Talk:Hastati

Name
There is no point to the name of the Hastati. They were named after the long spear "hasta" they originaly carried as main weapon, while they stood in the second line between the principes which (as the name clearly says formed the first line) an the triarii in the third line. The flanks were normaly covered by socii.--84.129.237.207 (talk) 15:48, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No the Principes stood in the second line, the hastati in front, look up the references in the article.-- Serviam  (talk)  14:03, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

some additions
Good articles. I just ran through your articles about the Triarii and the Hastati and will now read the ones about the Principes and Velites. Good work! Just don't get confused with the BC dates, 219 BC is 3rd century BC not 2nd. I also added to the use of the velites that their objective was to also throw the enemy line into confusion and in the Triarii article that they were sometimes used outside the battle. An additional reference could be made to the battle at Cynos Cepahlae, where they assaulted the back of the right wing of the Macedonian phalanx which was hard pressing the Romans in front of it while the first lines dealt with the still unformed left wing.

GK1973 (talk) 13:32, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, the century needs to be changed. I didn't revert the edit but some of the stuff in there isn't very clear, for example you replaced "lanes" wih "intervals", which isn't the right word really - though "large gaps at intervals" is the right usage; nearly every book I've read about the battle used the word "lanes", though one used "openings". "In an effort to throw the enemy line into disorder" - no doubt this is true but unsourced. Don't woryr htough it's only a simple matter of finding a reference. Also, Velites isn't one of my best articles, I wrote it when I was a "noob", and I had a new reviewer too. It could do with being reviewed again, though you inserted that there were 1,200 velties per legion. This is contradictary to the references in the article, and all my information. I have seen this figure in numerous places, though almost all were unreliable by wikipedia's standards.-- Serviam  (talk)  16:27, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for looking at my changes. I know that they were reverted, we had a discussion and everything is OK.

1. "lanes" is actually not the correct word. It is "intervals". I can quote you many works, especially military treatises ancient and modern, that use the word. "gaps" is also used but in a more informal way.

2. actually "to throw the enemy line into disorder or confusion" is the phrase used in historical translation as your "harass", which is exactly the same thing. They are complete synonyms when it comes to pitched battle for disorder and confusion are the point of harassing the enemy line. The ancient Greeks called this "thorivos" which means noise, confusion. This vocabulary is also used in all translations of ancient and medieval texts on the matter discussed.

3. As for the 1.200 Velites, this is actually also what John Warry, one of your sources gives and is also completely sourced by Polybius and all other historians. I am very inerested in where you found the 1.000 men number. We know that the number o the Velites, the Hastati and the Principes were 1.200 in a legion (double that for a complete legion) and could come up to 1.500 when in great need (this should also be added). I can give you sources for all of these and will tomorrow when I return home. I also think that futher on in the same article you also give this number for the Velites (1.200), so look into this again to be certain.

If your interest lies on these matters I can provide you with many primary and secondary sources. You should of course read Polybius, Frontinus, Vegetius and Livy, especially Polybius has a very detailed account on the legionary selection, if I am not mistaken, in his 15th book. This is a must read and a must quote, you will love it!

I will tomorrow be able to reoccupy myself with the changes I did earlier today. If you wish me to propose them first here and let you make any changes I have no problem!

thanks

GK1973 (talk) 21:14, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * 1. No either lanes or gaps is the correct word, intervals means something else completely.
 * According to wiktionary:
 * A distance in space. (eg. there were lamposts at intervals along the street)
 * A period of time. (eg. the man has a break at regular intervals throughout the day)
 * Ie. it would be correct to say "there were gaps at intervals along the line", but not "there were intervals along hte line"
 * 2. Yes that's true, they're the same thing exactly, and I'll say again I didn't revert it.
 * 3. I've read polybius, and seen the legionary selection bit, but I'm a bit hessitant to put that in here, in my opinion it belongs in an article about the army of the time as a whole, not just different troop types. I don't see John Warry anywhere. I got the velties figure from William Smith. Vegetius hasn't written anything about this period of Roman history, I've read all of his books. He wrote about the army around the time of Augustus. There are some interesting things in Livy.-- Serviam  (talk)  22:35, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Camillan Era equipment
I don't think the Hastati were armed with the Hastae in the Camillan era, rather the gladius. Is their a source for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.128.141.160 (talk) 19:44, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Leves
I've viewed multiple sources from this article, and related articles, and not one of them clearly states that there were 20 leves attached to the 60 hastati of a maniple. Rather, the 20 leves were part of the 60 hastati.


 * The Roman Army: A Social and Institutional History, page 90 (105)
 * Mentions 20 leves attached to the hastati maniple, but does not mention them being attached to 60 hastati.
 * Livy, book 8, chapter 8
 * Mentions one-third of the hastati being armed only with a spear and javelins (matching the description of the leves).
 * Dictionary of Greek and Roman antiquities, page 494
 * Also mentions one third of the hastati being only lightly armed.

Echo 48 (talk) 13:26, 29 July 2012 (UTC)