Talk:Haute couture

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Introduction?
Jocasta removed the introduction and moved the French legal discussion to the top. I don't think that's helpful. It needs a short introduction saying WHAT it means before diving into legal issues.

Metiers D'Art
This article would do well to mention the people who make Haute Couture possible, not just the visionaries. LaVieEntiere 02:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Official Rules for Granting the designation "Haute Couture"
In 2001, the French Secretary of State for Industry approved modifications to the rules defining "Haute Couture." The singular reference to this fact appears to be a press release from the Department of Industry: http://www.industrie.gouv.fr/cgi-bin/industrie/sommaire/comm/comm.cgi?COM_ID=784&_Action=200 stating that the essential attributes are:


 * conception de la collection par un créateur permanent,
 * excellence de la réalisation "fait main" et "sur mesure" au sein de l'entreprise,
 * taille minimale de l'entreprise ,
 * participation aux défilés de la profession,
 * permanence de ces engagements.

Put simply, the principle attributes are therefore a head designer, excellence in hand-made and made-to-measure clothing, a minimum number of workers, participation in the (couture) shows, and continuity of operations.

Note that the minimum number of outfits, the size of the house, and number of showings per year are not actually stated. My understanding is that the attributes currently on the article page (e.g., the Paris atelier requirement, two shows per year) are more accurate requirements for permanent members. The requirements quoted above however are applicable to permanent, correspondent and guest members.

It may be helpful for the article to include a link to this French government website, even though it is in French.

But these are only publicly stated "requirements." It is important to understand that appointments are made by the Chambre Syndicale de la haute couture, and no one else. The best guide to their appointments is to be found by checking the definitive schedule every season, e.g.:


 * http://www.modeaparis.com/va/collections/2008hahc/index.html

Keep in mind that Guest Members do not necessarily show every season. I'm also not certain how to confirm the list of former members.

If you have come to this Talk page to argue that this article should not be confined specifically to the French legal definition, that would entail a much more general debate. But the positions of the French government and the Chambre Syndicale are very, very clear.

Christopher Lee Adams (talk) 05:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

You can keep the Members section accurate by referring to the definitive schedules on the Federation's website:


 * fashion show schedule - Federation Francaise de la Couture

And for past seasons:


 * Fall Winter 2009


 * Spring Summer 2009


 * Fall Winter 2008/2009


 * Spring Summer 2008

Christopher Lee Adams (talk) 13:51, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Loose definitions of Haute Couture
Folks, I'm not sure that this article is ready for prime time. At least not without some help.

I removed the categories for US and UK haute couture because, despite being a reader of Vogue for many years, I can't figure out which fashion companies do real couture (custom dressmaking) and which are simply ready-to-wear, albeit high-end ready-to-wear. Vogue completely BLURS the distinction.

I *think* that the French, Italian, and Japanese designers featured do couture, but I'm not sure. Since the same house will do couture and ready-to-wear, the line blurs again.

If there's someone here who works in the fashion industry, or knows someone who works in the fashion industry, please put in your two cents!

Zora 09:25, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Not ready for prime time ? Exactly. That's why : This is a candidate for collaboration of the week. Please visit that page to support or comment on the nomination. ... the aim being "to have a featured-standard article by the end of the week, from widespread cooperative editing." (copied from the AOTW page). -- PFHLai 19:39, 2004 Jul 16 (UTC)


 * Quite a bit overdue, but if we look at what the companies declare themselves to be, the current list is pretty up to speed. I myself added Hugo Boss to it, due to them calling their clothing haute couture somewhere in their gargantuan mess of a website... --TVPR 17:50, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As the article correctly states, "Haute Couture" is a legally protected term in France. Only fashion houses chosen every year by the Fédération française de la couture may use the label. Their list of Members is included on the definitive schedule for each season.

(You may consult the fashion show schedule at the Fédération's website : .)

Christopher Lee Adams (talk) 15:21, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Removed sentence re "only 500 rich women"
It's been a long time since I looked at this article. Someone had added a sentence stating that there are only 500 rich women in the world. What??? That's simply unverifiable, and probably false. I do remember having seen estimates of the number of women who consistently patronize haute couture, estimates that seemed surprisingly low, but I wouldn't want to put simple speculation into a Wikipedia article. If anyone has any hard info on the size of the clientele for haute couture, let's discuss it here and then put it into the article. Zora 08:52, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I found some info on http://www.fashion-era.com/haute_couture.htm... "only about 3000 women or so worldwide can actually afford to buy clothes at the highest level, and fewer than 1000 buy regularly."

pronunciation
Please use standard phonetic notation... (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipa). That description of how it's pronounced isn't useful to anyone. Would someone who is very sure of the pronuncation do this? mahern

The Guardian
Alexandra Shulman in The Guardian gives this article a damning review - "every value judgment it makes is wrong" - and giving it an overall mark of zero. 86.132.137.141 02:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

'''Alexandra Shulman on the Haute couture entry

'''Broadly speaking, it's inaccurate and unclear. It talks about haute couture and then lists a large number of ready-to-wear designers. As a very, very broad-sweep description there are a few correct facts included, but every value judgment it makes is wrong.'''

Overall mark: 0/10

· Alexandra Shulman is editor of Vogue


 * Value judgements? That's not enough to go on in revising the article. I'm not sure what she would consider a value judgement and what not. As for mixing haute couture and ready-to-wear -- I agree that this is a problem. We have anons adding designers and not making the distinction. Anyone featured in the fashion columns seems to be considered haute couture by most folks. The fashionistas themselves don't seem to make it easy to sort out who does custom work and who's just pret-a-porter. Understandable, given that the haute couture is often a loss leader. We need some fashion industry insiders to help sort it out. I can't do it; I'm merely a hapless Vogue reader. Zora 03:04, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I added the expert tag until we can separate pret-a-porter from haute couture people, i am certainly no expert. - cohesion | talk 09:10, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Of course, value judgements can't - by definition - be 'wrong'. If insiders are too arrogant to guide this discourse, an outsider view would seem to be all the more relevant for a general readership. --80.177.9.239 13:09, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * One wonders why Shulman did not simply edit the wikipdia lists herself if it did not meet her standards. Perhaps for an insider, to the extent she is one, it is also not easy to do. For example, if you are on the Vogue payroll, as she is or was, you run the risk of alienating advertisers (those mainly read-to-wear who want to blur the lines by claiming to also do haute couture) by leaving them off your list. You'd normally be held to providing some examples in a legitimate critique, yet she provided none.


 * Perhaps Shulman is too busy to fix such a thing as a Wikipedia entry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.84.61.252 (talk) 11:08, 1 April 2007 (UTC).

Removed list
I think this needs to be heavily vetted before it is republished:

Belgian

 * Ann Demeulemeester - one of The Antwerp Six
 * Delvaux
 * Dirk Bikkembergs - one of The Antwerp Six
 * Dirk Van Saene - one of The Antwerp Six
 * Dries Van Noten - one of The Antwerp Six
 * Kaat Tilley
 * Marina Yee - one of The Antwerp Six
 * Martin Margiela
 * Olivier Strelli
 * Raf Simons
 * Véronique Branquinho
 * Walter Van Beirendonck - one of The Antwerp Six
 * Xavier Delcour

Dutch

 * Warmenhoven & Venderbos

French

 * Azzedine Alaïa
 * Balenciaga
 * Chanel
 * Christian Dior
 * Givenchy
 * Christian Lacroix
 * Hermès
 * Jean Paul Gaultier
 * Pierre Cardin
 * Yves Saint Laurent
 * Elie Saab

German

 * Jil Sander

Italian

 * Armani
 * MaxMara —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.148.254.10 (talk) 08:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Valentino
 * Zegna

United States

 * John Anthony
 * Mainbocher
 * Chado Ralph Rucci
 * Ashby
 * Calvin Klein

lots of issues | leave me a message 10:45, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Calvin Klein - per Justin Kennedy, fashion design instructor of Academy of Art University and fashion designer for Calvin Klein. Engreida (talk) 19:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC) Engreida


 * This should be moved to, and dealt with, at List of haute couture houses. -- Anon. 20:11, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I hope you don't mind- i edited slightly to add wikilinks. How did you come up with this list?  I can't seem to find an up-to-date source for this info.  --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 17:37, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * That's the problem. You can get a list of the French-government approved haute couture houses (not sure if the current list matches the French government list) but the rest of it is pure speculation.


 * At issue is whether or not a fashion firm (one, say, like Donna Karan) is JUST ready-to-wear, shoes, perfumes, etc., all created in factories with no custom sector, or whether it ALSO has a workshop that makes custom clothing for rich clients. Custom as in taking measurements, drafting a pattern, cutting, several fittings, etc. Many of the firms that one might regard as "high fashion" are in fact completely ready-to-wear. Those are the ones that various editors and anons keep adding to the list, because those are the ones in the fashion press. The fashion press actively covers up the distinction between ready to wear and custom.


 * There are also many custom clothiers throughout the world, but most of them are extremely small-scale and do not present fashion shows which purport to establish the mode. Therefore they are not "haute couture".


 * I worked hard on getting info on US haute couture and found a fashion insider on a weblog who was willing to commit to John Anthony and Chado Ralph Rucci as being REAL custom clothiers with fashion clout. The Ashby is vandalism and I'm not sure that Mainbocher is still couture, or still in business. Zora 18:20, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I was under the impression that Haute Couture does not mean just that they establish clothing, but that they are certified by that Chambre whatever. Also, can someone with fashion knowledge look into the mention of Warmenhoven and Vanderbos?  The mention was added a long time ago in a suspiciously gushy edit at  that looks a little spammy, and was not edited out.   The same IP also added this designer to the list of haute couture designers, but that info is not provided on their webpage.  --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 18:23, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

If we go with Chambre certification, that means only French firms can be haute couture. Possibly a solution might be to have a list of current and former certified French firms -- undeniably haute couture -- and then a list of designers in other countries who might meet, or might have met, the French standards if there were a certifying agency. Then perhaps a list of fashion houses, not necessarily haute couture? So a three-tier list. Zora 18:35, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Ugh, that sounds POV right off the bat there. I'm not sure if we can maintain that kind of stuff with any sort of authority.  As a side note, in googling research on this, I also saw some schools refered to as "schools of haute couture".  Should that definition and usage be covered in this article?  --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 18:43, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * A school of haute couture is a jumped-up sewing school . It claimes to teach couture techniques of pattern drafting, fitting, fine handwork, etc. The teacher may have no contacts in the world of haute couture, may never have worked there, and may not be able to get students jobs in that world. I believe that there's one school that DOES constitute a pipeline to the fashion world, the Fashion Institute of Technology, in New York, I think. Otherwise the traditional path is apprenticeship.


 * How about a two-tier list then? Certified, and non-certified but generally regarded as haute couture? Zora 00:04, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Once again, "generally regarded" is a POV term that we are generally unequipped to verify. Unless a major fashion news source (i.e. Vogue) categorizes these non-certified designers as "Haute Couture", we should not include them.  --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 19:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, if no one can certify the Warmenhoven cite I'm removing it from this article and the Fashion design article. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:06, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

What happened?
OK, so what is the current official list of Haute couture houses accredited my France's Ministry of Industry? What are the conditions which should be met for a house to be officially accredited? Which houses have been acreddited in the past? (dates of accreditation & dates of losing accreditation). Indeed there should definitely be a separate List of haute couture houses. A hapless vogue reader with a bit of time & google can easily make significant progress on answering Shulman's sweeping dismissal. Experts are over-rated, I'm swapping the tag as beyond removing the list of fashion houses this article has not changed significantly since the article in the Guardian. MGSpiller 00:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The Fédération Francaise de la Couture currently lists these entities for the spring 2014 Haute Couture week: Atelier Versace, Schiaparelli, Christophe Josse, On aura tout vu, Chanel, Stephanie Rolland, Bouchra Jarra, Alexandra Vauthier, Julien Fournie, Giorgio Armani Privé, Maison Martin Margiela, Frank Sorvier, Elie Saab, Jean Paul Gaultier, Yiqing Yin, Valentino, Viktor&Rolf, Serkan Cura, Zuhair Murad, Ralph&Russo, Boucheron, Bulgari, Chanel Joaillerie, Mellerio Dits Meller, Gossens, Holding Textile Hermès, Lesage, Lemarié, Maison Michel. Source: http://www.modeaparis.com/en/fashion-shows/Schedules/Haute-couture -Panu 91.158.111.109 (talk) 21:47, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

The Stuff Dreams are Made Of section shows clear bias
"These hand stitches are so graceful to look at, it's like watching a ballet dancer's leaps frozen in time."

"It's the best bargain in fashion."

"until clear into the nineties, haute couture was the stuff women's dreams were made of."

Clearly all subjective bias. This section and possibly the whole article need to be re-written from a neutral point of view.

It was unnecessary, orginal research, and informally written. I've deleted it. Cold Water 22:47, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment Actually I think it was quite well written. But I understand that it needs quite a bit of work in order to conform to your style. I wrote it several months ago and it's one of the few things I've written that was never published and I thought it would help your article. As your article now stands it is (except for deleting the ready-to-wear designers mistakenly included as couturiers) virtually identical to the October 15 version, about which the editor of Vogue wrote "As a very, very broad-sweep description there are a few correct facts included, but every value judgment it makes is wrong." As for bias, I've never worked in the industry. Yes my mother bought a very few pieces in Paris, which she treasured, and I've bought quite a lot at vintage stores. So I do love couture. But then again the author of "Sistine Chapel" article clearly loves Michelangelo's paintings. I've done quite a bit of reading about Haute Couture over the years but I dont have the refs handy. Can I reproduce what I wrote here so people can see it and judge? You'll see it has a lot of facts that give depth to the rest of the article.

My contribution As stated above, couture is expensive, custom-made clothing produced primarily in Paris. But this description does little to convey the cachet that haute couture once had -- and still has -- among the rarefied elite of the fashion world. For half a century, from the end of World War II when Christian Dior created the "new look" and suddenly every woman's wardrobe was outdated, until clear into the nineties, haute couture was the stuff women's dreams were made of.

Twice a year, in January and July, the top designers in France present a new line of haute couture fashion. These designs are totally different from their other, ready to wear lines. Until recently, it was the haute couture shows which were the driving engine of fashion creativity. The designer put by far the greatest part of his effort into these. The shows theselves were often quite memorable. Back in the sixties, fashion iconoclast Courreges (see history section above)concealed a huge nude black man in a box beneath the most exclusive front-row seats, ready to burst forth and dance, or perhaps gibber, at a prearranged signal.

Couture fashions epitomized elegance and glamour. But, as stated above, they always lost money... designers did it to boost their reputation, so their moneymaking perfumes would sell better. It was an artist's dream: creativity was unfettered, unrestrained by any financial considerations, and many creations were so over the top and frou frou that no one bought them. (Nor were people intended to; they were intended as extravagant works of art, and helped garner publicity.) Even the best sellers sold only ten or fifteen copies. Only 2,000 women have ever bought a couture dress. It's just too expensive.

How expensive? The fashion houses are coy about this. And they often lend movie stars gowns to wear on Oscar night. But I phoned the Valentino boutique several years ago and they said a suit costs at least $15,000. The blouse costs an extra $7,000. An evening gown costs more, upwards of $20,000, and elaborate numbers can fetch well over $100 thousand.

It's the best bargain in fashion. An Armani ready to wear suit has about 3 hours of work put in. Couture gowns have upwards of 200, and some can take 1000 hours of sewing. Everything is done by hand. The lining is sewn by hand. Every stitch is done by hand (though I've seen some of the long seams made with sewing machines). These hand stitches are so graceful to look at, it's like watching a ballet dancer's leaps frozen in time.

Each suit or gown is custom made and requires at least three fittings. The fittings are quite elegant. At Valentino, expensive perfume is sprayed into the air a few minutes before the client arrives, so she doesnt have to breathe the same air as the masses. The client may also ask for modifications in the design to be sure hers is totally unique. But it's a time consuming business... fly to Paris, attend the shows, then spend weeks in Paris going to fittings. But I'm sure it has its rewards. It was rumored that JFK's widow married Onassis so she could afford Valentino Couture.

Each couture house has two ateliers (couture workshops) The Atelier Tailleur produces the suits, which are rigorously tailored. The Atelier Flou sews the gowns. The Atelier Flou starts with a piece of fabric and a dream. Their creations appear to be woven out of light and air


 * Yes, it was well-written, but it's still personal opinion and not appropriate for an encyclopedia. We aren't a vanity publishing concern. Zora 19:23, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

History section, bibliography
Someone copied the article re Charles Worth into the haute couture article, where it stuck out like a sore thumb. I trimmed it down considerably.

There must be some academic books and articles on haute couture and we really should cite them. The article could use more research and a real bibliography. Zora 08:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

yes also worth being father of haute couture seems dubious. How about Marie-Jeanne Rose Bertin? She dates as far back as the 18th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.164.82 (talk) 10:57, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

NPV?
"English intelligencia used their eternal francophobia and jealousy in painting new rules to limit it, trying to dash down the french art greatness who was ruling the world."

Doesn't this seem just a tad too anti-English and a tad too pro-French to anyone else? Not to mention it should be 'that' not 'who'...


 * I have reverted all the edits by "Jim Smhti" or whatever the username was. They were grotesquely nationalist, not to mention badly spelled and phrased. Zora 03:09, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Demi-couture?
Demi-couture seems to be an emerging middle-ground between haute couture and prêt-à-porter, but I found nothing in wikipedia about it. I don't know nearly enough to start the article though. Smileyy 01:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Education
Someone (when?) had added a list of fashion design schools in a section on education. I erased the whole section. I'm sure that there must be hundreds, if not thousands of schools and programs training people for the fashion industry. WP can't put itself in the position of deciding which of them are worth mention and which aren't. Zora 02:32, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Official Haut Couture Houses
Someone thought they were being clever by adding "Hanes" to the list of houses that were once official haute couture members so I've deleted it. Also #14 "Punkouture by Regina" seem dubious... I've never heard of that nor is there an article for any such designer. Someone needs to find a reference for this list, as only the list of current members is cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tormad (talk • contribs) 21:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Bias?
I am not a fashion connoisseur, so I apologize in advance if this is a trivial complaint. Why is there this line in the definition of the article: "LucaSignore is not an example of Haute Couture, with boring colors such as black, gray and white in his wardrobe." I would think that a good example of Haute Couture would make more sense. To an uninitiated reader such as I, the above reads like someone has a bias against LucaSignore enough to edit the article. --142.55.65.220 (talk) 15:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Good Descriptive Quote
Maybe add this quotation?

"They don't sell it at Macy's. They barely sell it at Bergdorf Goodman." from http://blog.charlesbeckwith.com/2007/07/high-fashion-photography.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lex0nyc (talk • contribs) 05:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Link to Wu Yong is definately wrong
I see that it links to another Wu Yong from Chinese myth / ancient texts. 79.74.229.99 (talk) 21:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the note. I've de-linked the name.  Cheers —fudoreaper (talk) 00:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I've since fixed this by redirecting WUYONG (no space) to a page for the designer, Ma Ke Christopher Lee Adams (talk) 13:22, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Should "fashion house" automatically direct to this page?
The term "fashion house" is not exclusive to the rarefied world of haute couture. For example, a brand such as Chloé, which is a ready-to-wear label, can be described as a "ready to wear fashion house". This is the same problem I have with "fashion label" going to "brand" as the term "fashion label" can mean all labels produced under the umbrella of a main label/fashion house (NOT a haute couture house). For example, I am currently working on a Jean Muir entry (after a shock-horror reaction to the old entry) and I wish to use the term "with the backing of the London fashion house Susan Small". Susan Small is a high end ready-to-wear label that was active in London from the 40s to the 80s, which was never haute couture, but which had a high design standard, and would be considered a "fashion house" due to its commercial presence. I would therefore query why the term "fashion house" must automatically redirect to haute couture? Mabalu (talk) 22:02, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right. Fixed. Softlavender (talk) 02:00, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Someone's reset the term back to redirect to this page. I tried to undo the change, but it didn't take. Jeez. Mabalu (talk) 23:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Your opinions are correct and noted, but to make this distinction in a Wikipedia article, you need to have sources which make the distinction for you. Can the term not be somehow explained in a section of fashion or Fashion design or something, which you can link to from the disambig page? As it is now, we have just a dictionary definition, which does not demand disambiguation because this is not a dictionary. Why don't you try writing something up with sources first, and figure out its location and the related redirects, hatnotes, etc. later.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 02:14, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Former Members
Erik Tenorio

This designer is unknown to the Ecole de la Chambre Syndicale de la Couture in Paris.

Source of reference, Ecole de la Chambre Syndicale de la Couture 45, Rue Saint Roch  - 75001 Paris, France ecole@modeaparis.com Engreida (talk) 16:10, 22 July 2009 (UTC)Engreida

Gai Mattiolo 

Official website link with bio: http://www.gaimattiolo.it/ Engreida (talk) 18:40, 24 July 2009 (UTC) Engreida

Fred Sethal 

Last name spelled "Sathal." Fred is a french woman born in 1966. Information regarding Sethal can be found here:

http://www.ameinfo.com/48641.html Engreida (talk) 18:43, 24 July 2009 (UTC) Engreida


 * The spelling of Sathal has now been corrected.Christopher Lee Adams (talk) 16:02, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Jean-Louis Scherrer

Born in Paris in 1936. More information here:

http://www.fashionwindows.com/fashion_review/scherrer/default.asp Engreida (talk) 18:46, 24 July 2009 (UTC) Engreida

Anna May

Perhaps, this is her contact information:

1159 New Chester Road Easthan Wirral CH62 0BY

0151 328 1990

info@annamay.co.uk

http://www.annamay.co.uk/

Engreida (talk) 18:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC) Engreida

Photograph
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/Robe_chanel.jpg Engreida (talk) 18:57, 24 July 2009 (UTC) Engreida

Error in Decline subsection
Who can tell me what's wrong with this sentence? "By 2004 there were only 9 high-ranking couture houses: Chanel, Versace, Valentino, Dior, Givenchy, Gaultier, Lacroix, Mori, Sirop, Scherrer and Torrente.[citation needed]" Ignoring the citation problems it's that there are supposedly 9 high-ranking couture houses, but 11 are listed. Someone who knows more about this subject needs to clean this up. Mr. Snow (talk) 20:02, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I removed the obvious inconsistency, but the entire paragraph still needs references. Reify-tech (talk) 23:23, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Discussion about improvements to this article
I'd like to do some work on this article, which is still at start class. I'd like some input before I start.

1) Currently the page talks a lot about the dictionary definition and then sweeps us forward to the legal status/Chambre Syndicale before moving us back to history. I suggest this format is fractured and is pushing the subject down one alley. Haute couture and the Chambre are intertwined in the same way that Champagne and champagne...I mean fizzy wine... are, close but not actually entirely the same thing. The Chambre (which is an august and highly successful government-backed marketing syndicate for French fashion, and I've even found a very useful reference from The Times of 1916) should be discussed here but then have its own page where it could be discussed in more depth with listings of former and current members. Before reaching this conclusion I checked earliest references in The Times to haute couture and it was used sparingly as a generic term (lower case), and with no reference to the Chambre, from the early 20th century.

2) This article should discuss the roots of 'high fashion' – ie, bespoke and highly copied/deferred to – and present a more coherent timeline that takes in court dress and the roots of haute as a concept. It should encompass not just France, but also main nations and individuals that had or have a substantial reputation.

3) To make sense of the subject, it also needs to reference other areas of couture – the copying of Paris models, for instance, which was a pretty successful industry in the early 20th century and still happening under licence when stores such as Wallis had their heydey in the 1960s. Also, perhaps, give it a less reverential frame of reference – haute today is, as far as I can gather, a hook for the profitable ends of the couture business.

It would be great to have input/screams of horror and help if anyone else is minded to get this article off start level. Libby norman (talk) 00:46, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

The article provides a well-defined background of the history of Haute Couture Designs and where the term was originally coined. The information about how Haute Couture originated in England by Charles Frederick Worth and went from being a protected term by the French government to being a term that was widely used by other fashion capitals around the world shows how culturally united the fashion industry became over the course of a century. However, the overall content of the article is too focused on its European origins rather than how it was used around in various places. There was also a slight biased point of view in the statement “Rich women no longer felt that a Paris dress was necessarily better than one sewn elsewhere. While Paris is still pre-eminent in the fashion world, it is no longer the sole arbiter of fashion,” that may disrupt the factual aspect of the information. The article would be a lot stronger if it gave short information on some of the notable Haute Couture designers such as Christian Dior, instead of simply listing them off under the members of Haute Couture. One suggested source that the editors can use for more information is http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/haut/hd_haut.htm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5B11:7400:E421:B71F:70BF:8C5D (talk) 03:45, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Haute couture. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20160126225208/https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1563675390 to https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1563675390

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 00:49, 2 March 2016 (UTC)