Talk:Hastings/Archive 2

Need for article rewrite
There is a need for contributors to this article to look at WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements*, I'm afraid. What has happened here is that this is just a series of statements win which there is often little to link into any obvious headings. A good example of that is the Buildings para, which goes from one time to another, when some of it at least is really History; Visitor attractions do the same thing. The latter para is much too tourist-oriented (the town's PR pages can do that much better!). The warning at the top about the extent of the article was mainly due to that huge list of "Notables", which I have removed to a separate article (as per the suggested layout *above).

Hastings is both a town and a borough, and the two areas are exactly the same - unlike eg Ashford, where the town and the borough are entirely different in scope. The article keeps confusing the two IMO - and then, to make it more confusing, has an entirely separate article about St-Leonards-on-Sea - which is not referred to in this article, even though it is a fairly long (though, like this one unreferenced) and comprehensive one. To most people the two towns are indissoluble, and a separate article breaks them apart. All those stubs which have arisen from this article (Maze Hill, Tressell et al) are absolutely unnecessary. They are only wards of the council, often given names which have little to do with a geographical area. I have rewritten that as table and removed all references to the stub articles, which I am going to merge with this one - except for Ore, Hollington, which were originally separate settlements before Hastings grew into them. Silverhill might even be considered the same: it was orginally just a road junction (still is of course) giving its name to that area.

Mention is made of the Steve Peak book - yet there are at least two statements made in the article which are flatly contradicted by the book: the destruction of part of the castle cliff was deliberate and not by the sea; and visitors were first coming to Hastings in the Georgian era, not the Victorian. And there is no mention whatsoever about smuggling - a serious moneyspinner before 1815.

Where are the references? There are quite few External links - which the ref* above says should rarely be used: they should be made references, and should certainly not just be listed without some reference in the article itself.

I should be grateful if I might be allowed to get some shape into this article before any further tinkering takes place - then you can tinker to your heart's content! Peter Shearan (talk) 16:18, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite
I am not suggesting that the large rewrite I have completed over the past week is by any means finished, but I do feel that it is immeasurably better than its predecessor! There is still much to be done of course:
 * Notes on areas (neighbourhoods, NOT suburbs in a town this size!)eg Clive Vale, Halton, Blacklands, Upper St Leonards (part of the Eversfield estate not the Burton bit)
 * Notes on industrial estates eg Ponswood, Hollington
 * Educational establishments

I have, in parallel with doing this article, taken the St Leonards-on-Sea article similarly in hand. The more I think about it the more I believe that there is no valid reason to have a separate article: the two places merged in practice at the end of the 19th century when the Co Borough was formed - why have we split them up again? And it would make it much more understandable to readers unfamiliar with the area. That, after all, is who we are writing for - not ourselves! Peter Shearan (talk) 07:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Logically, there would only be a st leonards article if this one is too big and needs splitting. How big would the hastings article be if all material was in this one place? See also the category hastings, where there are quite a number of articles about hastings, some more usefull than others. Sandpiper (talk) 23:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Also someone should take a look at the Ore and Bulverhythe articles which need more historical information such as the amsterdam. Blackwave...... (talk) 13:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal
There is a stub article Wishing Tree, Hastings. Someone proposed it should be merged into this one. I have sorted out the tags to point to a discussion, and would second the proposal. Sandpiper (talk) 23:27, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with the merge, although is there anything to merge! MortimerCat (talk) 23:56, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Sections in list format.
The sections that are just lists, ie Hastings in film and television, need to be turned into prose. Just stating the name is trivia, we should elaborate saying what part of Hastings can be seen, and where in the film. I removed the twin city list as it is duplicated in the infobox. However, I do suggest that too can be elaborated on, eg why Hastings is twinned, what events take place, etc. MortimerCat (talk) 12:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

MortimerCat (talk) 12:27, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Stub creep revisited.
I started to propose deletion the occasional ward stub, then realised there were more than I thought.

Bohemia, East Sussex, Baldslow, Castle, Central Hastings, Braybrooke, East Sussex, St Helens, East Sussex, Tressell, Baird, Hastings, Central St Leonards, Maze Hill, South St Leonards, Ashdown, North Hastings, Conquest, Hastings, Wishing Tree, Hastings, Please add to this list if I have missed any

Redirect pages:Baldslow, Conquest, Maze Hill, East Sussex, Maze hill, East Sussex, Ashdown, North St Leonards, Conquest, hastings, Conquest, East Sussex, Wishing Tree, East Sussex, Wishing Tree

These are the ones that basically say "This is an area of Hastings" and thats all. There are some other which have a bit more information and these would need to be handled on an individual basis. Most have merge templates but the information is already within the Hastings article.

Should we
 * Do nothing, ie leave them as stubs.
 * Redirect them to Hastings.
 * Create a bulk Article for Deletion

Your opinions please MortimerCat (talk) 23:29, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi there, I believe a bulk Article for Deletion should be created, as there is no need for any of the articles. I don't redirecting them will be much help, as it's extremely unlikely that someone will make a precise search for any one of the above articles. Sorry for replying long after your message has been left, but I haven't been on Wikipedia for a while and came back to notice the whole article has had a rewrite. Regards. The Menace (talk) 21:33, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Quick note, I added Hollington to the list. Regards. The Menace (talk) 21:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I excluded Hollington as it does have a bit of extra information with references. Plus its notable because I used to work there :) MortimerCat (talk) 21:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah okay, yeh makes sense really, my bad. The Menace (talk) 21:50, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I have long thought that there are far too many of these. They should probably all be deleted, after bringing back into the main article the few snippets of information that they contain. I don't even think that most of them are even worth keeping as redirects.--rossb (talk) 22:40, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * And what about Rock-a-Nore and Winkle Island? --rossb (talk) 22:45, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I was thinking those two articles, plus The Stade could possibly be merged into Hastings Old Town? The Menace (talk) 23:01, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

How about redirecting St Helens into OreBlackwave...... (talk) 11:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I apologise that I didn't look at this talk page before returning to the vexed question of all the stubs: I have begun to take some action, which can easily be reversed until a definite decisin is made. One point I would make, and this is a recently-discovered (by me!!) Wiki directive about writing about settlements WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements: it is really pretty comprehensive and isn't quite followed in this article. But I whoeheartedly agree with the comments here about the stubs - let's get rid of them - or at least those that don't add anything to the main article. The point made about St Leonards needs a little more thought, I suppose, although I think it could well be incorporated with care. Peter Shearan (talk) 17:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No one has objected to their deletion in the last two weeks, so I think we can go ahead deleting and/or merging. MortimerCat (talk) 18:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The first batch that Peter prod'd last week were deleted without fuss this morning, so I put a prod on the remaining ones. I have left the ones that have been converted to redirects for now. MortimerCat (talk) 06:48, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Hastings 1895
How come the tournament of 1895 isn't mentioned in this article? It's the only reason anyone says the name "Hastings" anymore. By the way, is it pronounced "Haystings" or "Hahstings"?
 * Haystings - Blackwave...... (talk) 17:13, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Three originaly separate settlements?
If it is refering to Hollington, Ore and St Leonards-on-Sea, shouldnt it mention Bulverhythe and Silverhill which actually have lots of info although are hardly (or never) mentioned in this article. FM  Talk to Me  Show Contributions 19:01, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

also On the lead section it says 'includes the satelite town of st leonards' or something like that. What does that that mean? On the lead section again it says 'is the administrative centre for the borough with the same name' Hastings town is the borough, unlike eg. Ashford or Lewes (see top section) FM 16:51, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Article too downbeat?
I feel the article presents too dismal a picture of the town, which does not reflect its vibrancy or beauty.

For example, in the 'landmarks' section, all but one of the landmarks mentioned are referred to in terms suggesting they are either dilapidated or demolished, or 'little remains' of them! East Cliff House, specifically, is described as having "deteriorated rapidly" when it is in fact a thriving seafront cafe.

The Demographics and Transport sections also give a very negative view of the town, with few references to the positive aspects of Hastings life. The demographic problems are confined to certain poorer areas of the town; although they may be statistically correct, they do not paint an accurate picture of life for the average Hastings resident. Also - no mention of Hastings' "Jack In The Green" celebration, which is the largest Mayday festival in Europe.

Overall, I felt the article (although well written & informative) reads as though it was written by someone who has become disillusioned with the town, and therefore is not a true reflection of Hastings life. Butcherscross (talk) 21:10, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There is also
 * no mention of being thhe 'Birthplace of Television' which is a major part in evolution
 * and really should ought to be mentioned.
 * Although the article has recently improved, the information does not explain much
 * and the article ought to be expanded. Blackwave...... (talk) 16:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Sorry to sound like an old grumpy sod, I hope I am far from that! But Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not some advert for people to post how amazing their hometown is. Like it or not, Hastings has seen much better days economically, socially and anything else that ends in an ally!! I think the article is good, as it shows in a neutral manner what Hastings is like. Regards. The Menace (talk) 16:40, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I mean about how John L. Baird invented the television. Blackwave...... (talk) 16:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

London Distance on Infobox
Blackwave...... (talk) 08:04, 17 May 2008 (UTC)I am sure this is the distance to the M25, wouldnt London be about 60 miles?


 * I make it 54 miles, but it all depends on where you decide to measure from. My sources Multimap measures Hastings from the A21-Bohemia Road (near the Falaise Hall) and the calculator at Bali & Indonesia on the Net locates London at Westminster Bridge. However, 46 miles is a bit short, it takes you just past Croydon, a London Borough perhaps, but I think the City of London would be a more useful reference point. MortimerCat (talk) 13:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Its 64.8 according to Google Maps. Blackwave...... (talk) 16:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Motto?
Doesnt the town have a motto? One was put there once but it was removed. FM  Talk to Me  Show Contributions 08:12, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've not come across a motto. The one that was removed was the motto of Hastings New Zealand rather than Hastings Sussex! --rossb (talk) 18:13, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Hastings
I don't think the term Hasting should direct to this pages. There are just too many towns and names and such to have it come to this English city. The term Hastings should direct to a disambiguation page 63.26.223.7 (talk) 04:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)eric
 * Disagree - this Hastings is far and away the best-known of all the Hastingses because of the historical importance of the town (it's not a city) and the battle. --rossb (talk) 17:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)