Talk:Hatmaking

Quality of article
As it stands at present, this article isn't terribly good. I'll watchlist it and try to tidy it up when I think to do so, unless anyone else wants to step in sooner. Mabalu (talk) 02:24, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Always believed Millinery referred to hats, but this article is rather confusing, plus, as noted below, the picture may be mislabeled.

is the picture correct?
The picture is captioned as being in London, while the metadata on the image itself says "Paris Chalon" ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.100.212.24 (talk) 02:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * caption has already been corrected.Stepp-Wulf (talk) 03:52, 31 March 2009 (UTC).

Disambig.
I see that there is a play The Milliner - (2006) that may be notable if anyone wants to work it up and disambig. Gregory Gale was a costume designer nominated for Lucille Lortel Award based on it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Mad as a hatter
Just querying the Morris' assertion that 'mad as a hatter' predates the trade of hatter. The OED dates 'hatter' back to 1389. I'm sure all variants of the phrase are later than that. Cisgjm 09:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Robert Crab
Article rather needs an explanation of how the phrase would be linked to him, don't you think? 62.30.157.187 16:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge
Should this article be merged with millinery? Yes. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:01, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation?
Is this page a disambiguation, or a majorly short stub? I'll add unreferenced for now. Thanks, Ham  tech  person  23:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Notability of hatters and milliners.
I removed these names from the list. While they may have worked or trained as hatters, their role as hatmakers/milliners does not appear to have been significant in itself. Some, like Ellen Demorest and Alice O'Reilly, need a article about them to indicate their notability. (incidentally I thought Audrey Hepburn's hats in My Fair Lady were made by Mr. John, but willing to be proven wrong.)


 * Ellen Louise Demorest (née Curtis) (1825–98), a milliner widely credited with inventing mass-produced tissue-paper dressmaking patterns
 * Thomas Duffet (fl. 1673–76), an Irish milliner known for his work as a playwright and songwriter
 * Sonia Greene, a milliner who bankrolled several fanzines in the early twentieth century.
 * Jacob Hutter (d. 1536), founder of the Hutterites.
 * Margaret Manny, a milliner in colonial Philadelphia who made flags for the United States during the American Revolution.
 * Alice O'Reilly, an Irish Milliner known for her work in My Fair Lady having made Audrey Hepburn's famous hat at the Ascot Races, as well as hats for the Irish president's wife and fashion designer Jan Kelly.
 * Mary Quant, who had a career with a couture milliner
 * Richard Sharp (politician), 1759–1835, Fish Street Hill, London.

Basically, I don't think we can add just anyone to this list that ever made or trimmed a hat unless their role as a hatmaker or milliner can be clearly shown to be notable in itself (say, they influenced hat design, or invented a hat style, or became inextricably noted with a style). Do feel free to discuss/argue for any of the names above. I also know there are a LOT of names missing from this list - for example Elsa Schiaparelli certainly ought to be on there as she was and remains extremely well-known for her surrealist hats in the 1930s. And there's Halston who as a milliner created Jackie O's famous pillbox hats Mabalu (talk) 12:27, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Notability of individual hatters/milliners
This is the criteria I think should be applied to whether or not a name deserves to be on the list of notable hatters/milliners.

Hatters:

1) The hatter should have created or be known for a significant style of hat that has been or continues being manufactured over a long period of time. For example, Lock & Co and the bowler hat.

2) The hatter should have made innovations in the field of hat manufacture or design that had lasting influence.

3) They, or their business, should have had a long and/or distinguished career as a hatter, with high profile clients and significant media coverage showing their notability.

4) Their role as a hatter should not be tangential to other reasons for their notability. For example, Richard Sharp (politician) may have been described as "the world's first truly famous hatter" in one book, but he is not notable as a hatter. He is a notable person who incidentally was a hatter.

Milliners:

1) The milliner should have created or be known for a significant style of hat that has been or continues being manufactured/known over a long period of time. For example, Halston (not Cassini, as is sometimes claimed) created the pillbox hat of Jackie Kennedy. Although I need to find good references, he should be on the list for this reason, because the "Jackie O" pillbox remains widely recognised and was immensely influential, although Halston is more famous as a fashion designer than as a milliner.

2) The milliner should have made innovations in the field of hat manufacture or design that had lasting influence. For example, Anna Ben-Yusuf, whilst not widely known, wrote the first major book on millinery technique which remains an important reference work for current milliners.

3) The milliner, or their business, should have/have had a long and/or distinguished career, with high profile clients and/or significant media coverage showing their notability.

4) Their role as a milliner should not be tangential to other reasons for their notability. For example:
 * Rose Bertin is notable because she was a milliner who is often described as the first famous fashion designer.
 * Coco Chanel was a world-famous fashion designer who started out as a milliner. Her hat designs, while worth noticing, arguably do not make her a major player in the history of hat design.

5) Living milliners should ideally have significant and widespread coverage/reliable references citing the long term significance of their work. (See Treacy and Stephen Jones).

6) Designing a single hat that happened to become notable (ie, Luke Song and Aretha Franklin's inauguration hat) is equivalent of single event notability in this context. If Luke Song goes on to design many other high profile hats and is cited by reliable sources as having significant influence on the field of hat design, then he will be a notable milliner deserving of mention here. Right now, talented and notable as he is, he's not quite there yet.

Thoughts? Mabalu (talk) 12:55, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd also note that if you want a list of ALL milliners and hatters on Wikipedia, that's what Category:Milliners, etc. are for. Mabalu (talk) 12:59, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I was going to suggest Sergeant Boston Corbett's inclusion, but while he did much milinery, that work isn't perhaps very notable, and he was primarily famous for shooting John Wilkes Booth, in addition to being an incredibly eccentric and strange person. 81.227.20.48 (talk) 17:47, 21 February 2023 (UTC)