Talk:Hawker Hurricane variants

Statement deleted
The statement about the Spitfire being produced more quickly because of the all metal construction is a nonsense; by the end of the B of B there were more factories producing Spitfires, particularly when Castle Bromwhich got into full stride. There are no sources quoted to back up the somewhat confusing Mk II sub-types; can the information be verified?Minorhistorian (talk) 23:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)


 * One of the Spitfire Wiki articles noted that Spitfires went from "hand made" to "factory jigs" to create the gracefully curved wings. Early Spitfires were Fabric covered like many other contemporary British aircraft built in 1939-1940 (Most WWII "Aluminium" came from the US). Lack of metal described in the Mosquito article. Shjacks45 (talk) 19:52, 14 February 2012 (UTC)


 * No Spitfire was ever fabric-covered, the only fabric covered parts on a Spitfire were the rudder, elevators, and the ailerons on early aircraft. The Hurricane however, was an earlier aircraft than the Spitfire, being effectively a monoplane Hawker Fury, and had a fabric covered rear fuselage and tail surfaces and in the very early examples, fabric covered wings. The metal-covered wing was introduced before WW II.


 * The UK was never short of aluminium alloys, the use of wood in the Mosquito just had the advantage of not needing to use as much aluminium as other aircraft and allowed under-employed woodworkers and woodworking companies to be used for building Mosquito components - due to the outbreak of war these industries had almost no work. And the method of wood construction also made it a lighter airframe and when carrying the same load faster than an equivalent metal aeroplane. The 'pots and pans for Spitfires' campaign where people handed-in their surplus aluminium pots and pans was misguided, as the alloys used in the pots and pans was unsuitable for making aircraft. But it was good for morale.


 * The Hurricane could indeed be built faster than the Spitfire initially but as Minorhistorian states, once the factory at Castle Bromwich went on-line they could build Spitfires just as fast as Hawker could build Hurricanes. Supermarine at Southampton had the misfortune to be bombed in 1940 and so apart from the initial tooling-up required for the Spitfire - the Hurricane was built using the same techniques already used in the Fury - had other reasons for taking a while to get into their stride. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.215.177 (talk) 18:48, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Realistic comparisons
I've noticed that, at least for aircraft type used in the Battle of Britain, that specification for speed and rate of climb for the German aircraft is for 1944/45 models with newer engines (e.g. Bf109 with DB604, Bf-110 with DB605) versus allied aircraft specifications without boost (water,alcohol injection). The Bf-110s of 1940 Battle of Britain were only slightly faster than the bombers that Hurricanes were targeted at, the fighters usually targeted by Spitfires. The speed and maneuverability of the Bf-110 was comparable to the Ju-88 bomber. The Axis used these long range fighters to attack Malta with poor results against the Hurricane. One of the modifications to aircraft assigned to North Africa was "clipping the wings", shortening the wingspan. Shjacks45 (talk) 19:43, 14 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The Hurricane I was quite capable of fighting the contemporary Bf 109E on more-or-less equal terms and although slightly slower, could turn more tightly, and no Hurricane pilot during the Battle of Britain would have swapped his Hurricane for anything else. A Hurricane I of 1940 could walk all over a Bf 110. That's why the Luftwaffe had to stop sending them over the UK without a Bf 109 escort. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.215.177 (talk) 19:01, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Sea Hurricane photo
There is a photo of the sea hurricane mk Ib formation on the section Sea Hurricanes. However, mk Ib should have arrester hook which I can't see in the photo. Are those planes realy mk Ib:s? --88.192.222.31 (talk) 13:11, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Sea Hurricane IC
There is no evidence of the Sea Hurricane IC with 4 cannon existing beyond 1 (possibly 2) prototypes - references to Sea Hurricane IC with cannons serving (for example in Op Pedestal) are errors. The term 'IC' may have been used colloquially to denote aircraft fitted with catapult attachment points. Unless someone can provide evidence of Sea Hurricane ICs with cannon, I propose to amend that section to reflect the true situation.

Sources: Sturviant, Fleet Air Arm Aircraft of WW2, Hawker Production records, Shuttleworth Collection researchDavef68 (talk) 23:02, 24 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Hi. Sturviant is pretty clear that Sea Hurricane Z4642, flown by Richard Cork during PEDESTAL, was fitted with IC wings. This is also stated by Cull, Malta the Spitfire year and that it was fitted with 4 x 20mm cannon. So the IC may have been a rare bird, but it did exist and it served in combat.Damwiki1 (talk) 01:56, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Additionally, Thetford, British Naval Aircraft since 1912, shows a photo of Sea Hurricane V6741 with a 4 x 20mm cannon wing and an arrestor hook, which Sturviant identifies as a Sea Hurricane 1A.Damwiki1 (talk) 02:34, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Mk.IV / Pierre Closterman
Quote
 * "The Mk IV was used in ground-attack missions in the European theatre until the early days of 1944, before being replaced by the more modern Hawker Typhoon. French ace Pierre Clostermann recalls in his book, The Big Show, that RP-3-equipped Hurricanes were limited to 205mph (330km/h) top speed due to the rockets' drag, and that Hurricane casualty rates against the lethal German flak were extremely high. In particular, Clostermann describes a rocket attack by Hurricanes from No. 184 Squadron RAF against a V-1 flying bomb launch-site on the French coast on 20 December 1943, in which three of the four aircraft were shot down before they could attack. Problem, there was no such operation on 20 December, on 6 January 1944 two Hurricanes from 184 squadron were lost to flak."

Pierre Clostermann was a great pilot, who attracted a fair amount of 'flak' long after he ceased flying ops, not all of it deserved. His book The Big Show is a good read, but not necessarily a 100% accurate account of events. It surely fails the 'reliable source' test, as this discussion indicates. AFAIK he never served with No.184 Squadron, or flew rocket-equipped Hurricanes in combat (he may have 'borrowed' a Hurricane on occasion, just to get a feel of it and compare it to his Spitfire)

This doesn't mean all he says is rubbish; the rockets & mounting rails on a Hurricane Mk.IV would surely add considerable weight, and a whole heap of drag, so slower speed is a given. And it is a simple fact that any aircraft type engaged in ground attack is subject to more flak, and hence a higher loss rate than higher flying missions.

I propose to exclude Closterman from the article, but reinforce the general facts regarding Mk.IV top speed and higher loss rates, which is basic aviation common sense and does not require a specific citation (IMO). WendlingCrusader (talk) 11:40, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

US Navy Hurricanes - Operation Torch
I don't believe this is original research; I have merely gathered together the full story from a variety of sources, not all of which are 100% reliable. There is no doubt the overall story is true, it's just individual details that are sketchy. I'm not sure how to incorporate this into the Hurricane article, or even if it is 'noteworthy'. But it does answer a question that I am not the only one to ask.

US Navy Hurricanes
 * There are two/three photos circulating widely on the internet, two of which show a crash-landed Hurricane wearing American USAAF/USN 'star' insignia. These photos are often identified as 'JS327', although a closer look at the differing landscape proves these must be two different aircraft, plus there is a third photo showing a Hurricane sitting on an escort carrier deck. (and there may be more if a different search criteria is applied)

I used Bing with search criteria 'Hurricane' + 'JS327' to give a selection of images referred to below.

This is my understanding of this rather confused story.


 * The photo with two American personnel examining a crash-landed aircraft is JS327, a Sea Hurricane Mk.IIb (CAN) aka Mk.XII, fitted with 12 machine guns (note; neither mark is listed here on Wikipedia as a Sea Hurricane variant!)


 * The photo with the solitary armed guard is AM277 (not JS327 as some sites claim), a Sea Hurricane Mk.IIc fitted with cannon, wheels-up on the beach at St.Leu, Algeria.

Both aircraft are Royal Navy 800, 804 (or possibly 891) Squadron, despite the US insignia. Neither was shot-down; both aircraft crash-landed 'on the beach' having run low on fuel after failing to locate their aircraft carrier HMS Dasher (D37).

The small print in Operation Torch states ''"Torch was, for propaganda purposes, a landing by U.S. forces, supported by British warships and aircraft, under the belief that this would be more palatable to French public opinion, than an Anglo-American invasion." '', and goes on to mention that Fleet Air Arm aircraft carried bogus US 'star' roundels.

On 8th November 1942, a number of Sea Hurricanes, most or all from 804 sqdn RN, got lost returning from their attack on La Senia airfield in Algeria as part of Operation Torch. Unable to locate the aircraft carriers that they launched from, they returned to Algeria, attempting to find somewhere to land that was now controlled by Allied forces. Some landed safely on a flat Salt lake, to be flown off later after refuelling, some may have ditched in the sea, and at least two crash-landed on the beach. In total, eight of 12 a/c from 804 sqdn failed to return.

From a variety of sources I believe I have gleaned the serials of 10 of the 12 Sea Hurricanes involved in the attack on La Senia, operating with either 800 or 804 Squadron from HMS Biter or HMS Dasher.
 * AG334 Sub-Lt R M Crosley - claimed two Vichy Dewoitine D.520
 * AM277 ran out of fuel/force-landed after failing to locate HMS Dasher - see photos above
 * AM278 shot down
 * AM288 shot down, pilot safe
 * JS226 shot down, pilot MIA/KIA (Sub-Lt D C Greenhill)
 * JS273 Sub-Lt R L Thompson - claimed one Dewoitine D.520, but later crashed his Sea Hurricane into the deck (barrier) on return to HMS Biter
 * JS321 (no further details)
 * JS327 force-landed after failing to locate HMS Dasher - see photos above
 * JS332 shot down, pilot safe
 * JS355 Lt Cdr J M Bruen DSO, DSC - claimed one Dewoitine D.520 - possibly the subject of the third photo showing a Hurricane on a carrier deck, but the source of that final piece of info is less than 100% reliable.

And that's the story of these 'US' Hurricanes.

References

Hawker Sea Hurricane Mk XII JS327 shot down 1942 Oran | World War Photos https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/hurricane/sea-hurricane-mk-xii-js327-shot-down-1942-oran-8th-november-1942/

Hawker Sea Hurricane Mk XII (JS327) Oran, Algeria (Op. Torch). | Aircraft of World War II - WW2Aircraft.net Forums https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/media/hawker-sea-hurricane-mk-xii-js327-oran-algeria-op-torch.30545/

Fleet Air Arm 804 squadron profile. Squadron Database of the Fleet Air Arm Archive 1939-1945 https://web.archive.org/web/20090925100039/http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/squadrons/804.html

NZ Civil Aircraft: Omaka Hurricane Mock Up Repainted (nzcivair.blogspot.com) https://nzcivair.blogspot.com/2013/03/omaka-hurricane-mock-up-repainted.html

Sea Hurricane in Operation Torch | Arma Hobby - news blog (armahobbynews.pl) https://armahobbynews.pl/en/blog/2023/10/23/sea-hurricane-in-operation-torch-40009/

A History of H.M.S. BITER (royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk) https://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/ESCORT/BITER.htm WendlingCrusader (talk) 15:03, 3 April 2024 (UTC)