Talk:Hata clan/Archive 1

Oddities
Any naysayers want to explain why there are Hebrew loan words in Korean then? Why is father the same word in both languages? - Sparky (talk) 06:35, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

The Hata Clan - the People of Silk Cloth
The Hata clan had dresswear and customs that were unlike any to Japan and Korea of the time.

They were the fabled "People of Silk" who came from the Silk Road. The Hata clan are generations of descendants of the Silk Road traders who intermingled and crossbred with various peoples along the trade routes. Japanese history records them to have had a presence in Japan since B.C.E in regions of Shikoku. Some koreans claim that the Hata originates from Korea, but this is not likely so. The closest word to hata in korean is hat, which means 'cloth'. So even in Ancient Korea, the Hat people are known as the People of Cloth (presumably silk).

The japanese character for the Hata clan is the chinese character for Qin, the Emperor. This does not mean that the Hata clan were ONLY chinese and not descendants of Ancient Israelites, either. The evidence of the Yayoi period is internationally accepted evidence of ancient jewish influence. The dresswear, ornaments, rituals, Katakana alphabet and thousands of borrowed words from ancient hebrew are undisputed evidence of the Hata clan and the cultural significance it had on Japan. The Hata clan has been proven to not be of Korean origin but of a even greater number of generations prior of travelers that mingled with the peoples along the southern trade routes of the Silk Road. What is important to Japan is that the Hata clan eventually settled and rooted itself there to start a new clan of descendants who upheld the traditions and customs of the ancient israelites for hundreds of years to follow, lending to much of the beliefs of Shinto and japanese culture.

From a Japanese perspective, the Yayoi period 300BC marks a significant change in Japanese culture. Curiously, Yayoi pronounced with a phonetic slur sounds much like Ya-Yi. In hebrew, the word for Japan is Yapan. In hebrew, the word for Jewish is Yi. Is it merely a coincidence that the region which sparked the beginning of the Yayoi period coincides with the beliefs and customs of the ancient Israelites? Could the japanese girl name Yayoi have been an homage to her two nations?

TruthofLife (talk) 11:28, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Hata Clan's origin is Qin
Korean tabloid sources are not acceptable as reliable third party sources.

It is well established that the Chinese character read "Hata" according to one reading in Japanese is the character of the Chin (Qin) dynasty in China. It is also known that people from that dynasty emigrated to Korea and Japan, sometimes to Japan via Korea.

Stop vandalizing this page.Ubikwit (talk) 20:07, 18 November 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit
 * I've removed the reference you provided as it does not support your assertion. The reference does not exclude (or include or mention) the Hata.  Can you explain why you believe this reference backs up your assertion?  --HighKing (talk) 17:47, 23 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Are you claiming to have read the source?
 * The same source is quoted on the Japanese-Jewish Common Ancestor Theory article, and the second source is from the British Israelism page.
 * I have removed the name Hata from the edit, but that is somewhat irrelevant, as the entire Y-chromosome gene pool of Japan is different from that of Jews, as the two sources make clear.
 * There is no question that the science completely refutes all such false claims of genealogical connection to Jews through the mythical Ten Lost Tribes.
 * I will be editing these pages more extensively after having gone through a couple of related reference books I have recently ordered.
 * In the meantime, your edit would appear to be connected to an edit by Wikipedia editor Jon C.
 * Are you collaborating with that individual? --Ubikwit (talk) 18:12, 23 November 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit
 * Yes, I've read the source. Removing the name Hata from the edit doesn't fix the problem of you drawing a conclusion which is against policy - see WP:OR.  And yes, it seems that I was "collaborating" with JonC.  Just so you know, that's actually how you're meant to participate here.  You might like to try it some time.  My advice to you is to spend a little time here on Talk explaining your edits and you might find some basis for agreement down the line.  --HighKing (talk) 23:37, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Anachronistic notion of the "clan"?
It should be pointed out that clans no longer exist in Japan, and the preferred term by some scholars is actually "kinship groups", due to differences with Western "clans" in terms of sociology. The Hata clan per se long ago ceased to exist. That should be obvious from the discussion on the article page at present. Note that the latest reference in the article to use of the name "Hata" with respect to the clan describes what appears to be the last known incidence of an individual descended from that clan changing their name in 880 CE from Hata to Koremune, more than 1,100 years ago. Perhaps some of the contributors to this article are under the impression that the Hata are akin to the Pashtun tribe in Afghanistan, for example, but that is not the case. There is not separate and distinct "Hata clan" in Japan, and hasn't been since approximately 880 CE. There will never be any DNA studies on the Hata clan, because the clan hasn't existed for more than 1,100 years.--Ubikwit (talk) 22:15, 25 November 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

Edit
It was more comprehensive to simply include the reference with revision of the terminology, and since I had the time, I have contributed the aforementioned reference to Saeki.

Furthermore, note that there are no references to the Hata clan on the Japanese new religions page, which is also lacking in sources even with respect to the minuscule number of organizations embracing elements of Judiasm and/or Christianity.--Ubikwit (talk) 09:03, 26 November 2012 (UTC)Ubikiwit

Hata Clan: Korean clan from Shilla Kingdom.
1) How can Korean Prince be Chinese or Jewish?? 2) How can Baekje/Kudara ( Korean Kingdom) be Chinese or Jewish?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Commonsensepedia (talk • contribs) 09:54, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Truth 101: Geography: Israel and China distance and time from Japan. I really doubt Hata clan is Jewish or Chinese clan. Truth 101: Japan oldest recorded history " Nihon Shoki" was written, made, created by Baekje Kingdom immigrants. It states Hata clan came from Baekje Kingdom. Current day resource reveals Hata clan came from Shilla Kingdom. Geography Korean Peninsula is closer to Japan then China or Isreal. Truth 101: Even though during Meiji Period Japanese nationalist tried hard to erase all historical ties with Korean Peninsula. In reality they could not. Main reason Japanese cultural Identity is also Korean cultural identity. Taiwanese, Chinese, Jewish tried hard Hata clan is chinese or Jewish. In reality Hata clan reveals to be Korean clan from Shilla Kingdom.

................... Genetic studies show out of Africa Theory. In other words, long distance traveling is not impossible. Silk road and pre-silk road routes were traveled even before shang.

Hata Clan's origin is not Qin as originally thought
It's already proven by both Japanese & Korean scholars, Hata clan founder was immigrant from Silla their Shinto shrine still worship Silla god. http://www.ohmynews.com/NWS_Web/view/at_pg.aspx?CNTN_CD=A0000162010 --KSentry(talk) 04:08, 5 November 2011 (UTC) Jizi joseon was shang refugee forming country(gojoseon is same, error in dates). Before that there were hongshan etc. but it was more like villages and not country yet. Qin was refugee in korea and some probably become baekje before migrating to japan. Shang and Zhou(wu) refugee probably got to japan earlier. You should remember that refugee tend to scatter rather than move as whole group.

[|Silla] Korea rulers were Japanese. Japanese [|Hogong](duke bottle gourd)= park(gourd). kim = egg/box found by hogong. Seok = 1000 li north east of wa. http://www.ishtarsgate.com/forum/showthread.php?4776-Silla-Korea-rulers-were-Japanese Gaya http://www.ishtarsgate.com/forum/showthread.php?4784-Korea-Gaya-Origin Origin-of-East-Asian-Ruling-class http://www.ishtarsgate.com/forum/showthread.php?4777-Origin-of-East-Asian-Ruling-class --Real7777 (talk) 18:11, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Korea4one sockpuppets
Hata is Korean orgin. Hata clan has lived in Baekje Kingdom for many years. Hata Clan didn't cross over to Island of Japan. Hata clan migrated to Japan with 100 followers from Baekje Kingdoms. Korean connection with Japan is alot deeper then average non-Japanese such as ( Chinese and Jewish). Koreans migrating to Japan dates back from Jomon, Yayoi, Kofun, Asuka, Nara, Korean pottery war, WW.II. Nothing to do with Korean nationalism. Its a historical fact. Hata clan always have been Korean clan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Americanprofessor (talk • contribs) 02:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

If you want to distort history then please provide facts. Without facts please do not try to distort historical truth. Hata clan has no historical relationship with Jewish or Chinese. Hata clan connection with Paekje Kingdom is widely accepted by Japanese or Non-Japanese historians. You will probably see or hear the word " Kudara" in Kansai area alot more then Jewish connection or Chinese connection with Japan. Nothing to do with Korean nationalism. People should learn accurate history between Korea and Japan.

Hata clan, is Korean origin clan. Not Chinese or Jewish. Hata clan were Paekje immigrants. Hata clan also didn't pass Paekje kingdom from China. Hata clan has its immigrant origin from Korean Kingdom called Paekje ( Kudara in Japanese). Paekje means " land of 100 followers". Please leave out the Jewish or Chinese connections please.
 * I'm sorry, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a platform for Korean nationalism. Thus, we present a wide range of different theories which have been proffered. We have no responsibility to any one culture to protect their nationalistic notions of history. .. We have cited sources claiming the Jewish and Chinese connections. If you have a source to cite to prove that they were definitively from Baekche and not from anywhere else, please do share that with us. LordAmeth (talk) 21:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

No references have been provided on this dubious information regarding descent from "the Lost Tribes of Israel". In fact it says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kofun_era#Kofun_society, that the Hata clan were descended from Qin Shi Huang with references to its claim. --Darthanakin 10:26, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Did you miss my citation of Ikuro Teshima? It's right above the unreferenced tag. Teshima is by no means a reliable source, but I think this is sufficiently inferred in the "Shinshukyo and Common Origin Theory" section. I explained that "most serious scholars have not jumped to the conclusion..." and intentionally phrased it to indicate that these are all "claims" of individual writers. Certainly not a theory entertained by the mainstream of scholarship, I still think it's important to mention that some new religions and other strange philosophies are based around this sort of thing. It's like including conspiracy theories in an article on JFK's assassination - it doesn't have to be true or widely accepted to be interesting and important in its own way. LordAmeth 19:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry mate, didn't notice that. But still right at the beginning of the article, it seems to suggest that this Lost Tribes of Israel theory is prevalent without giving sources, especially this

''While some claim that the Hata were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel, others believe the tribe was more likely from the steppes of Turkestan, traveling to Japan not along the Silk Road, but as slave labor for the construction of the Great Wall of China. Both groups agree on Semitic origins of the Hata, theorizing that they brought Ancient Hebrew culture to Japan at a very early time in its cultural development.''
 * I find this highly ironic, given that Qin Shi Huang was the guy that had the wall built.--Darthanakin 16:02, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes yes, a very good point. Strange that references to Qin Shi Huang isn't even mentioned in the article; a major oversight on my part. Please do feel free to rephrase this as necessary; I shall leave myself a note to come back to this to add in information from other sources. LordAmeth 17:07, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

everyone new here whatever americanprofesor says is a lie because it has been proven he is a korean sockpuppet posing as an american to spread lies on how everything is korea.141.155.157.151 (talk) 03:10, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Japanese government and Wikipedia is suggesting that Baekje/ Kudara Kingdom is Korean Kingdom but Koreans are Jewish or Chinese??? So Jewish and Chinese are Korean origin??? Hata clan is Korean clan from Paekje Kingdom. Paekje Kingdom is Korean Kingdom. Hata clan is Korean not Chinese or Jewish. Japanese historical logic don't make any sense. Japanese history " logic" does not flow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Korea1times (talk • contribs) 09:40, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Why are you saying about Japanese government instead of a few Japanese historians? Japanese government never state about it, I think.65.130.254.51 (talk) 22:35, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


 * People just don't come down from heaven or eggs. There is no proof that every single Baekje originated in korea 10,000 years ago.  There is document that refugee Jizi of shang went to korea.  Winman Joseon... And other chinese invasion.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.91.103.220 (talk) 03:16, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Jewish connection makes no sense
The only people that believe the Japanese are Jewish seem to be Japanese Christians. They have a clear bias in the discussion. Wikipedia says Shinto's early history goes back to ~300 BCE. The earliest texts of the Torah only came ~550 years before. These texts would only be ~300 years older than early Buddhism. If Japanese Christians can claim they are Jewish, it gives a basis for accepting what is essentially the national religion of Israel. Europeans have long used the same logic to justify their belief in Christianity... everyone wants to be of the "lost tribes."

The connection to the "Star of David" is also ridiculous. The Wikipedia article for the SoD says that the first Jewish reference to the symbol is the 12th Century CE! That means the Grand Shrine of Ise was built before there is any reference to the Jews using the symbol. Are all Buddhists also German Nazis because the NSDAP used the "swastika" well after it was a Buddhist symbol? There is absolutely no logic in that argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.107.26.132 (talk) 21:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You are absolutely right to say that the Jewish connection makes no sense. But that does not stop certain groups of Japanese Christians from believing in it. If one were studying the beliefs of the Japanese New Religions, or if one were studying theories of the Lost Tribes, this would be interesting and useful information. Or should we delete all information from all the pages on religions and other systems of beliefs because they make no sense? LordAmeth (talk) 21:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Just note that Shinto seems to be the collection of local variety religions in Japan. So it might include late birth/arriving local religion. Some people are speculating that even the Grand Shrine of Ise was build around AC700, and the geguu (外宮) in the Grand Shrine of Ise was build more than 500 years later.65.130.254.51 (talk) 08:22, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

HATA CLAN IS KOREAN CLAN FROM BAEKJE KINGDOM. ( KUDURA IN JAPANESE). HATA CLAN IS NOT CHINESE OR JEWISH. IT'S ONE AND ONLY KOREAN FAMILY CLAN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FckinNihao (talk • contribs) 05:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Could you refer the source of the information? Thanks.65.130.254.51 (talk) 08:25, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

HATA CLAN ORIGIN IS BAEKJE/KUDARA KINGDOM (KOREAN KINGDOM) NOT CHINESE OR JEWISH. HATA CLAN FAMILY LINEAGE IS FROM KOREAN EMPEROR FAMILY NOT CHINESE OR JEWISH. HATA CLAN HAS SETTLED IN BAEKJE KINGDOM. NOT CHINESE OR JEWISH KINGDOMS. LIKE IT OR NOT HATA FAMILY CLAN TRACES HIS OR HER FAMILY ORIGIN TO KOREAN KINGDOM CALLED BAEKJE OR KUDARA KINGDOM. NOT CHINESE OR JEWISH KINGDOM. PLEASE CORRECT THE INFORMAITON. HISTORICAL ACCURACY IS NEEDED.

JAPANESE HISTORIANS ARE BLINDED FROM TRUE HISTORY. TRUE HISTORY REVEALS JAPANESE BLOOD LINE AND JAPANESE EMPEROR ARE KOREANS. LIKE IT OR NOT. KOREANS POPULATED THE ISLAND STATE THAT WE CALL MODERN DAY JAPAN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Korean1Professor (talk • contribs) 08:51, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Knock off the caps. If you would like to bring something across, it would be preferable if you can supply sources along with it. --  李博杰   | —Talk contribs email 13:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Korean did not originate from heaven. Out of Africa, plus countless migration and mixing.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.91.103.220 (talk) 03:21, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Jewish connections
As explained above, this is a minority opinion, and more than likely a myth. It is, however, not any pseudo-cultic thing I am trying to put forth, nor any sort of propaganda. It is an interesting and important aspect of the theories and ideas that surround this clan. If you read the section on Shinshukyo, you will see that there are very real groups that put forward this theory. Though they may be cults, and they may be completely incorrect about the Hata's origins, that does not make the information any less valid as historical, sociological information about the beliefs of certain New Religion groups. LordAmeth 15:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply

Firstly the use of the term 'tribe' is non standard. Conventionally, population groups of this type are refered to as 'clans', eg. Nakatomi clan, Yamato clan etc. This usage is doubly problematic in that it reinforces the eronious opinion that this group are one and the same as one of the lost tribes of hebraic mythology. This usage might be passable if it were suggested which of the biblical tribes the Hata are to be identified with.

After presenting this fringe opinion, the artical then procedes as though it were established and accepted fact. The suggestion then, that the Hebrew-Hata built the Great Wall of China as slave labourers belongs to the same genre of Jewish nationalist pseudo-history as the idea that the Pyramids of Giza were built using enslaved Hebrews.

The comment that the Hebrew-Hata acted as financial advisers to the imperial court asks for the reader's complicity in the stereotyping of hebraic (or in this case alleged hebraic) peoples as insinuating themselves into political power by controling finances. This is gravely cretinous. If you will not allow for the editing of this point then I will flag the entire article, though I am loath to do it as I am a fierce opponent of the use of the charge of anti-Semitism as a tool in policing debate.

Discussion of Kagome and the Star of David looks like an attempt to present this as evidence that the Hata were hebraic in origin. This is far, far too weak to let go even were citation provided.

As you admit, this (Hata=Hebrew) idea is a minority opinion. Given that, it is more appropriate to secondary entries or sub-articles rather than in the primary encyclopaedic entry (you'll notice I didn't remove it from elsewhere in the article).


 * I apologize if you think that I am pushing an opinion which I am not. I do not personally believe in their connection to the Jewish peoples. But it remains an established minority opinion, with lots of supporting evidence and lots of references in many texts, particularly those relating to New Religions, which are as valid an academic subject of research as anything else. If you think that my wording is misguiding, I invite you to please reword it to more carefully separate fact from theory. But please do not simply revert my edits; removing large swaths of information without consensus, particularly sourced information, from articles can be considered as vandalism. If you wish for me to provide further sources of other texts that make reference to this fallacy, I would be happy to do so.
 * As for the stereotyping comments about associating Jews with monetary management, I am Jewish and a strong opponent of anti-Semitic stereotyping. But that comment is not my own stereotype - it is that of Ikuro Teshima and the others who put forward this theory. Do you propose to remove from Wikipedia every article that involves Jewish accountants or businessmen because it serves to perpetuate a stereotype? LordAmeth 18:55, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply

I am perfectly confident that my logic is watertight. Your final question has a problem with what is termed in formal logic, the undistributed middle.

As I cannot appeal to any sense of logic here, I will instead appeal to your emotions.

"The Hata are said to have been adept at financial matters, and to have introduced silk raising and weaving to Japan. For this reason, they may have been associated with the kagome crest, a lattice shape found in basket-weaving which, by chance, bears strong resemblance to the Star of David."

Some people believe the Hata practiced bee worship and brought shamanic bee worshiping practices from mainland Siberia.

The Hata are said to have...introduced...weaving to Japan. For this reason, they may have been associated with the kagome crest, a lattice shape found in basket-weaving which, by chance, bears strong resemblance to honeycomb.

See how I made up a fact and then supported it with the most spurious and circular of evidence.

These ideas may appeal to Jewish nationalist sentiment ("Wow, our people dispersed all the way to Japan!") and Japanese New Religious Movements/Commercial pseudo-historic publishing ("Wow, our ancestors had connections to the Abrahamic tradition!"), but that alone will never be enough to elevate them to the status of good content. This idea is terribly argued, ignores mountains of facts opposing it (to resort to another Jewish stereotype, the Hata married their daughters off to men from other "tribes", most notably the Fujiwara. This is anathema to Jews - unless the whole of the Japanese people are Jewish. See the depths of ridicule these arguements descend to?) and is self evidently wrong.

By insisting on shoddy content like this in the primary encyclopedic entry, you do Wikipedia and the discipline of History a disservice.

Finaly, you behave as though this article were your published intelectual property. You ought not to, and it isn't.


 * I have no interest in arguing with you, and if you wish to remove reference to this interesting theory about the Hata, go ahead. It's not worth my time or energy to argue over something like this. I would encourage you, however, to take a look at some of the articles on the list of conspiracy theories, just to take one set of examples - just because something is blatantly incorrect does not make it any less interesting or worthwhile as a subject of study. Finally, I am perfectly willing to agree to disagree on this, but I do not appreciate insults to my intelligence or allegations that I'm not thinking logically. Let's try to be civil, okay? LordAmeth 10:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

"just because something is blatantly incorrect does not make it any less interesting or worthwhile as a subject of study."

That's entirely true. The point you keep missing though is that in best practice, discussion of this kind of material should be under sub-headings, not at the beginning of the article.


 * I have moved all references to the Jews or the Lost Tribes to the Shinshukyo section. I encourage you, if you wish, to play with the wording to make it more obvious that this is far from a formally accepted historical theory. I hope to come back next week and expand upon the claimed potential relationship of this clan to Qin Shih Huangdi and to the origins of kyogen & noh, as claimed by Zeami Motokiyo. Sorry it took me so long to make these changes - I hope that they are satisfactory to you. LordAmeth 11:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

HATA CLAN IS KOREAN CLAN. NOT CHINESE OR JEWISH. SHINSEN-SHOJIROKU ( JAPANESE NOBLE FAMILY): KOREAN CLAN NOBLE FAMILIES MAKE UP (154) WHEREAS CHINESE NOBLE FAMILIES MAKE UP (64). MAJORITY OF KOREAN NOBLE FAMILIES SETTLES KYOTO, NARA, ( KANSAI AREA), AND KYUSHU AREA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FckinNihao (talk • contribs) 05:25, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Baekje is Korean, but it had chinese migrants or refugees. China had foreign migrants and refugees.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.91.103.220 (talk) 03:39, 25 December 2013 (UTC)