Talk:Harvard Business School/Archives/2020

Harvard Business School alumni
This may need a larger discussion, but who should have the category Harvard Business School alumni added their pages? Is it simply those that have completed a degree (MBA, DBA, etc)? Would it also include those that HBS considers a part of their alumni network and eligible for alumni awards, like those that complete the Advanced Management Program (AMP), Owner/President Management , etc? Or would it be anyone who completes a class at the school even if Harvard doesn't consider them alumni of the institution, like this this one, and there are many? Thanks! Patken4 (talk) 11:07, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:ALUMNI says to include all alumni regardless of how much time they attended and that graduation is not required. While that guidance is for inclusion in alumni lists for schools I think it could be used here. Gab4gab (talk) 12:12, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
 * That is only an essay about school alumni, and not a Wikipedia policy or guideline. Just because HBS allows people who have paid $73,000 for the 6-week AMP to consider themselves part of the "alumni network", it does not mean that we should include them in our alumni category. And note the careful wording that HBS have chosen - they are not saying that people who have attended a 6-week course actually are HBS alumni! Edwardx (talk) 20:57, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I updated the list of alumni to include those who are HBS MBA professors. Not all of them have pages yet, if anyone can make any. I started to update the existing ones while having a slow patch at work, but many need more work than one man has time to do, if anyone else is also interested... https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/browse.aspx?topic=leadership Thank you. 98.231.241.215 (talk) 21:12, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
 * What is the verdict on people who have dropped out of colleges in that case? Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Mukesh Ambani are all drop outs of big universities. What happens to them on Wikipedia? If a university has you on their alumni list, shouldn't that be good enough?Nuttyprofessor2016 (talk) 21:17, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I have added a section "Advanced Management Program (AMP)" to the HBS article. I trust we can all agree that as there are "no formal educational requirements" and no assessment during or after the course, that attendance of this 6/7 week $82,000 course, we should NOT be adding attendees to Category: Harvard Business School alumni. Edwardx (talk) 12:31, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed, adding AMP attendees to the alumni category might mislead readers into thinking that they have a degree from HBS. Philafrenzy (talk) 11:04, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I noticed that Harvard University has been removed from Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg and I just want to point out that they have been conferred with honorary degrees/doctorates from Harvard and were drop outs from degree courses, I think it should be reinstated with "dropped out" ahead of their alma mater. Any thoughts? Nuttyprofessor2016 (talk) 10:24, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * When you say "removed", there is plenty in the body text, so are you referring to the infobox or the categories? There has been discussion at Talk:Mark_Zuckerberg/Archive_1. My search for "Harvard" in the Bill Gates talkpage archive does not appear to turn up anything relevant. Gates did two full years at Harvard, Zuckerberg dropped out in his second year. In my view, the Education field in the infobox could include something like "Harvard University/College (withdrew/dropped out)", but they should definitely NOT be added to the alumni category. Of course, honorary degree/doctorate recipients are NOT alumni. Edwardx (talk) 11:28, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * This 2016 BBC article Smart ways to get Harvard on your CV (resume) gives a wider view of the AMP, "an experience that more closely mimics the MBA degree, with the opportunity to develop closer friendships and almost full access to university alumni minus the rigorous admissions process". Edwardx (talk) 11:50, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Edwardx - Ok so I get the drift that Wikipedia won't allow dropouts/executive education alumni level courses to be displayed in Infobox. That's fine. So I'll edit accordingly. There is a note on Bill Gates' page about education and alma mater so I didn't want to touch it but my only concern is that Wikipedia is orphaning these people of their education while the universities stand by them. That seems odd but maybe there is a strategy among you guys. Fully appreciate that. Questions answered. The articles provide such information and that's informative enough. Nuttyprofessor2016 (talk) 11:58, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Nuttyprofessor2016. All Wikipedia policies evolve through reasoned consensus, and if editors can make a good case for changing a rule, that rule can change. Wikipedia does not have to follow the rules or guidelines of any other institution. I am confident that Harvard are quite happy with the publicity they get from everyone knowing that Gates and Zuckerberg left without finishing their degrees, and that it has a positive rather than negative effect on applicant numbers.
 * HBS and other top business schools tread a careful line between increasing income and not devaluing their core offering, the two-year full-time MBA. As well as the BBC article, this one from CBS Why Harvard, Stanford & Tuck Shun the Executive MBA gives further insight into the approaches taken. Edwardx (talk) 13:02, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Edwardx - Every article is a journalist's view. I think Exec. MBA is amazing for working professionals and people with children. Some Universities don't have it while some like Wharton, LBS, Oxford, Cambridge, MIT have it. There are rankings for Exec. MBA. Nuttyprofessor2016 (talk) 10:35, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Edwardx See link - > FT Exec MBA Rankings 2018 Nuttyprofessor2016 (talk) 10:42, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Edwardx All Executive MBA people get a MBA degree, which similar to full time degree holders. Sometimes, like in Ox. and Cam., full time MBA is 1 year long while Exec.MBA is 2 years long.Nuttyprofessor2016 (talk) 10:47, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Articles written by journalists and published in reliable sources are based on research and evidence, and will usually be corrected if the source is informed of any inaccuracy - that is why Wikipedia editors should only create content based on reliable sources. As for Executive MBAs, HBS have never offered such a programme as they want to maintain a clear demarcation between their two-year full-time MBA and "executive education" programs such as the AMP and OPM. Edwardx (talk) 10:20, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
 * There is a difference between Executive MBA and Executive Education. Nuttyprofessor2016 (talk) 10:53, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
 * It appears that HBS's own publications are the reason behind the general confusion that results in AMP students being added to HBS alumni lists, making this an on-going challenge. Looking here, for instance, one would likely be inclined to accept the individual as an alumni. AHampton (talk) 21:42, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
 * HBS want to maximise income from executive education programs without devaluing their core product, the two-year full-time MBA. All sorts of brands face such difficult balancing acts.  And with the AMP costing $82,000 for 6-7 weeks, they want attendees to feel good about themselves.  Plus Ratan Tata's AMP attendance did lead to a $50 million donation... Edwardx (talk) 22:14, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Here is a list of HBS Alumni Achievement Award winners. It includes alumni from who took the OPM and AMP.  Where is the Wiki guideline or policy saying people who complete the coursework shouldn't be included in the HBS alumni category?  HBS sure seems to be treating them as alumni.  Patken4 (talk) 22:10, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
 * OPM and AMP have course durations in the 6-9 week range. In both cases, there are "no formal educational requirements" and no assessment, merely attendance. HBS use phrases such as "you will become a lifetime member of the HBS alumni community", rather than saying that attendees can call themselves HBS alumni. It is up to us as Wikipedia editors to decide the criteria for . Edwardx (talk) 22:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't see the importance of what phrase the school uses to refer to people that complete the course. The question is are they or are they not alumni according to the school.  If someone wants to know why a certain individual has the category on their article, they can read the article and see how they earned it.  If it is AMP, MBA, DBA, OPM, etc, they can read more about that at the HBS article.  My guess this is probably bigger than just HBS.  Yale also has a similar program.  Patken4 (talk) 22:34, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Patken4. This issue is far bigger than just HBS. Most business schools offer a range of "executive education" programs. Once I finish going through the "Notable alumni" listed in this article, I will consider looking at other Wikipedia business school articles.
 * Even if we were to include AMP and OPM attendees in "Category:Harvard Business School alumni" (and we certainly should not), it fast becomes a slippery slope. What if HBS let anyone who had attended a day's course to join some sort of "alumni community", should we be including them in our category? Of course not. Through discussion and consensus, Wikipedia's editors decide how we should demarcate a category, not HBS. Edwardx (talk) 11:43, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Edwardx, I agree with others more than you. Who is Wikipedia or others to decide who is an alum and not. It is up to the university. If Wikipedia wants to be so stuck up, then they should change the "alma mater" to some other category which is more useful. I strongly think it's the university that decides and Wikipedia cannot judge. It is, in fact, devaluing the university, the person and millions of others who will join these programmes later. Wikipedia may be an encyclopaedia of important people, and you take facts(and sometimes opinions) from press, then take it from universities also as it is a FACT that they are alums( including drop outs).Nuttyprofessor2016 (talk) 14:45, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * We need to consider what the reader would expect. I think they would reasonably assume that an HBS alumni was someone who had received a degree from there as that is what they are known for. I doubt readers would expect the category to include people who attended a short course with no admission requirements and no assessment at the end. I have been bold and created new categories of Harvard Business School Advanced Management Program attendees and Harvard Business School Owner President Management Program attendees. The second one could be abbreviated to OPM. Philafrenzy (talk) 16:55, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Shortened the second one to OPM. Philafrenzy (talk) 19:10, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * A sub-category could work, although are we categorizing too much? Two changes I would make to the name are adding alumni in place of attendee and combining both categories into one.  So Harvard Business School Executive Education alumni.  Patken4 (talk) 17:16, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * If we include Alumni were are suggesting to most people that they earned a qualification when we know that there are no admission requirements for these courses, apart from money, and no assessments. I think Attendee is a reasonable compromise. Philafrenzy (talk) 17:21, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Alumni means you attended a class. This is a class.  Patken4 (talk) 17:23, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Indeed, and that is the higher category, but to the reader I think it means attended a class, took an examination and got a qualification, particularly in the case of HBS which has one world-famous qualification. One wonders why they would risk the reputation of their core offering in fact, even for fees as large as these. Philafrenzy (talk) 17:29, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The reader can go read more at the HBS article if they want to know about the qualifications of the courses. We've separated these articles from those that received a MBA or DBA with the sub-category so the readers don't think they received a degree from the institution.  Harvard refers to these people as alumni.  We should probably follow the same convention.  Considering Harvard has offered the courses for almost 75 years, I don't think they think they are cheapening the school or alumni groups by allowing those that complete some Executive Education courses to call themselves "Harvard Alumni".  Patken4 (talk) 17:41, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * HBS do not explicitly refer to AMP, OPM and other executive education attendees as "alumni". HBS use phrases such as "you will become a lifetime member of the HBS alumni community" and "alumni network". Edwardx (talk) 18:49, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * So that means they are, you are saying it yourself. Why are you so against people putting up their university affiliations? Nuttyprofessor2016 (talk) 19:10, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I hope you don't mind me asking Nuttyprofessor, but have you attended one of those courses or are you acting for someone who has? Philafrenzy (talk) 19:21, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * So they are eligible to win Alumni Achievement Awards, be HBS Alumni Club chapter presidents, be featured in the alumni magazine, be featured on the HBS Alumni Network podcast, and get access to all the other benefits of being an alumnus of HBS that other alumni receive, but they aren't officially alumni? This sounds like a distinction without a difference.  Patken4 (talk) 22:10, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * It is HBS who have chosen to muddy the waters by saying that those that attend short courses for which there are no admission requirements (apart from wealth), and which are not assessed by any examination, may call themselves alumni. Does anyone ever fail one of those courses? Philafrenzy (talk) 11:53, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Philafrenzy, No I haven't but I understand university systems well. The only sense this debate is making to me is that Wikipedia is trying to set its own standards and that is not good. An alumni is usually anyone who the university says they are, not Wikipedia. People will just disregard it slowly if it makes it's own rules. I hope better sense prevails. Nuttyprofessor2016 (talk) 11:15, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you acting on behalf of someone who has attended one of those courses? Philafrenzy (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not! I am a free editor and enjoy it as a hobby. I strongly feel that if a University has people on their alum network, then the site has no business to interfere with that. These people interact with their universities and their wide array of network, contribute greatly sometimes and are passionate about their colleges, so why should wikipedia interfere with their info boxes, they have no business to do that. It seems like a very conservative approach and education has taken new forms. Nuttyprofessor2016 (talk) 11:52, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

I have removed the alumni list entirely in favor of linking to Category:Harvard Business School alumni. Wikipedia has articles on over 2,000 HBS alumni; listing all on this page is obviously infeasible, while a curated list would be nearly impossible to maintain to any consistent standard. The confusing definitions of "alumni", as discussed at length above, make an alumni list even less valuable. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 09:37, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I have reverted the removal of the alumni list. Other similar institutions have them, this one is well-cited, and no policy -based argument has been made. Edwardx (talk) 16:40, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * You have not addressed any of the issues that I listed above. Additionally, the list in its current state is fully half the article size - a clear violation of WP:UNDUE. Because of the number of alumni with articles, I do not believe that it is possible to have a reasonable curated list of an appropriate length. Note that many large universities (ex. Ohio State University) have entirely separate alumni lists. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 18:51, 6 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Then why not suggest creating a separate alumni list in the first place? Surely that would have been the more constructive approach. I for one would support such a proposal. Edwardx (talk) 09:16, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * My opinion is that alumni lists should not be included in Wikipedia, period. Too much difficulty in curation, too much potential for spam, too many universities looking to use it as free advertising. Even a separate list here would have the problem that 2,000+ entries is too large for any article, and attempting to curate it would be a massive task. How do you propose to solve that? Pi.1415926535 (talk) 21:16, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I have already "curated" it, ensuring that every entry is well-cited, and will continue to monitor any changes. Edwardx (talk) 18:54, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Alumni section is way too long
The alumni section of this article is way too long and desperately needs to be broken off into a separate list article with a few prominent examples also included in this article. We'll provide a hefty raise to any Wikipedia editor who does this. ElKevbo (talk) 22:08, 25 October 2020 (UTC)