Talk:Hate crimes against white people

NPOV
I've reverted the copy of material from Reverse discrimination and unsourced assertions about a wider problem of "anti-white" bias: this article is specifically about hate crimes against white people. Please see WP:Articles for deletion/Anti-white for the discussion about anti-white, reverse discrimination and hate crime. Empty Buffer (talk) 10:48, 2 July 2010 (UTC)


 * This article, in its current form is mockery of hate crime victims.--Wittsun (talk) 10:52, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you be more specific? Which parts of the article are lacking information? Is something missing? Empty Buffer (talk) 11:06, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Why does it start off on the footing that 'hate crimes against white people are the subject of controversy'? There is nothing controversial about the fact that whites are targeted for violent crime on the basis of race. The only thing controversial is the invention of the preposteriously word-smithed classification 'hate crime'.--Wittsun (talk) 12:37, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Further down the article there is a referenced assertion that the concept is disputed. I happen to disagree, but the fact remains that the controversy exists regardless of where I stand on it. I agree that the wording of the intro could be improved: go for it.
 * "Hate crime" is a pretty well-established term, and wasn't invented on Wikipedia: can you propose a better alternative wording? Empty Buffer (talk) 12:44, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * "Ethnically motivated violent crime against white people" is a better heading for this article, but excludes the political and sociological aspects that a more generalized term, such as 'anti-white' make adequate room for. It is not enough to cover the violent crimes without mentioning the ideological underpinnings of this phenomenon and their bizarre claims of 'historical justification'. --Wittsun (talk) 09:39, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well go ahead and add material about ideological underpinnings, so long as it's WP:NPOV, with refs from WP:RS, etc. etc. But not all reverse discrimination results in crime: some of it results in civil offenses, or in no legal offense at all, so the existing reverse discrimination material is mostly out of place in this article. And how will you distinguish between ideological and non-ideological hatred? And what's ideology, in this case? "Race X is evil" isn't necessarily an ideology. Empty Buffer (talk) 14:18, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I deliberately retained the NPOV notice. There are indeed viewpoints that are neglected and aspects that as yet only one side of have been presented. As I wrote in the AFD discussion, this is not a finished product, but a demonstration by example of what I thought could be done, to start you off in a direction that, presuming that you can continue with properly sourced analysis without creating a mere laundry list that doesn't inform readers at all, will less likely lead you to another AFD discussion down the road, as growing mere laundry lists regularly does do (The voice of long experience warns again.). Uncle G (talk) 14:59, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Political and Demographic Change
Hate crime against whites is a global phenomenon that generally accompanies political and demographic displacement. For example, in 1994, the year following apartheid in South Africa, 18,801 cases of rape were reported. A 2008 report from the U.S. Census Bureau projects that by 2042, non-Hispanic whites will no longer make up the majority of the U.S. population


 * This is a sub-section that can be expanded upon. --Wittsun (talk) 11:03, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The assertion in the first sentence is not supported by the references accompanying it, The referenced assertion in the third sentence about demographic change in the US is correct, but there's nothing demonstrating its relevance to an article on hate crimes against whites, apart from a vague implication that since rapes in SA rose after apartheid, then rapes will also rise in the US coincident with demographic change. DOJ and FBI stats show no correlation whatsoever: see Crime in the United States and its refs. Empty Buffer (talk) 11:15, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed the section . The second paragraph could be salvaged and be used as a counter-argument. -Oescp (talk) 11:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * And I removed this section per WP:NOR, since the refs cited say nothing about correlation with political or demographic change in SA, nor whether the rise in rape is mainly against whites, but only that there has been a rise in rape since 1994. Empty Buffer (talk) 12:00, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What are your thoughts on the Jessica Foord, Matthews and Flowerday cases? --Wittsun (talk) 11:10, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * My thoughts on what aspect of the cases? Empty Buffer (talk) 14:25, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As the total numbers of rapes rose significantly after apartheid and whites are a part of SA, they were also effected by this development. In the cases mentioned above race was mentioned as the determining factor in the crime.--Wittsun (talk) 17:45, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Could you please expand on this? I don't see where in either article it says that race hate was a factor. Empty Buffer (talk) 18:55, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * One of the articles is titled I was forced to rape the white lady at knifepoint. --Wittsun (talk) 20:54, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, he's saying is that she was white, and that he was forced to rape her. Where's the evidence of racial hatred? Empty Buffer (talk) 21:02, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The article continues: During cross-examination by Nirrad Manilal, lawyer for the accused four men, the witness was asked whether anyone had given them instructions during the crime.'The only instruction I was given was to rape a white lady" -- race was the motivating factor. As for receiving instructions goes, he could be referring to political/ideological instruction or gang initiation. As there were also several rapists involved it indicates a collective crime based on ethnic criteria.--Wittsun (talk) 09:54, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it says "The only instruction I was given was to rape the white lady". He doesn't say he was instructed to find a white woman to rape, and the article doesn't go on to assert a racial motive. And how does the fact that several people were involved indicate anything about ethnic criteria? If you can find any reliable sources showing that race was in fact a motive, then the incident should of course be included in the article. Empty Buffer (talk) 10:05, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Merely singing the 'kill the boer' song is considered a hate crime. Why then should a gang rape preceded by the statement rape the white lady be considered a non-hate crime? --Wittsun (talk) 12:41, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Richard Leakey
It's not clear whether the beatings of Richard Leakey in Kenya match the definition of "hate crime" given. Political violence happens a lot in Kenya, mostly against black Kenyans, and it's not clear how race hate is involved from the citation given. Empty Buffer (talk) 10:59, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The violence amongst 'blacks' in Kenyan politics is also ethnically motivated, namely between the Kalenjin and the Kikuyus Demographics: Kikuyu 22%, Luhya 14%, Luo 13%, Kalenjin 12%, Kamba 11%, Kisii 6%, Meru 6%--Wittsun (talk) 18:47, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That doesn't explain how the attack on Leakey was a hate crime. Empty Buffer (talk) 18:53, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going to remove the section about Leakey, since the references cited indicate that the attack was politically motivated, with no evidence of any racial motive. Empty Buffer (talk) 10:12, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I will put the Leakey section below for review, expansion and possible future consensus. His brush with Kenyan politics is an indication of systemic racism against the white minority in Kenya:

White conservationist and founder of the Kenyan opposition party Safina, Richard Leakey was beaten by supporters of President Daniel arap Moi in 1994. Two days after being appointed to the civil service to end widespread corruption, inefficiency and nepotism in March of 2001, he found it necessary to resign. --Wittsun (talk) 12:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)