Talk:Hawaiian pizza/Archive 1

Merge
This would make a good brief paragraph at Pizza but it's a bit lame all on its own, no?... Wetman 01:17, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, this should be integrated with pizza. There is no need for a list of places in North America that serve Pineapple on their pizza. Mark Richards 22:36, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * NO. Hawaiian Pizza is a distinct type of pizza, not to mention an odd phenomenon (as it most definitly did not originate in the state of Hawaii) there should be enough content to support its own page. Tuscan Knox 17:27, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Type? Style? Semantics? I nod my oblate-spheroid-shaped overly large homely head in agreement with the Richards bloke advocating this page's info into the general "pizza" page or wherever a listing of pizza-topping-ingredients is listed though actually mentioning "Hawaiian pizza" seems to be a needless use of terminology that detracts from knowledge seeker's quest.Obbop (talk) 23:05, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Hawaiin pizza sales in Aus
On this page it claims that 15% of all pizza sales in australia are hawaiin, yet on the main page for pizza it says 20%. Other then being a hawaiin pizza eater and an Australian, i have no knowledge of this. So if someone has the knowledge and sources to back it up, could you make a choice. thanks! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.4.74.65 (talk) 19:26, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

I personally would like to see more evidence of this. A friend of mine who works in a pizza shop says that meat lovers is their biggest seller, and Hawaiian is 3rd or 4th (after supreme) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.242.57 (talk) 09:37, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Italy
Should someone add something about how italy does not like this idea, and sometimes even protests it?

I totally agree. Hawaiian Pizza is a total absurdity and barbarism. We (italians) don't think that the Hawaiian pizza comes from Germany, simply since we don't suspect that it even exists. And, for us, it's disgusting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.133.131.48 (talk) 20:41, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Other Versions
I've seen a number of places in Europe (especially Budapest) where this pizza includes corn on it; is this widespread enough to be mentioned?

also in the german version its stated pizza hawaii is german origin and not Pizza Express

Also also - this is commonly known, especially in England, as a 'Florida Pizza'. RomTokins (talk) 04:22, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Please don't put corn on my pizza
 * 2) I was wondering why this article is in the German cuisine category. What's the source?
 * 3) I'm pretty sure pineapples don't grow in Florida. ChildofMidnight (talk) 09:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Is there really a version with "shrimp, green pepper, mushrooms and/or jalapenos" known as Hawaiian? Never seen that ever in the US, anyway. Not saying it doesn't exist, but seems suspect based on my experience. 128.48.204.208 (talk) 20:58, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Toast Hawaii was featured on a German TV cooking show in the early 1950ies, but i don't know about pizza —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.5.184.66 (talk) 11:51, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

I've never heard of a Hawaiian pizza that didn't use Canadian bacon. If anything you have reversed the facts and the ham one is the least common version. Gune (talk) 02:36, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Verifiable citations for the second paragraph
The paragraph about the Panopoulos seems poorly cited. Just by looking at the reference list, I see "according to Wikipedia" in at least two articles. This makes the articles moot as sources, for it would be tantamount to citing Wikipedia itself. I wonder if we would actually have to delete this section because of WP:NOR? Joe S chmedley Talk 00:07, 17 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think you actually read the whole articles. The Village Voice article mentioned Wikipedia but it did not rely on it. The Village Voice did their own research and fact-checked the claims in the Wikipedia article and even made corrections, rather than taking Wikipedia at its word. The Village Voice article was subsequently cited by the others. Thus, the articles are not tantamount to citing Wikipedia itself.76.183.213.181 (talk) 18:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Pigs?
"pigs being the most common domesticated animal on the islands"
 * I'm pretty sure this statement is, ahem, 'hogwash'. (sorry)  True, one of the most famous "hawaiian" dishes is "Kalua pig" but it's totally different from the kind of thinly sliced ham found on the pizza.  The only connection the pizza has to hawaii is the pineapple - and even the reason of pineapple's "popularity" is pushing it.  Rather, I would say it was because hawaii used to be a major pinaple growing region (Dole owned the entire island of Lana'i and it had the worlds largest pineapple plantation on it).  Crazynorvegian

Hello, The referencing in the article below is circular. The Wikipedia article states that the Hawaiian pizza was created in London ON based on an article that stated that Wikipedia said so. There is absolutely no credible source to this information. Someone keeps putting it back, as a joke. They wrote the article initially as a joke, then a poorly researched article was written with Wikipedia as the source and then Wikipedia sourced that article! Poor journalism! We can do better!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_pizza

Wikistar19 (talk) 17:28, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Agree. Referencing is circular, so it doesn't make any sense. I have heard tales of italian immigrants in Germany saying that pineapple pizza was already popular in Germany during the 50s. I am removing that part. --Purple74 (talk) 06:05, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Origin
It seems inappropriate to be mentioning where the pizza wasn't invented. Also, until there some evidence, I think any mention of the origin should be removed, or replaced with text listing the various origin arguments. --Steve Stair (talk) 15:00, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Australian History
The inclusion of the J.E. Marsh paragraph is interesting and partially relevant in that the pineapple is the cornerstone of a Hawaiian Pizza. Unfortunately, this article isn't about pineapple alone, and it's intent is not to debate whether or not Australian invented Hawaiian Pizza in the '50's. I moved the uncited paragraph from above the well cited and documented claims, to below it. I also made the tone less argumentative removing "Contrary to the claims below..." I also subtly point out the Australian claim is to pineapple alone. I have quite a few problems with it but the J.E. Marsh paragraph was a good faith edit and does add to the subject, and does cite a single source inline. Sudopeople (talk) 19:03, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Searching for sources
I've been searching for sources to verify the claims made in the article. So far, the earliest mention I've been able to find in a reliable source is from 1973. Here are newspaper articles that mention "Hawaiian pizza" before 1990:


 * These four articles from the Toronto Star
 * These four articles from the Toronto Star
 * These four articles from the Toronto Star
 * These four articles from the Toronto Star
 * These four articles from the Toronto Star

Does anyone know of any earlier references? Does anyone have access to these archived documents? Mind matrix  16:17, 11 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Here are books and journals published before 1980 that contain the phrase "Hawaiian pizza":
 * - this is quoting actor Wallach "that must be something like Hawaiian pizza", which may not refer to this product; it may have been a humorous comment...; see also Movies Abroad: Hi-ho, Denaro! at Time Archives
 * - page 103: "And few pizzas have proven as popular as the Hawaiian pizza invented in California."
 * - page 9: "Hawaiian Pizza House"


 * Anything else? Mind  matrix  16:31, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Circular References?
Poking through the references cited in the Wikipedia article on Hawaiian Pizza, a common thread is this: In the beginning, Wikipedia attributed Hawaiian Pizza to Sam, and then someone decided to investigate this claim by asking Sam, and Sam said yes, so that makes Wikipedia correct, and then these are the sources Wikipedia now uses.

The consequence is that, rather than Wikipedia containing what is obviously original research, it rather contains doubly-indirect original research. Oh, and Sam's personal say-so regarding a matter in which he may have a vested interest, if only because it might drive patronage at his restaurants.

Wikipedia should not be an advertising platform. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.30.163.244 (talk) 04:12, 11 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Seconding this, did some digging myself and found the original edit was unsourced. . Unfortunately, it seems the internet has taken this dubious "evidence" and has run away with it. For what little good it will do, I propose we remove this, as all sources cite Wikipedia. 2601:200:C000:4304:34B5:F9F2:4782:6D55 (talk) 07:24, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

deleted Australian History
I've asked the State Library of Victoria what's in the cited book on Pineapple pizza. "Nothing", they told me - and sended me a pdf of the document by email. This is what they wrote to me. "I have enclosed the Marsh bibliography but it is just a brief list of books held at a small library with no reference to photos or to the Quigley's. I think someone has just made up the source reference in the Wikipedia item. While there are references on the web to the Quigley's and photos, no-one has produced or referred to a specific photo. I checked the most likely references from the bibliography but there were no pictures of the Quigley's making Hawaiian pizzas. I can't locate any photographs at the major libraries of any pizza making on the Murray."

The only cited source is not valid, and there don't seem to be any other proof for the Quiqley's being the first making Hawaiian pizza. Lexb011 (talk) 13:21, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much for the follow through! sudo  people  17:31, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Definition of "fruit" in article
But tomato, olives, peppers (hot and sweet), (borderline on mushrooms) plus a lot of other pizza toppings are technically types of fruit. The classification is unclear here.--KimYunmi (talk) 23:08, 4 April 2017 (UTC) I agree. There's a lot of Fruit on pizza. This is an incorrect argument. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.216.125.207 (talk) 15:22, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Pedantic diversion. The point is that pineapple is a fruit in the commonly understood sense of the word, i.e., that it's sweet dessert fare rather than savoury main-course material. For the purposes of WP, this is specific enough. Laodah 06:13, 22 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Tomato, olives and peppers are -- botanically -- fruit, as they are the seed-containing parts of flowering plants. Mushrooms could be called fruit in a sense because they contain seeds, but fungi neither flower nor are plants. That said, culinary, any of those but hot peppers and mushrooms are vegetables, hot peppers are a spice, both of which aren't even botanical categories, and mushrooms are mushrooms. As this is an article about food and not biology, obviously the culinary taxonomy applies. 89.15.239.35 (talk) 16:03, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Potential stub?
I personally think that this article does not have the suitable size for a Wikipedia article, noting that a typical article can exceed 5 computer screens of text, which this article in particular does not reach up to. I recommend editing the article a bit more than what is currently available

101.175.115.214 (talk) 05:35, 10 April 2020 (UTC)Someone

"Canadian Pizza" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Canadian Pizza. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 13 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. signed,Rosguill talk 16:58, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Canadian bacon
I've always thought Canadian bacon was the specific form of ham that goes on a Hawaiian pizza. It's what I've heard pretty much everywhere I've been, but there's no mention in the article. Are there any sources for it? Note: I'm not gonna bother with doing it myself. 50.34.104.94 (talk) 17:48, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2019 and 20 April 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Erinhorne.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:09, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Italy
I added a line reporting how Italy is disgusted by this "dish", and my edit was reverted. It is still considered ( although we Italians are offended by) a variety of pizza, and so the opinion most diffused in the country should be present in the article, otherwise it would be fair not to call it even "pizza".--62.10.49.89 (talk) 10:00, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Politicians and celebs expressing their distaste for Hawaiian Pizza - just an attempt to appeal to the youth
If you read the article, you would come to the conclusion, that some remarks of the Icelandic president in 2017 and the following statements were the start of a public cultural debate about Hawaiian pizza. However, the disgust about putting pineapple on pizza (or defending it) was already a popular topic in internet culture back then, and those politicians clearly just jumped on the bandwagon. That should be made clear in the article. --2A02:1210:248C:1500:3022:84FF:D9D7:AC37 (talk) 15:07, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Breakdown of toppings
I would like to added a breakdown of the traditional toppings on Hawaiian pizza. Maybe adding a section on ideal cheese blends that would create the ultimate cheese traits and flavors. Like what blend of cheese create the best textures or what cheese blends pair well with the Hawaiian style pizza. Shoelace01 (talk) 20:28, 28 September 2022 (UTC)


 * "Cheese" Section proposal: (I have references on one of my sandboxes)
 * “The most common [cheeses used as a topping for pizzas] are Mozzarella, Provolone, Parmesan, and Romano”. Hawaiian pizzas are “often blended with mozzarella” because of the texture mozzarella cheese has once it's baked in the oven. Mozzarella and aged cheddar cheese blended on Hawaiian pizza creates “better texture and flavor characteristics” overall because this blend results in an “increased production of organic acids, and proteolytic”. Mozzarella specifically “has ideal melting and stretching properties” and “it has just enough moisture to brown and bubble without burning as the pizza bakes”. Adding "a water-soaking pretreatment step [to] low-fat and fat-free [mozzarella] cheese shreds” helps improve the characteristic of Hawaiian pizza pies. Mozzarella is “molded into spheres or ovals and stored in water to keep it moist” allowing the cheese to be processed, shipped, and sold without spoiling. This process allows pizza makers to prolong its shelf life, permitting them to store larger quantities of mozzarella.
 * Shoelace01 (talk) 15:25, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Information Literacy and Scholarly Discourse
— Assignment last updated by Dsackey (talk) 18:13, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Potential Citogenesis
Since its creation in 2004, Hawaiian Pizza was subject to edits inserting claims that the pizza was invented or created in a particular region or by a particular person. For example, it was invented in Edinburgh Scotland, in Germany, in Hawaii, at the University of Michigan, in Provo Utah, and by the chain Boston Pizza.

One such anonymous edit on July 15, 2009:

A Canadian restaurant owner named Sam Panopoulos claims to have first come up with the idea of placing pineapples and ham on a regular pizza in 1960 in Chatham, Ontario (citation required)

The edit was replaced by a competing claim on January 15, 2010, but reverted shortly thereafter.

On April 30, 2010, Sarah DiGregorio of The Village Voice, in an online article Do Hawaiians Eat Hawaiian Pizza? wrote the following:

''But then I started to wonder where Hawaiian pizza came from in the first place. Wikipedia, that font of reliable information, says that in 1960, Sam Panopoulos, owner of the Family Circle Restaurant in Chatham, Ontario, was the first to make it.''

DiGregorio made no claim that the Panopoulos story was true, only that it was written on Wikipedia. She contacted local reporter Bob Boughner of the Chatham Daily News. Boughner contacted Panopaulos himself, and wrote the following:

''Aloha! Hawaiian pizza born in Chatham?''

Chatham-Kent can claim many firsts -the latest is the creation of Hawaiian pizza...

''An article on the history of Hawaiian pizza credits Panopoulos with introducing the dish to the world in 1960 at the Family Circle Restaurant in Chatham. Sarah DiGregorio, a staff writer with the Village Voice, a newspaper in New York, called The Chatham Daily News as part of her investigation into the origin of Hawaiian pizza. She said an article on Wikipedia credits Panopoulos with inventing the idea of putting pineapples and ham on pizza in 1960.''

The only sources Boughner refers to are Wikipedia, the DiGregorio article about Wikipedia, and Panopoulos himself. The only source DiGregorio refers to is Wikipedia. Boughner's article was the basis for an additional interview with Panopoulos by the Toronto Sun, which stated:

''According to Wikipedia, the origins of the pie are closer to the shores of Lake Erie than the Mediterranean or the Pacific. The online encyclopedia says Sam Panopoulos, 76, of London was the first to make the unlikely culinary fusion, at his Chatham restaurant way back in 1962.''

These appear to be the original sources from which all further articles post-2010 refer back to, all of which refer ultimately to the anonymous Wikipedia edit that introduced the Sam Panopoulos story in July 2009

Years later in 2017 a social media fad and a tweet from the office of Justin Trudeau triggered a wave of articles which repeated verbatim the Wikipedia content, as well as additional interviews of Panopoulos.

Has any editor found any written or recorded evidence of "Sam Panopoulos invented Hawaiian Pizza" dating from before July 15, 2009?

Maybe a menu, an advertisement, a newspaper clipping, an interview, or a photograph? Lwneal (talk) 04:06, 23 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I think what you seek is difficult to find. We should remember that prior to Sam P being the widely accepted Hawaiian Pizza inventor, his restaurant is virtually unheard of, especially in a lesser known town of Chatham. The lack of ad, newspaper, interview, or photograph is totally normal for a restaurant of its size prior to its fame. There is no reason to do all these things (interview, taking photos...etc) until there is something worth reporting of - which is knowing Sam is the creator of Hawaiian Pizza, and that happened post-2009.
 * For example, we can also not find any evidence that the restaurant began in 1962 (no menu, advertisement, newspaper, interview, restaurant reviews), would you therefore doubt the restaurant for indeed opening in 1962, and claim it is only open after 2009? Kazuha1029 (talk) 01:07, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Given that "Hawaiian Pizza" has become so divisively popular in recent years, that some little shop in Chatham, ON, has been serving it since 1962 and was apparently completely unknown and undocumented for five decades until a sourceless Wikipedia edit in 2009 tends to favor the citogenesis and/or self-promotion scenario.
 * Actually regardless of whether the claim may some day prove valid, at the moment it still explicitly fails WP:CIRCULAR and WP:PRIMARY and should probably be explicitly noted that the claim has no supporting evidence. 64.121.126.15 (talk) 19:23, 8 July 2023 (UTC)