Talk:Haruhi Suzumiya (light novels)

Redundant Article
I propose this should be merged with The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya. These two articles cover extremely similar ground, and would be served as one article. --Nihon? 21:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

This article covers the books, that other article covers the TV series. I think they're better off as two articles, especially since there seem to be people on that other article who haven't read the books presenting wild conjectures as fact and defending them by claiming that the books "have no meaning" there. Omgwtflolz 05:00, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that this is the case, it's still incredibly bad practice to have two articles, partly to prevent inaccurate information added. Most articles have the books and the animated series on one page, too. --Nihon? 09:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Advantages of merging: all info in one place, cross-referencing of facts, good standard practice. Disadvantages of merging: differences between the two media's versions could get confusing (the anime is based on bits and pieces from various of the novels, but goes under the name of one of the novels); very long page (the amount of info will definitely balloon as the growing number of passionate fans of the anime do such things as translate words on the blackboards).>>On balance, I favor separate pages, because this anime is becoming a cult and the information could become unwieldy on one page. If anyone can propose a way of keeping large amounts of info straight on one page, I'd favor that. --hashihime


 * Details from the Novels could go into the individual articles pertaining to the novels themselves. As far as the anime, it should be sufficient enough to cover within' the episode list. Information regarding characters - that's covered in the character pages. Furthermore, if the main article gets to big, we can make appropriate splits later on. KyuuA4 07:56, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how this article, which is about the source material, is redundant. If anything, it's the other article, which is about either one book in the series or the anime, that's redundant. 202.156.6.54 05:55, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I guess it should be noted here that the meat of discussion is taking place on Talk:The_Melancholy_of_Haruhi_Suzumiya. Omgwtflolz 10:11, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Voting. To Merge or Not to Merge. That is the Question.
Merge. Merging will make the The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya the primary article for this series. Plus, general information (like the 3 organizations pertaining to Yuki, Mikuru, and Itsuki) about the series can be held here. KyuuA4 07:56, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It looks like this was decided against a year ago. This is the main article for the series, with the Melancholy article focusing on the anime adaption. Doceirias 08:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Not Merge. Based on article scope along, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya's scope only covers the first novel of the series and it's many adaptations including the manga and anime. This article is about the source material, and is the main article for the Haruhi Suzumiya series despite The Melancholy page getting more of the attention due to the anime. And the merger I proposed at The Melancholy was to merge the SOS Brigade and Affiliations section into this article because they do not belong within the scope of The Melancholy exactly since they apply to all the books.-- 十  八  08:13, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Define Kitakou
The word Kitakou appears in the article text but is not explained. I guess it is a location but I am not sure. Locations are not mentioned here either.

It's a contraction of their school name. Kita = North, kou = high school. Like if you went to North Blahblah High School, you'd call it "NorthHigh" 67.85.24.201 (talk) 02:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Renaming
I'm going to rename this article to Suzumiya Haruhi (series) instead of the current Suzumiya Haruhi series since the term series is just a designation meant for organization and to lessen confusion between the novel series and the character, Suzumiya Haruhi. Also, the title should be kept in the eastern-style naming convention as defined in Manual_of_Style_%28Japan-related_articles%29. -- Juhachi 18:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Image
How about using one of the books' covers instead?
 * Yes, the image here should be the cover of the novel, the image here is only temporary. I will change now. --Leeyc0 14:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Link to web translation project.
Why was the link to the web translation project removed from external links? I think it was a fine resource. (Though I don't want to put it back if it was removed for legal reasons or something.)
 * Well, after consulting WP:EL, I came across a paragraph which may pertain to the link's removal:
 * External sites can possibly violate copyright. Linking to copyrighted works is usually not a problem, as long as you have made a reasonable effort to determine that the page in question is not violating someone else's copyright. If it is, please do not link to the page.  Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States (Intellectual Reserve v. Utah Lighthouse Ministry).  Also, linking to a page that illegally distributes someone else's work sheds a bad light on us (see Copyrights and in particular Contributors' rights and obligations).
 * I'm not totally sure if it violates copyright though they are unofficially translating it and I doubt they have permission from anyone from Japan who's connected with the books, such as the creator or the publishing and distributing company. What I bolded is what I believe is what we may have in this situation. -- (' 十八  |  talk ') 16:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks bad from a copyright standpoint to link to the site but I think it should be mentioned in the article that the novels are being translated into english on the net. Cerevox 22:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree -- we don't mention fanart or fanfics, why should we mention fantranslations? I've seen some articles that mention fansubs, but I'd be in favor of removing that information as well. The information is temporary (assuming the books well eventually be professionally translated) and not really important enough for inclusion. Especially since fan translations are a blatant violation of copyright. Doceirias 22:49, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Differences over the anime
It looks like the character descriptions, for example, have been directly copied from the anime page. Because of this, it would require some cleaning up. To a person who's only read the novels, the phrase "as seen in the movie created by (etc)..." would appear odd (for it refers to a character's movements), because...well, I guess you see the point without further explaining. To make it short, take out all the bits of information, that cannot be deduced by reading the novels. Rexas 12:10, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Renaming (again)
Surely this article should be called Haruhi Suzumiya (series) to conform with the Japanese Manual of Style (Names)? "If the name in question is a title (i.e., of a book, an award, etc.), the name order within the title itself should not be changed." The book titles on the page all refer to "Haruhi Suzumiya", not "Suzumiya Haruhi". --Ppk01 16:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yet the point is that the original titles were all listed as "Suzumiya Haruhi no (insert Japanese adjective here)", which is why the article is kept in the original form of the name.-- (' 十八  |  talk ') 18:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed... I do hope those novels are licensed soon, so that the "original Japanese title" argument can be pronounced null and void. May I just note, however, that not only are the books referred to as "The ×|××× of Haruhi Suzumiya", but this English title is used at the beginning of the first (chronological) episode of the anime series. (I know the article's not about the anime, but it really makes you think, doesn't it?) --Ppk01 21:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Is there any special significance of the name of the article Characters relating to Haruhi Suzumiya? I haven't seen an article named similarly before. --Squilibob 07:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I chose that name when I merged the articles simply because it seemed to be the most comprihensive. It couldn't really be called Characters of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya since it covers more than just the anime, and naming it Characters of Suzumiya Haruhi (series) seemed confusing and ambiguous. Since all these characters are related to the central Haruhi Suzumiya, and that series, in some way, I thought it was the best choice at the time. However, it's not like I didn't request help several weeks before I merged the articles. Behold the section I created on the talk page of the main article where no one replied: Talk:The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya. So perhaps it was a lack of peer responses that led me to entitle the article as such, but please, if you can think of a more suitable title, don't hesitate to rename the article.-- (' 十八  |  talk ') 11:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well I have been renaming character list articles today so that they comply with Lists (stand-alone lists). That just means putting List of in front of the article name, so is List of characters relating to Haruhi Suzumiya alright? --Squilibob 13:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. ;) -- (' 十八  |  talk ') 14:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

English titles?
Are any of these English titles, aside from Melancholy, official in any sense? If not, they should be noted as such.--SeizureDog 21:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I once found an "official" image with cutout bookmarks where on each one was the title of the novel in English and the character that appeared on their respective covers: http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thesneakerdecember06boolo9.jpg


 * Would this image alone be enough to confirm the "official" translations? -- (' 十 ' 八 ) 23:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice find, I went ahead and changed the titles. For now, it's the best we've got. A less 'silly' seeming reference would probably be better, but I'm sure the titles are consistant in other official products somehwhere.--SeizureDog 04:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Renaming (yet again)
Look, this has gone on long enough. It's Haruhi Suzumiya. Not Suzumiya Haruhi. Maybe it is, correctly, ordered Suzumiya Haruhi in Japan (although I have yet to see any proof of "Suzumiya Haruhi" being written using the Latin alphabet in any official Japanese Haruhi-related work), but this is the English language Wikipedia, and Japanese names (of people born on or after 1868) should be presented in Western order, or "the official trade name" or "the form publicly used on behalf of the person in the English-speaking world" (c.f. Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)). Even if one were to argue that although Haruhi's name is only officially ordered "Haruhi Suzumiya" in Kadokawa/Bandai's USA release and NOT the Japanese original, Haruhi's name is written in Western order on her character CD - an official Japanese work - which is reasonable evidence to prove that Haruhi Suzumiya is the official trade form of the character's name (unless there is proof otherwise). Therefore, as the series itself is named after this character, the name of the article should be Haruhi Suzumiya (series). Or, even better, Haruhi Suzumiya (light novel series), to emphasise the fact that the article is about the light novels and not the anime or radio dramas. By all means, use Suzumiya Haruhi within the Nihongo template, but Haruhi Suzumiya is the correct form used in almost every translation thus far, and is the form used throughout Wikipedia - except in the title of this article. For sheer consistence with the rest of Wikipedia, at the very least, this is one of the reasons why this article name must be changed. Thank you for your time. --Ppk01 23:01, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

PAGE NOT MOVED -- as there was no consensus for the move per discussion below. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Suzumiya Haruhi (series) → Haruhi Suzumiya (light novel series) — To conform with the Japanese Manual of Style and the rest of Wikipedia (which uses Haruhi Suzumiya in place of Suzumiya Haruhi), and to distinguish the focus of the article (as opposed to the anime or audio dramas). Please see my above post for more. Ppk01 23:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add  # Support   or   # Oppose   on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~ .  Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Survey - in support of the move

 * 1) Weak Support: While this isn't exactly a requested move as the article you want to move it to is not made yet, I suppose it makes sense to take a pool to see who agrees and disagrees. While you do have a point about the Haruhi Suzumiya naming order, I am still partial to add simply (series) at the end rather than (light novel series), or at the very least have it be (light novel) or just plain (novel), though this last option may be technically incorrect in the long scheme of things. So while I do agree that the name order should be in given name-surname order, the designation after the name should be further discussed until we can reach a consensus. On a related note, the convention at WP:ANIME states that for an anime use {anime); for a manga use (manga); so it would seem logical to use (light novel) or simply (novel) for this article's designation. -- (' 十 ' 八 ) 01:11, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Strong support name flopping, but oppose the proposed article space. I prefer Haruhi Suzumiya (series) with a secondary preference to Haruhi Suzumiya (light novels) (in the plural; remember that 'manga' and 'anime' can be plural, 'novel' is singular and this clearly covers more than one). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SeizureDog (talk • contribs) 04:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Survey - in opposition to the move

 * 1) Weak Oppose this is a character, not a person, and it hasn't been released in English. The MOS:Japanese Names focuses on real people. As a fictional work, it should appear as that which most commonly appears on the English language fan sites, or Suzumiya Haruhi. (check BitTorrents, etc for various Suzumiya Haruhi links) 70.51.8.159 04:47, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments:

In response to Juhachi (十八), the fact that the article focuses on the entire series of light novels requires the use of 'series' in the article title. Another option, however, would be to split this article up into eight separate articles, one for each novel. (The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (light novel), The Sighs of Haruhi Suzumiya etc.) After all, we currently have one article covering both the anime and the novel; wouldn't it be best to transfer the information pertaining to the first novel into its own article (seeing as The Sighs already has its own article)? --Ppk01 10:01, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with your points. As I tried to say above, there are designations for (anime) and (manga), not (anime series) and (manga series) even though these are indeed series'. In this respect, the word "series" should not be included within the parenthesis to assist in the designation of the article. A simple (light novel) or (light novels) would suffice and be more consistent. Additionally, I don't think there's going to be enough pertinant information to create 8 (soon to be 9) separate articles on the light novels. For one, only 2 of the novels have articles right now, and there's no reason to create a bunch of stub articles just for the hell of it. If anything, once more than 50% of the novels have articles, I believe they should be merged into a List of Haruhi Suzumiya light novels article.


 * Moreover, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is for all incarnations of products with that exact title, so thus the light novel, which is the source material, has to be explained in that article. Yes, article splits can happen, but when there isn't really enough information to go and create a The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (light novel) article, it's just not viable to do so. The same goes for a The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (manga) (which is at the moment a redirect page) article and a The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (anime) article. I actually disagree with the creation of The Sighs of Haruhi Suzumiya, though it was bound to happen some day, and in time the other articles will be created too, but we'll cross that bridge when it happens.-- (' 十 ' 八 ) 10:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I have discounted the IP address in the survey. This is not an easy one to decide but AFAICT there is no consensus to move the article to "Haruhi Suzumiya (light novel series)" because of objections to the word "series". Two of the three conributers to the discussion seem willing to have the page moved to Haruhi Suzumiya (light novel) or Haruhi Suzumiya (light novels) which is what I suggest that Ppk01 moves the article to if this name is less acceptable to him/her. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:52, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Renaming debate continues
Given the circumstances, the "series" does seem unnecessary, doesn't it? I had originally thought to put "series" in the title to match with "TV series", but in this case, I agree that Haruhi Suzumiya (light novels) would be better. --Ppk01 14:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I also agree that the article should be renamed to Haruhi Suzumiya (light novels), and as such, I created the Shakugan no Shana (light novels) article that reflects my opinion on the matter.-- (' 十 ' 八 ) 21:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree as well. Since User:Philip Baird Shearer stated that he discounted the IP before, this makes for complete consensus of those who took part in the survey, so I'm going to go ahead and move the article to Haruhi Suzumiya (light novels). Hopefully, this can be the end of it.--SeizureDog 10:31, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Article needs "Reception"
I find it strange how there's no mention of how incredibly popular this series is in Japan. From what I've seen, it's about as crazy as Harry Potter. I don't know where to go about citing for this though.--SeizureDog 07:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I second that request. —OneofThem(talk) (contribs) 01:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't have time to add anything now, but this article: http://www.mainichi-msn.co.jp/entertainment/manga/manganews/news/20070505org00m200004000c.html talks about it selling Vagabond numbers, with the new volume alone selling an estimated minimum of 200,000 copies -- with 20 or 50 thou considered a hit for a light novel. Doceirias 03:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikiproject?
I made a proposal to make Haruhi into a wikiproject at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Haruhi_Suzumiya If you think you would be interested in it, or if you think it could be a good idea, please sign up. I'm just trying to get an early estimate to see if it stands a chance. Sbloemeke 22:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)