The Attic. Serendipodous 21:55, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Chaucer influences
JKR recently acknowledged that Chaucer may have influenced the tale of the three Deathly Hallows. --Fbv65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 21:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Damn. Now I have to read "The Pardoner's Tale" and the only copy I have is in Middle English. It's a shame she didn't say why; any parallels I draw will be OR. Serendipodous 22:06, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I know, I would have added it to the article myself except I didn't know what else to say except what I wrote above… :) --Fbv65 e del / ☑t / ☛c || 22:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, we'd probably need a published source to say more than what she said, but it's pretty obvious that it's to do with three men seeking Death (personified), and greed leading to death and destruction! I'm sure if we wait a few days, someone will say that in print or web form. Skittle 22:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, added source. It was literally the ONLY source on the internet that dealt with this, but it dealt with it well. Unfortunately there is no indication as to who wrote it, or for whom. Still, information is information.  Serendi pod ous  18:47, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Roddy Doyle
It has been alleged that Rowling's first husband was abusive which is the subject of Rowling's favorite Doyle book The woman who walked into doors. Can we make the connection or is it OR? Libertycookies 19:57, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It would be total OR and rather intrusive to boot.  Serendi pod ous  15:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

JK's reading list for kids
While she doesn't explain any influences on her work, this might be worthy of inclusion somewhere, since the books she selects would continue to influence children beyond her own series. Note the list has some overtly political books, and books that focus on racism and class themes. Libertycookies 13:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2006/0131-guardian-higgins.html

JK Rowling Author of the Harry Potter series

Wuthering Heights Emily Brontë

Charlie and the Chocolate Factory Roald Dahl

Robinson Crusoe Daniel Defoe

David Copperfield Charles Dickens

Hamlet William Shakespeare

To Kill a Mockingbird Harper Lee

Animal Farm George Orwell

The Tale of Two Bad Mice Beatrix Potter

The Catcher in the Rye JD Salinger

Catch-22 Joseph Heller
 * They can go into the "Other favourites" section.  Serendi pod ous  15:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I removed the Bible
Rowling may cite the Bible as an influence, but she hasn't said why or how, and until she does than the Bible, like the Canturbury Tales, has to stay on the back burner. Eventually, I hope, she will, and when she does the Bible can go back in. Otherwise it's just OR. Other critic's opinions might be valid, but you'd need a fair few to ensure lack of bias, and really that would be another article in its own right.  Serendi pod ous  15:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * EDIT: OK, I've included a section on Biblical influences that consists of a shortened version of the section in "Religious debates..." Much of the material on Satanism and the Christian right has been removed, since it is irrellevant.  Serendi pod ous  17:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Give me a minute to check this
It's not an influence, because Rowling hasn't referred to it, but it might be an analogue.

In the Penal Colony
A reviewer in The Guardian notes the similarity of Umbridge's punishments to Kafka's In the Penal Colony, a story about the last use of an elaborate torture and execution device that carves the sentence of the man on his skin in a flowery script before letting him die, all in the course of twelve hours.

OK, I just read the source. It's not notable enough for inclusion, mainly because it amounts to maybe twenty words in a 1000-word piece, but also because the reference does not make explicit which torture is being referred to, and thus any such conclusions are OR. Given the nature of this article's topic, OR should be avoided at all costs. Serendi pod ous  14:09, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The holy grail for this article...
would be a quote from Jill Murphy about JK Rowling or Harry Potter. If there is anyone anywhere who knows where one is, please help us find it. Thanks!  Serendi pod ous  17:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * "...A letter to the Daily Mail in 2001 asked ‘How much does the Harry Potter phenomenon owe to Jill Murphy’s Worst Witch series?’ and talking to Jill, it’s clear that she looks back longingly to the days when she wasn’t constantly having to field questions concerning her reactions to the fact that Hogwarts is something of a rival establishment.


 * ‘It’s irritating … everyone asks the same question and I even get children writing to ask me whether I mind about the Hogwarts school of witchcraft and pointing out similarities. Even worse are reviewers who come across my books, or see the TV series, and, without taking the trouble to find out that it’s now over quarter of a century since I wrote my first book, make pointed remarks about “clever timing” – or say things like “the Worst Witch stories are not a million miles from J K Rowling’s books”. The implications are really quite insulting!"
 * http://www.booksforkeeps.co.uk/issues/136/350


 * There you go. Libertycookies 21:46, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. How did you find it?  Serendi pod ous  06:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Just used Google and some sorting of the chaff. Glad it fit the bill. Libertycookies 14:08, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

J.K. Rowling Opens Up About Books' Christian Imagery
More stuff for the Bible as influence. Libertycookies 23:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC) http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1572107/20071017/index.jhtml

The lead needs to be expanded
Recent additions have shortened the lead and lengthened the article, so the lead needs to expand. Any ideas?  Serendi pod ous  07:05, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Wuthering Heights--Heathcliff and Snape
Did anyone else find similarities between Heathcliff and Snape's personalities and circumstances (both fell in love with childhood companions, detested the suitors of those companions, took anger out on the companion's child, saw the suitor's eyes in the companion's child's eyes....? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.248.78.140 (talk) 05:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If you can find a reference showing that someone else thought of the connection, then it can be included.  Serendi pod ous  06:52, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sKRkzVIK3foC&pg=PT13&lpg=PT13&dq=snape++wuthering-heights+byronic+snape&source=web&ots=MqgdkIDEs4&sig=QajAgLIhlGmLt9xOwb3xqVLKm8g&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPT13,M1 I've found one good citation. I'll need to find one more before I can include it].  Serendi pod ous  16:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Hell. Added it.  Serendi pod ous  17:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

More magic schools
I can bet the most popular magic school is hogwarts, but for example theres a lot of magic schools or similar things like Miss Cakle's witch academy and the school in Roke Island, there are many more even on Tv. and don't forget the parodies and etc... then... Why do I feel that if I make a series about a magic school people would think it is a Harry Potter rip-off???-User:Jak-Esz —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jak-Esz (talk • contribs) 02:08, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Mrs Grackle's Academy is mentioned already. Don't know about Roke Island. What's that from?  Serendi pod ous  03:18, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

From Earthsea —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.173.147.68 (talk) 22:02, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

By the way, No body is actually answering my question "Why do I feel that If I make a series about a magic school peple will feel it is a rip-off???" User:Jak-Esz —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.248.40.6 (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Only you can say why you feel that way. Not me.  Serendi pod ous  01:23, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah! A friend told me my story is not that similar, it is nottin alike. Anyway I don't think a editorial would publish it but thats just my mind anyway I thnk I should try haha! User:Jak-Esz —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.173.147.108 (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

There haven't always been stories about magical schools, BBC Radio 4's programme "Open Book" said during an interview with Jill Murphy last year that she unwittingly invented the genre when she wrote "The Worst Witch". She said it actually took her about 3 years to find a publisher because they thought a childrens story about children learning to be witches was too scary and that no-one would buy such a novel, there being no similar books around at the time. (She also intimated (without explicitly saying it, she more sort of did a verbal "...") that she felt Harry Potter was a ripoff of her books.) User9932 (talk) 01:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The Sceptre of Power
First time I read the first Harry Potter book I immediately thought of | The Sceptre of Power :( --Pichote (talk) 11:54, 8 September 2011 (UTC)