Talk:Harvard College social clubs/Archive 1

Isis Club
i removed the ext. link for the isis club. the link went to some guys pdf resume. didnt look like a joke resume or anything but it sure wasnt isis.

Lampoon-written
The article appears to have been written by the Harvard Lampoon, the highly exclusive and insular social club that occasionally deigns to release trite and stale mini-magazines.

Unfortunately I am not in a position to re-write the article.

Even if written with comedic intent, the article is ill informed. It does contains some facts but, inter alia, grossly exaggerates the influence of the final clubs (note the correct placement of the "s"). Final club membership is about 2.5% of the entire student body, men and women. Though a pleasant passtime to their members, clubs are irrelevant to non-members' college experiences.

The preceeding three comments seem inappropriate, being unsubstantiated and intended, perhaps, to undermine the credibility of the article. Also, they address a much earlier version of the article than the displayed at present. - anon 17:40, March 11, 2006

Yes, the clubs are easy to ridicule, and they deserve it as a vestige of the social strictures of days long gone. An escape from daily life, yes, a throwback to The Great Gatsby and before, also yes, but an evil empire, no.

None has living facilities or provides any kind of immunity from the police or college authorites.

Do the clubs breed a certain condescension? As a graduate member of one of them, I am in a position categorically to state that any wretch who suggests that final club members feel they are superior is a cad, a churl, a blaggard, and not a gentleman. (See, I made a funny! But I really was a member of a club as an undergraduate, and the article really is inaccurate.)

- Good enough for me! If a former member doesn't think that the club breed arrogance, it must be true.

--ubopp 20:49, July 31, 2005 (UTC)

Final or finals?
Someone just edited the page back to use the term "finals clubs" instead of "final clubs." As I understand it, the historical basis for the name is that Harvard used to have a variety of clubs for freshmen, sophomores, juniors, and seniors, with students of different years being in different clubs, and the "final clubs" were so named because they were the last social club a person could join before graduation. (This is no longer the case; most of the other clubs no longer exist.) Note that the Harvard student handbook uses the term "final club":
 * While fraternities and sororities may be recognized officially at other universities and in local towns, they are not permitted to conduct any activity at Harvard even though their activities involve Harvard undergraduates. This policy also applies to the "final clubs" in Cambridge.

And so does the Harvard Crimson (see, for examples).

So if someone can substantiate that these clubs should be called "finals clubs", I would appreciate them doing so. Otherwise, I'm going to change it back to "final clubs". --Metropolitan90 02:52, September 9, 2005 (UTC)


 * Both terms are correct and should be mentioned in the article. See, for instance,, , and for usage of "finals club" in the Crimson. &mdash;Lowellian (reply) 20:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * "Final clubs' is correct, pace the Harvard Crimson. --Wetman 09:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Materials in the Public Record
I suspect that architectural drawings of almost all the clubs, particularly those such as the Porc and the AD that have been designated as important buildings by the Cambridge Historical Commission may be freely availible, though perhaps not online. Moreover, information regarding the Massachusetts Commission Against Discrimination's dealings with the Fly Club in the 1990's are also likely to be accessible. Given the paucity of detailed information on these clubs, it might be interesting and worthwhile to look into this material. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.12.195.5 (talk &bull; contribs) 21:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Other information
There is a substancial body of information in the online archives of the Harvard Crimson (perhaps a hundred pages worth) that ought to be incorporated into this article. See for example any of the pages Here

Separate articles for individual clubs
Does each club really need its own page? All they seem to be are bragging places for a club to list its alumni. If no one squawks soon, I'm making them all redirect here. -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 07:31, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Citing, Controversy section
The Ted Kennedy bit at the end's alright, but the rest of it screams Original Research. -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 05:46, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Not so. Almost every fact in this article is reflected in the archives of the Harvard Crimson and Independent. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.12.195.5 (talk &bull; contribs) 21:34, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Then cite it. -- Thesquire (talk - contribs) 05:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Rumor and lack of verification
I have a problem with the following portion of the text:

"The Bee Club rents a space in a what is rumored to be property owned by The Fly Club (45 Dunster St)."

The information stated on this sentence is based on rumors and therefore isn't verified and probably isn't objective. I suggest that it should be removed from the article until someone verifies that claim. --Mecanismo | Talk 16:30, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Final club and finals club
Right the first time. Wrong the second, a confusion perhaps with the exams called "finals". "Final clubs" are "final" in the sense that Hasty Pudding is a "waiting club". --Wetman 11:10, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Seneca Club
All mention of the women's "Seneca Club" has been anonymously deleted. --Wetman 09:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Errors

 * "Most of the final clubs do not provide housing to their members" None may.
 * (National affiliations) "other remnants remain as well" Meaningless, if not incorrect.
 * "Long affiliated with and supported by Harvard" Never supported. --Wetman 08:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Deleted all mention of "Unicorn club". No such final club exists. Galleon1388 05:43, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

rewrite urgently needed
This article is incredibly poorly written - I'd like to believe that it's satire as someone up above suggested, but I have my doubts. The piece basically needs to be rewritten or removed altogether. Not unlike the clubs themselves. Tvoz | talk 23:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

what?
This article doesn't even give a proper definition about what a Final Club is or does. This article defiantly needs to be re-written by somebody that knows the subject matter. Dreammaker182 (talk) 22:20, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Who cares if you know the subject matter - just put something in there and someone always gets pissed off enough to fix it. I just added 'origins' and did a straight cut and paste from the discussion above, now watch it grow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pagingmrherman (talk • contribs) 01:33, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

inclusion of various fraternities
Please read WP:V. Can you provide a citation for your edit? Thanks, UW Dawgs (talk) 00:42, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

unsourced content and cleanup
This article has been tagged with Template:Refimprove since March 2011. Five years. Under Verifiability, how do you propose that we correct this? Cheers, UW Dawgs (talk) 01:16, 10 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The # of years doesn't matter. As I stated in my edit summary ,
 * the test for removal of unsourced material (outside BLP) is your genuine belief there's no RS for it
 * and this is backed up by WP:V:
 * When tagging or removing material for lacking an inline citation, please state your concern that it may not be possible to find a published reliable source for the content, and therefore it may not be verifiable.
 * In other words, material need not be verified, merely verifiable.


 * So, do you have a genuine concern that it won't be possible to find an RS for this material? Because if you know anything about the subject, you'll know this kind of thing has been extensively discussed both in sources internal to Harvard and in external sources regarding Harvard. Or, if you don't know anything about the subject, what then is the basis for your "concern that it may not be possible to find a published reliable source"? Without doubt this material will be found, though not without some sifting, in one or more of the 1000+ results you get by searching harvard final club and harvard final clubs here, or the zillions of results (just counting books, even) here .  E Eng  02:03, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * WP:PROVEIT, please. UW Dawgs (talk) 04:05, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Again, do you have a genuine concern that it won't be possible to find an RS for this material, as called for by the policy you're linking? (Contrary to what you imply, what you removed has been in the article only since February 2016.) Or do you plan to insist on its removal just because you can? I personally have little interest in developing this article, but others may, especially given the increased attention the subject is now receiving. This is exactly the wrong time to remove uncontroversial material which only needs an interested editor to add sources (plus a good copyeditor).  E Eng  09:51, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, WP:PROVEIT says in bold:
 * "All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution."


 * Since you have now affirmatively stated you have little interest in developing this article and did not add citations upon your restore of the removed sections, that unsourced content has been re-removed. It can be re-added by any editor if/when citations are included. UW Dawgs (talk) 14:53, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

But, as now pointed out for the third time, BURDEN applies after another editor, in good faith, states a concern as to whether appropriate sources exist. You've refused to do that, so it appears that (as predicted) you're set on demanding removal simply because you can. Good work, and you can now move on to "improving" another article.

For those more interested in improving the article than in mindless removal, here's the removed material:";Punch process

Each fall the clubs hold "punch season," during which select sophomores are invited to a series of social events. Being "punched" refers to receiving an invitation to the first punch event. Once the punch process has begun, the verb "to punch" can also refer to a prospective member's attending the clubs' events, e.g. "Is he really punching both the Delphic and A.D.?" After each event, more likely prospective members, or "punches", are invited back.

The male punch process generally has four rounds. The first round is a meet and greet at the final club. Punches must make an impression on current members of the club in order to make it to the next round. The second round is an outing to an alternate location. The location will most likely be in an alumni-owned estate in the New England area or in a hotel in New York City. The third round is a date event, in which punches bring a date to the final club. Their continuation to the next round partially depends on how attractive their date is. The final round is called the final dinner. Punches who make it to this round have been admitted into the club. The final decision is made by both members of the club and the alumni board. The female punch process is fairly the same as the male punch process. There is an informal round included that is centered around coffee dates between punches and current members. After the last event, called a "final dinner", each club elects 10–30 new members who then choose among the clubs they have been asked to join.

The punch process varies by club. Each punch is led by the "Punch Master" of the club. Around 100-200 sophomores are punched with 14-22 males initiated into the club. Sophomores and juniors are chosen to be punched based on their social connections and background. Usually being a member of the Crimson Key Society, Hasty Pudding Social Club or various debate societies will guarantee that you are punched in the Fall. The Crimson Key Society is a social campus organization that leads tours, answers questions, and hosts events for incoming freshmen. The Hasty Pudding Social Club is a social club for freshmen. There are three parts to the Hasty Pudding, all housed in the same building: the theatricals, the band, and the social club. A small number of freshmen are inducted in the fall and a larger number of freshmen, called "neophytes", are inducted in the spring.


 * Membership and structure

The clubs have an undergraduate membership of around forty apiece, amounting to over 10% of the eligible male undergraduates, and 5% of eligible female undergraduates. The clubs have varying entrance restrictions for guests. Some final clubs often hold parties and open their doors to women guests and male guests of members. Others, like the A.D., have only in recent history opened their doors to female guests of members and still do not allow male guests. Others rarely welcome non-members. The Porcellian does not allow non-members past "the bicycle room" in the building's foyer; the Delphic and Owl permit their guests access only to their basements or courtyards through separate entrances; the Fox has a basement room with a separate entrance for guests; The Phoenix-S.K. allows guests access to their dining room, courtyard, and, on special occasions, their lounge, through a non-members' entrance. Final clubs charge members a semesterly fee for membership. There is financial aid available at some clubs.

Similar to most other college organizations, there is a president, vice president, secretary, treasurer, and alumni chair. Unique to final clubs, there is a punch master, who is responsible for planning and executing the social events of the punch process. These positions are elected by membership of the club. Alumni boards have a large influence over the club and are involved in every significant decision that the club makes. Within the club, new punches are assigned older mentors to guide them in the club during initiation. These mentors are referred to as different names in each club. This structure does form a familial like structures with upperclassmen that mimics a fraternity or sorority.


 * Traditions

There are a variety of traditions associated with each club. These traditions are passed on institutionally and there is no public record of their occurrence. Final clubs are notorious for playing a large role in the social scene at Harvard College. One infamous party of the PSK is called "Inferno", and members of the Patriots football team are rumored to attend each year during Super Bowl season. The Spee has a party called "Eurotrash", which caught a lot of flack because of the cultural insensitivity of the party.

Hazing has been an important part of each initiation process for new punches. Hazing for the final clubs is less about harassing new members and more about enabling their members to identify with the organization publicly. Final clubs usually have their members do a comedic or odd task. For instance, female final club members may wear exaggerated make-up to classes or male final club members may have to wear costumes for a month. The PSK's hazing process usually involves the "Shuttle Boy" task, where new members must stay on the campus shuttle for several hours, doing something ridiculous.

The most exclusive club, the Porcellian, has some interesting traditions. At every dinner at the PC, there will be a dead boar at the center of the table because the boar is the mascot of the PC. Additionally, the PC has a reverse initiation for the fall semester where the new class initiates and pulls pranks on the juniors and seniors. The Spee is known for visiting Oxford University and eating with their social club every one or two years."

 E Eng  15:17, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Bee Club found in 1991
The Bee Club's existence is already established by three citations. The second citation (now) does a fine job of confirming a 1991 establishment date is correct, and allows the 1981 citation to be removed as incorrect, as noted. However, please quote within this third (redundant) citation where 1991 is referenced as the founding date. Otherwise this citation doesn't state 1991, fails verification, and should be removed. UW Dawgs (talk) 15:22, 11 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Sources don't "fail verification" -- statements in articles do. The quote I gave in my edit summary relates that "in the late 1980s" women felt a need for a club of their own, and subsequently founded the Bee Club. Since doubt was raised as to whether a source giving "1981", versus those giving "1991", should be believed, this adds to the evidence making it clear that 1981 is erroneous. Anything that helps the reader-in-doubt to confirm in his own mind that article's statement is correct is usefully included.  E  Eng  16:31, 11 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Already stipulated and cited. Now, what content in this citation supports 1991? UW Dawgs (talk) 16:34, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Your "stipulation" doesn't help future editors and readers steer clear of making the same mistake you did. The source doesn't state 1991 directly, but supports the correct choice in the binary decision between 1981 and 1991. In normal editing situations none of this would be necessary, but since you obsess on the obvious, the uncontentious, and the non-substantive, it seems wise in this case.  E Eng  16:48, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks...
...to the IP currently doing the heavy lifting to clean up the mechanics of the cites and so on.  E Eng  21:04, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

DU Club location
I have been in the Harvard Square are since 1983 and seem to remember the DU being the club above J. Press. I do not recall the current Fly Club being the DU during that period of time. Is that an error in the current text or am I confused.RichardBond (talk) 19:30, 20 May 2016 (UTC) RichardBond (talk) 19:30, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Lawsuit
Proposed Changes to update the lawsuit information (needs to be formatted properly): Delete last line and replace with: In August of 2019, a federal district court held that the Harvard policy regarding student membership in single-sex clubs likely violated federal law Title IX's prohibition against associational discrimination based on sex. The court granted the plaintiff's motion for a preliminary injunction. (Kappa Alpha Theta Fraternity et al v. Harvard University, 397 F. Supp. 3d 97 (D. Mass. 2019); https://casetext.com/case/kappa-alpha-theta-fraternity-inc-v-harvard-univ#:~:text=2019)-,holding%20that%20Title%20IX%20prohibited%20associational%20discrimination%20because%20%22courts%20in,the%20scope%20of%20Title%20IX.%22). The parties later entered into a confidential settlement and consented to dismissal of the case.

In 2020, the President of Harvard College announced that Harvard would no longer enforce its policy against single-sex social clubs. He said that University Counsel and others had determined that, by analogy, the U.S. Supreme Court's 2020 decision in Bostock v. Clayton County (590 U.S. ___ (2020)) meant that "the College will not be able to carry forward with the existing policy under the prevailing interpretation of federal law." https://www.harvard.edu/president/news/2020/policy-on-unrecognized-single-gender-social-organizations. Bostock determined that firing an individual based on perceived sexual orientation and transgender status is prohibited as sex discrimination under a parallel federal statute, Title VII. The Bostock Court reserved until later cases the questions of "sex-segregated bathrooms, locker rooms, and dress codes" or other aspects of Title IX" and also did not decide whether and how religious exemptions applied because the defendant who made such claims below "declined to seek [Supreme Court] review." Olliemae (talk) 16:56, 2 January 2021 (UTC)