Talk:Harry S. Truman/Archive 1

why hide S. or S ?
If you are interested in whether it is S or S., look below. Here what I wish to ask is: if many many people find it an interesting topic, why hide the choice in hidden notes and the talk page? Just put a couple of sentences in the article right up front. People find it interesting. (then put in a hidden note that says don't add too much, it's not THAT interesting)

S. or S ?
Style, shmyle - this is all much ado about nothing. Harry S Truman DID have a middle name -- it was the letter S, and nothing else. This is not uncommon in America, though it is less common than it used to be -- like people have more than one middle name, or having no middle name at all, or having double first names (Jan-Michael, Mary Jo, etc.), and so on. In Truman's case, his parents apparently could not agree which grandparent's name to give him as a middle name, so since both of the candidate names began with 'S,' they gave him the letter S as a compromise. THAT is the most important thing to note in all of this discussion - the letter S was Truman's complete middle name. It was not an abbreviation.

Of course, as with anything to do with personal names, the first order of business is to ascertain what the person who bore the name actually did with it orthographically. Style manuals and policies are absolutely irrelevant if following them means you don't reproduce the person's name AS THEY ACTUALLY USED IT.

For example, all style manuals for Australian English spell the word 'labour' with a 'u' - but the political party is called "Labor Party," not "Labour." So, if you're writing about the Australian labour party, you would want to use its actual name and call it "Labor Party," not "Labour Party." Likewise, you would not want to capitalise the poetry of e.e. cummings just because your style manual says you're supposed to; it would be all wrong. Likewise, if you're in America and writing about the British Labour Party, you would want to spell it 'Labour,' notwithstanding American style directs 'labor,' because "Labour Party" is a proper name - and the native orthography of a proper name ALWAYS takes precedence over style manuals and policy directives.

So, the first order of business is to ascertain what Harry Truman preferred. The record indicates he was inconsistent. Sometimes he did "Harry S Truman" and sometimes he did "Harry S. Truman." He is dead, so he cannot be asked and there are no living sources that can provide a definitive answer. What to do, what to do?

One possiblity is to consult a style manual -- but that is inappropriate unless ONE style manual has been formally adopted for ALL of Wikipedia, in which case THAT style manual is the one that should be consulted.

But we do not need to go that far. In any personal name, it is only appropriate to use a period when the name is being abbreviated. For Example:

Thomas John Smith - no abbreviations, no periods. Thomas J. Smith - one abbreviation, one period. Thos. J. Smith - two abbreviations, two periods. T.J. Smith - two abbreviations, two periods

HOWEVER - the professional name, "TJ Smith" (as if T and J were one name, pronounced "Teejay") would not take any periods, because "TJ Smith" is itself a proper name that does not use any periods (in this case, as a professional name, it would be the name of a business - or of a person presenting him/herself as a business entity).

NOTA BENE: We are talking about PERIODS here, NOT "dots." "Dot" is computer-speak for a keystroke used in URL's and domain names: "www(dot)wikipedia(dot)org". A period, on the other hand, is an article of punctuation used to terminate sentences and abbreviate words. A "dot" is not used for the same purposes as a period, and a period is not used for the same purposes as a dot -- notwithstanding they are functionally the same thing, because they are conceptually different things.

So, the problem turns on this question: Is the letter 'S' in Harry Truman's name an abbreviation? If it is an abbreviation, it must take the period. If it is not an abbreviation, it must not take the period. Style manuals don't come into it - especially if they're just plain arbitrary and wrong.

On this point, all sources agree, including Truman himself. The letter 'S' is NOT an abbreviation, but the letter 'S' on its own is his complete middle name.

Because the letter 'S' is Truman's complete middle name, NOT an abbreviation of some longer name beginning with 'S', the use of a period is inappropriate.

SIDE STORY: One letter names are rare, but they do exist. The best-known is probably the Scottish name Y, from the Gaelic 'Aoidh,' and likewise pronounced something like "uuoy". (A variation of this name, based on the genitive form of Aoidh - spelled 'hAoidh' - is translated from Gaelic as 'Hy'.) Otherwise, all letters of the alphabet have names - and those names are sometimes used as personal names.

For the reasons given, the periods used in the name "Harry S. Truman" because the 'S' is not abbreviated but is his complete, one-letter middle name. His full legal name is thus "Harry S Truman".

Properly, the "S" in Harry S Truman should have no period after it. "S" is not an abbreviation for a middle name; it is his middle name, itself. - User:RjLesch
 * No, see . -- Anon


 * See also: Harry S. Truman.--Menchi 01:59, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * Someone changed 'em all back. Perhaps a reversion to the 17 December 2004 version would be in order. Chris Lawson 17:56, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Fixed; thanks. --Dominus 18:22, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Happened again. Chris Lawson 04:45, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * It might be worth putting some comments hidden in the text, in case any of these folks are doing it out of well-intentioned ignorance. -Willmcw 05:40, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I tried to revert the page just after I posted the above, and with a note in the Edit Summary that said something to the effect of "READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE BEFORE EDITING TO REMOVE THE PERIOD," but every time I tried to revert, it got discarded. Perhaps I'm not "important" enough to be allowed to revert stuff ;) but I agree that a note should be placed on the page somewhere. Chris Lawson 18:54, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Manually reverting articles is somewhat broken, or at least was last night, I do believe. --Golbez 19:13, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)
 * Glad it hear it wasn't just me - I spent 20 minutes trying to revert it. I've now added big reminders in the source text to please not change without prior discussion. That won't helpe against intentional mischief, but might forestall do-gooders. -Willmcw 23:40, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

??? What happened? I had moved that, and the Older versions shows that, but the diff to mav's change shows that it was still the redirect. -- Zoe


 * I deleted Harry S. Truman, moved Harry S Truman to Harry S. Truman and then restored Harry S. Truman. All is well now. --mav


 * It really depends on what the rest of the presidents' names look like. If we included their entire middle names, we should leave out the period.  But, if we only put their middle initial, then teh period is fine.  My two cents.  --Ratiocinate


 * And mine - having only a middle initial is not the same as having a one-letter middle name. Since it is an initial, it should have a period. The fact that Truman joked about treating it as a name is something of a confirmation that it isn't. Perhaps more importantly, the presidential library is named after "Harry S. Truman", as is the aircraft carrier. The point could be argued endlessly, but official usage seems to include a period. Since the point seems likely to come up again, I've restored the link between the controversial character and the explanation further down the page. toh


 * Taken the words out of my mouth Ratiocinate. Snopes claims that Harry's middle name really was S.  On this basis, either "Harry S Truman" or "Harry S. Truman" is correct, but they give different amounts of information - the first gives the middle name and the second gives only the initial, in exactly the same way as you can write either "Franklin Delano Roosevelt" or "Franklin D. Roosevelt".  His signature and the name of the library just happen to be to the precision of the second option, purely out of choice. -- Smjg 10:28, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Somebody please change Truman's middle name.
I don't want to change the title myself, but Truman's middle name should be changed. The S does not stand for a middle name so there should be no dot in the honorary military title. Jazz1979 04:41, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * That doesn't follow. The name "S" begins with an "S".  See my comment under the first section.  If you've evidence of whether his "honorary military title" had the dot in (stating only his middle initial) or not (stating his whole middle name), then go ahead with it. -- Smjg 08:47, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * If he used it that way himself (as can be seen in the illustration) well, that pretty much settles it for me. It should stay "Harry S. Truman". --Valentinian 22:17, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * What evidence have we that he only ever used one form in his life? -- Smjg 10:34, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * We have the Truman Library and Museum, showing the “S.” As the plaintiff (s), you need to produce something that says otherwise. Truman said that the period should be omitted. But went on using it himself. Its "tomAto, tomahto" at this point, either should work. How much time should we spend on this issue? Please read the excerpt below:

USE OF THE PERIOD AFTER THE "S" IN HARRY S. TRUMAN'S NAME

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/speriod.htm


 * In recent years the question of whether to use a period after the "S" in Harry S. Truman's name has become a subject of controversy, especially among editors. The evidence provided by Mr. Truman's own practice argues strongly for the use of the period. While, as many people do, Mr. Truman often ran the letters in his signature together in a single stroke, the archives of the Harry S. Truman Library has numerous examples of the signature written at various times throughout Mr. Truman's lifetime where his use of a period after the "S" is very obvious.


 * Mr. Truman apparently initiated the "period" controversy in 1962 when, perhaps in jest, he told newspapermen that the period should be omitted. In explanation he said that the "S" did not stand for any name but was a compromise between the names of his grandfathers, Anderson Shipp Truman and Solomon Young. He was later heard to say that the use of the period dated after 1962 as well as before.


 * Several widely recognized style manuals provide guidance in favor of using the period. According to The Chicago Manual of Style all initials given with a name should "for convenience and consistency" be followed by a period even if they are not abbreviations of names. The U.S. Government Printing Office Style Manual states that the period should be used after the "S" in Harry S. Truman's name.


 * Most published works using the name Harry S. Truman employ the period. Authors choosing to omit the period in their texts must still use it when citing the names of organizations that employ the period in their legal titles (e.g. Harry S. Truman Library) thus seeming to contradict themselves. Authoritative publications produced by the Government Printing Office consistently use the period in Mr. Truman's name, notably the Department of State's documentary series Foreign Relations of the United States, Diplomatic Papers, the Department of the Army's United States Army in World War II and two major publications of the Office of the Federal Register, Public Papers of the President - Harry S. Truman and the United States Government Organization Manual.


 * WikiDon 18:39, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * This doesn't really answer the question. The second paragraph in your quote already indicates that Harry didn't always use the "." himself.  Moreover, why does everyone seem to be ignoring my point and carrying on with the false dichotomy?  The only logical way that the version with the "." can be the only correct form is that his middle name was the two-character sequence "S.".  Or maybe the whole concept has been illogical since its conception.... -- Smjg 19:40, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Note that the Truman biography at whitehouse.gov uses Harry S Truman. --  Donald Albury (Dalbury) ( Talk )  10:34, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there is suppose to be a period after the S, however, the name in the first line and the name above the photo should give the full names, not the middle initial, so in those two cases there should be no period. -arctic gnome 18:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

1945-1948
This article omits many of the events of 1945-1948, a crucial period in the Truman presidency. There should be discussion of the beginning of the cold war, the partition of Korea, the Berlin airlift, and the Marshall plan. Dominus 06:26 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)


 * Go for it! -- Infrogmation 06:34 Apr 5, 2003 (UTC)

College degree
Harry Truman is also the last president to not have a college degree. This little bit of trivia should be included somewhere. -Harry

Ku Klux Klan
Recently, an anonymous user changed


 * Some claim that he was for a short time a member of the Ku Klux Klan, but this has not been verified.

to


 * Some claim that he was for a short time a member of the Ku Klux Klan, this has never been verified and if he was a member he left due to the Klan's anti-Catholic policies.

I changed it back, for several reasons. Most important, it isn't clear to me what the revised version could possibly mean. If it's not known that he ever was a memeber, how could there be a reason for his quitting? It sounds like an alternative defense in a trial---"We will prove that my client did not commit the homicide, and that if he did commit the homicide, it was in self defense."

Also, I wasn't sure that the clause added was factual. I've read a lot of things that Truman had said and written about the Klan, and it seems to me that Truman would have had a lot of reasons to quit the Klan other than their anti-Catholicism. At the time he would have belonged to the Klan, for instance, he would have been in the clothing business with Eddie Jacobsen, his old war buddy, who was Jewish.

Finally, the revised version of the sentence is stilted and sounds bad. -- Dominus 13:23, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

According to David McCullough's book, in 1922, while Truman was running for country judge, his friend Edgar Hinde talked Truman into handing over $10 as a KKK membership fee. Shortly afterwards, a KKK organizer met with Truman and offered KKK backing if he would promise not to hire Catholics if elected. Truman refused (since he had commanded mostly Catholics during WW I) and got his $10 refunded. He never attended a KKK meeting, and after that, the KKK worked against him during elections, suggesting (for example) that his grandfather was Jewish, etc. -- User:Dpm64 2005-01-11

Did he ever become a member? Did he ever go to a meeting and go through the initiation process? I don't think he was ever a member; the deal was never consummated. WikiDon 15:41, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 * "Notable Ku Klux Klan members in national politics#Harry Truman|Notable Ku Klux Klan members in national politics."

Why not change it to somethng like: "There are different point of view. Some believe that he was a member but he left because..." ~mister.woody

Jews
While not bad, the anon's recent edits purged all mention of his dislike for Jews and of his association with the KKK. Since I don't know how major/factual these are, I mention this here. --Golbez 20:08, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't have a reference source handy, but didn't he have a jewish business partner early on? I seem to recall that he went on to become the first Israeli ambassador to the U.S., after helping persuade President Truman to recognize Israel.  I think it's essential to have some mention of the KKK episode, even though it was brief and he quit without ever attending a meeting (as soon as he found out they were anti-Catholic). Dpm64 03:25, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * The Jewish business partner you're referring to was Eddie Jacobson, who was a lifelong friend of Truman's. Regarding the KKK incident, I believe your account is the one supported by David McCulloch's recent biography. -- Dominus 14:08, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In any event, the establishment of Israel was part of USA foreign policy, not 'sympathy' with Jews per se.--TresRoque 13:59, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hiroshima and Nagasaki
I would like to read more information on his decision to drop the A bomb on Japan, if anybody knowledgeable on this topic wants to add.--Sonjaaa 03:49, Nov 27, 2004 (UTC)

And is it true that the bomb on Nagasaki was dropped due to Truman forgetting to tell the military to not drop the second bomb?


 * No, that's not true. As they decided to do it, Truman initially made the decision to drop the first bomb (on Hiroshima), and thereafter the decision to drop more bombs was placed in the hands of the military, it was at their discretion. Because no word of surrender had been received from Japan, the military - not Truman - decided to drop the second bomb. Shortly thereafter, Truman took back the sole authority to drop the bomb to himself. The U.S. did not immediately have any more bombs to drop at that point, but just the same, if it came to the point where the country would have to drop more bombs, Truman wanted to be in control. So, in short, it's not that he forgot. It's simply that he gave the authority to drop the bomb to the military after he made the decision himself to drop the first one on Hiroshima. After he gave the authority to the military to drop the bomb, the military decided to drop one on Nagasaki, after which time Truman returned the sole authority to the presidency. The PBS Documentary Truman goes into considerable detail about this.

The Buck Stops Here
I believe that Truman did indeed coin this phrase, as a play on the already-established phrase "pass the buck". Is there any documentary evidence either way? -- Dominus 18:24, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * According to this page at the Truman Library it was not coined by Truman. -- Dominus 18:29, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * On the other hand, according to the OED, it is original with Truman:


 * buck9 b. fig. the buck stops here: H. S. Truman's phrase for &#8216;the responsibility rests here&#8217;, i.e. the buck cannot be passed any further (see quot. 1952). orig. U.S.


 * -- Dominus 18:39, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Another reference confirming the conventional view that it is an old poker term: Discovery Channel (BTW, my interpretation of the OED cite is that they are not asserting he coined the phrase, only that he made it his own.) -Willmcw 19:39, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * He didn't coin the phrase. He simply popularized it all the more.

True.

ORIGIN mid 19th cent.: from the use of a buck-handled knife to indicate the dealer in a poker game. Source: Apple computer dictionary, 1.0.1, 2005.

And, on the subject of Truman's facility with the English language, can his comment on black American men - something to the effect that all they want is 'tight pussy, new shoes and a warm place to shit' - be verified?

--TresRoque 14:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Where the hell did this come up from? --Reverend Loki 17:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It's the 'joke' that cost Earl Butz his job as Nixon's Secretary of Agriculture. I've never heard it mentioned in connection with Truman, however. -- Donald Albury 00:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Hamrt 16:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)"The Buck Stops Here" became associated with Harry Truman when his friend Fred Canfil gave him a small sign for his desk emblazened with the phrase. Canfil had seen one like it on the desk of a reformatory warden in El Reno, Oklahoma and had a copy made for the President. The sign was not on Truman's desk for very long, but the term stuck and eventually became acredited to Truman. (Ref: "Truman" by David McCullough 1992 P.481)

Cabinet
Shouldn't we list when they first took office instead of starting from the start of Truman's first term? After all Harold L. Ickes started his job way back in 1933, but you wouldn't know it from the table.james_anatidae 03:42, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)


 * Good point. I think that that applies to most (or all) of the cabinet members.  On the other hand, you could say that the dates listed are the dates that they were members of Truman's cabinet.  I think that I'll just put a note next to the table. Morris 17:22, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)

Recent Vandalism
I just rolled the page back to its 28 January version and did some minor edits on it -- just cleanup, really. I noticed when I was doing that that the *only* edits to this page since then were either vandalism or reversion of such. Perhaps it's time for a temporary "locked for editing?"

On a side note, I can't think of any reason why Harry Truman, of all people, would be such a target for vandals... &mdash;chris.lawson (talk) 05:59, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

On 27 November 2006, I rolled the page back to its last version 26 Nov 2006. I noticed that the opening of the article had been vandalized. Suggest possible lock down of article for one month. (2215 Nov 2006 (PST)) - macphile

"distinguished"
The word "distinguished" has been temporarily reverted and placed here pending clarification of this phrase,
 * sent a distinguished American delegation to the U.N.'s first General Assembly;

this phrase presumabley refers to the United Nations Conference on International Organization in San Fransisco from April to June of 1945 (seeing the reference to Eleanor Roosevelt). However, the distinguished Soviet spy Alger Hiss headed the delegation. Hopefully this one sentence can be rewritten in such a way as to eliminate the glorious attribute that a Soviet GRU operative acted as the United Nations first General Secretary. Thank you. Nobs01 18:26, 17 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Hiss could have been considered "distinguished" before he became something else? WikiDon 18:35, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

RE: Puerto Rican versus Puerto Rico
Sirs, the link Puerto Rican takes you to a different article than Puerto Rico. Puerto Rican is about a person, persons, or a people. Puerto Rico is a geographic place or a territory by phyisical definition. There are Puerto Ricans have NEVER been to Puerto Rico. I think that there is room for both links, to what they refer. The two assassins should go to Puerto Rican. 'Besides, does it cost anymore to have two links? It costs four brackets; " "?' WikiDon 18:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)


 * The Puerto Rican article is not very informative. Someone reading this article, who clicks through on a link, presumably wants information about the Puerto Rican independence movement, not an article about ethnic affiliations.--Bcrowell 18:42, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like that article should be broken into two: 1) Puerto Rican means: a person of Puertarican desent, and 2) the "Puerto Rican independence movement" should be its own article? WikiDon 19:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Truman's VP
I have just edited this article to show that Barkley was not Truman's VP for the whole term. From the time Truman took over from FDR in 1945 to after the 1948 election, there was no VP. The office was vacant. We could list who was next in line during this time, but I feel this would rise to the level of trivia. This also applies to Gerald Ford and LBJ. - Hoshie | 10:31, 24 September 2005 (UTC)