Talk:Hayley Westenra/Archive 1

older entries
If it wasn't for the fact that I own a copy of the Live in NZ DVD, I would have no idea what "busking" means. And the context of the article doesn't exactly explain it either. I'm going to add a parenthetical to better explain it to those who are unfamiliar with the term. Also I'm going to remove the following bolded statement: "It became the fastest selling debut album in the history of the UK classical charts, beating the record of child soprano prodigy Charlotte Church". I see it as unnecessary, and it's probably best that her direct competitor not be mentioned in the article. It's kind of like saying that they're equals, when fans of both would probably disagree. This is another one of those things where there are two similar artists, and the fans of one probably don't like the other artist or their fans a whole lot. The classic example is The Beatles vs. The Rolling Stones. Or outside of the music realm, Ford vs. Chevy. Once you get connected to one, you feel like you're betraying them even if you just try out the other. If you think I'm crazy, feel free to put it back. :-)

She may, or may not be, good as a singer. Who has decided that she is a "classical " singer - or perhaps the comparison with Charlotte Church is a give away. I have come across her CDs in the classical section of record stores, but I can see no basis for this.

There are other singers who arguably have greater claim to be classical - for example Summer - whose CDs seem like popular/crossover material, but she is known to be a classically trained singer.

I wish people wouldn't misuse what has until the last few years been a reasonably easy to use word "classical". Crossover is not classical, and to say that a CD features in the classical charts because some marketing person or commercial organisation has decided is manifestly nonsense. Classic FM, to name one influence, has done us no favours by distorting our notions of what is/is not classical music. David Martland 22:06, 13 Oct 2003 (UTC)

WHY CLASSICAL 2

I've recently discovered that to get on the "classical" charts an album must have "no background synthesization". Don't ask me exactly what this means. I suppose it is what is often referred to as "studio enhancement". Il Divo and Paul Potts don't qualify, but Russell Watson, Katherine Jenkins, and Hayley Westenra do. It's been suggested to me that the classical purists have been hoist by their own petard, in that the rules were designed to let opera singers sing a wide range of material and still be on the classical charts, but keep out the popsters who used to almost invariably use studio enhancement on albums. The issue behind it, is, I believe, whether the material on the album could be reproduced live. It is interesting that many Westenra fans say she sounds better live than on albums. It may be that she is just much the same whether live or on album, when many fans are used to singers being much superior on their studio albums. If the criteria is classical training (read operatic training) an increasing number of "crossover" singers have had it. Vittorio Grigolo, Jonathan Ansell, Natasha Marsh, Lisa Kelly (Celtic Woman), Katherine Jenkins, etc, etc. Of course faced with a trained operatic singer, the purists start inventing other reasons to exclude them from the "classical" label if they are not from the right set. Natasha Marsh is an interesting one: she has had both full operatic training and taken part in operas where she got rave reviews. Norman Lebrecht was equal to the challenge and confronted with the need to mention her, dismissed her as: Paul Potts touring partner. True of course, and I expected, when she jumped ship for the money and fame that the purists would suddenly discover she wasn't quite such a great singer after all.Stunz (talk) 14:38, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this is a typical purist, opera fan, reaction. Blame the marketing people or "commercial organisations". Saying that a CD features in the "classical" charts is a fact if it does so feature. The rules haven't changed. To be considered "classical" and album must have at least 60% of its content "classical" or "traditional". Do you understand David Markland, that I didn't make the rules, Westenra didn't make the rules, the marketing men didn't make the rules. Go find who did and complain to them.

And what is your definition of "classical"? Have you got one? It has never been easy to define and changed its meaning more than once in the past. Perhaps it is changing its meaning again (yes words do change their meanings and please don't tell me they don't -- this is my area). If it is changing then it is becoming more sensible.

The classcal purists tend to define classical singers on the basis of who they are rather than what they sing. They keep confusing "classical music" with "classical singers". The purist's definitions of "classical music" are some of the weirdest things I have ever seen in my life. Sir Thomas Allen's hilarious rant about a society in inexorable cultural decline because of "pub-singers" (Russell Watson) etc, is remarkably similar to the attacks the literay elite launched at Shakespeare in his time. He had no formal training, was an ale-house playwrite, thought he could bombast out an aria -- sorry blanke-verse -- with the best of "you" (the trained university elite) etc, etc.

What is a "classical singer"? One who comes from the right circle in Hampstead and would fit in well at one of Sir Thomas's tea-parties? Stunz (talk) 23:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

According to Decca Music Group's offical web page she is a crossover. (Decca is a classical lable and that is why she is sometimes considered "Classical."

I grant there is a problem here, but it is not easy to solve, with the public and the press having blurred the issue. What do you mean by "classically trained"? I see that the opera fans on YouTube and elsewhere who critize Westenra often claim that they are classically trained when they have only had a few months voice coaching.

Does one have to be a trained opera singer to be "classical"?

Westenra herself has said in a BBC interview that what she is doing is "not strictly classical" and that she thinks a separate chart for "crossover" like in the US would be better. But she talks about having "a classical base". She started learning the violin when about 6 and could read music at 7 and also plays the piano, guitar, and recorder (the last two or three may be self-taught). She had voice coaching from Dame Malvina Major from the time she was about 10 and her voice coach in London is Mary Hammond. In this respect she is more "classicaly trained" than many of those who continually claim she has no classical technique (she doesn't use or affect and opera style with a great deal of vibrato etc, which maybe what these people notice).

The press and public insist on calling her and other crossover singers "classical". Resistance is futile, they will have their way and all the fulminating in the world from the opera community won't budge them. The audience for Westenra and Co, is an untapped market of people who may not listen to or go to opera, but do not like -- in fact often despise -- what they call "pop" (which means something different now from simply "popular") and "rock". Hence, while conceding she is not "strictly classical", Westenra also denies being "pop". Her fans, the public at large, the press, and the marketing people will not accept that the likes of Westenra, Celtic Woman, etc, are pop. Classical purists who attempt to change this are beating their heads against a brick wall and only have themselves to blame for putting a pejorative connotation on pop in the first place.

I have been told by one young person that Westenra is obviously "classical" because she's always sings with an orchestra in the background. Orchestra = classical, electric guitar and drums = pop/rock.

I'm afraid that it's manifestly nonsense for any of us to think that we own the language and can control its use. In the long run it makes no difference what things are called.

Having said that, some reference to the controversy about "crossover" music and terminology, might be appropriate. I certainly don't think it's an error for her to be called "crossover". Stunz 07:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

 Also on the album is Pokarekare Ana, a New Zealand love song which has enduring popularity.
 * Isn't that only on the special edition of the album? Crusadeonilliteracy 03:08, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. It's certainly on the one I listened to (partly). Check out http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000B17QZ/202-5719576-8691052// Cheers Moriori 07:35, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC)

Pokarekare Ana is on the us version see Pure for more info. Andrew D White 23:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Bio info was gathered from links on hayleywestenra.com Andrew D White 23:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Just a poll over how we should spell NZ's Prime Minister's name. Clark or Clarke?
I have seen evidence to support each side of this argument. The Govement of NZ spells it Clark but many NZ web pages spell it Clarke like hayleywestenra.com. Since this is a page about hayley shouldn't we spell the prime minister's name like she does(or at least how her website spells it)? Andrew D White 02:57, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

No, the PM's name is Clark and we should use the correct spelling throughout. Lisiate 22:50, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Caption madness
I don't think I've ever written "LOL" unironically before but: Hayley Westenra Promotional Picture featuring Hayley laying on her side in the grass looking to her left (the picture's upper right). ...LOL. Don't you think this is kinda overkill as a caption, considering that we can actually see the picture? I don't there's much possibility that we'll misunderstand what "her left" means, not that it matters. rodii 20:58, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I over captioned it for the visually impared. Andrew D White 23:12, 25 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Fair enough… probably a little more detail than the picture is really worth though. Sorry for seeming to laugh at you, it just struck me as funny. Nothing personal. rodii
 * I guessed as much, but it was fairly humourous in the context of Wikipedia, where image captions aren't usually over-captioned. I've removed it now. If we do want such descriptions, they're probably better off on the image description pages. &mdash; Matt Crypto 22:24, 27 September 2005 (UTC)


 * It is not just the visually impaired who like detailed captions: many people adjust their browser settings to turn images off (especially if they have slowish connections). The caption can alert such people to the fact that an image might be worth viewing. Mind, I don't quite see how it is of great importance whether she is looking to her right or her left...

God forbid that I should appear to be a pedant, a stickler, or a prescriptivist, but it surprises me that none of those abominable beasts didn't complain about the use of the word "laying". Unfortunately this is one thing that does grate on me, which means 99% of the American population will annoy me, but doesn't some one out there think it would have sounded better to say that she was "lying" on her side? Stunz (talk) 09:05, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Sourcing
I think that this is sourced enough now.... except for the parts that I have no clue where they were retrieved/may be opinions. They either need to be sourced by their authors or they will be removed. Andrew D White 03:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Adding source
Can someone please add the source, regarding the Unicef song in duet with Morten Harket of a-ha and Hayley Westenra. Here it is: http://www.unicef.org/girlseducation/denmark_25858.html

( I don't know how you add the sources )

Answer
For your future references it is done this way: the tag is required and name is the name in which you will refer to it later in the document so that it doesn't create a new entry every time for the same source. The rest of it is what your source is. Andrew D White 06:59, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed unsourced material
I have removed something an anomious user added since it wasn't sourcecd. If you can provided a good source you can add it back in. All I could find to support this were fourms which are not reliable to say in the least.

In 2007 her songs "Prayer" and her rendition of the Maori folk song "Pokarekare Ana" were featured in the Nintendo Wii video game Endless Ocean (Known as Forever Blue in Japan and Europe)

Andrew D White 17:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I feel that we need to source all material on the page. I have removed all unsourced material to here since no one has sourced it and I cannot find sources for them. It can be returned whenever you source it. Andrew D White


 * You didn't look very hard obviously. It's common sense and the song "Prayer" is even featured in the trailer for the game. I added a source. 71.210.138.237 06:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I am only following Wikipedia Policy for living people. It must be sourced to add to the article. Also just so you know, you might have wanted to look at the post date of that article before you accused me of not looking. That article was pasted several days after I removed the comment from the page. (08/09/2007 posting of article compaired to 4 August 2007 when I removed it to here.) Andrew D White 02:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * See WP:CITE for details on citing to see why I removed until it was sourced. Andrew D White 02:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed Material
She is sometimes referred to as a "young female Josh Groban".

The autumn saw several more solo concerts, mainly in the UK, and a UK Christmas tour called "Christmas Presence" is to follow in December.

In addition to her musical talent, Westenra has become noted for her kind and good nature. She frequently meets her fans after performances and is usually very good about signing autographs and conversing. In fact the title "diva" simply makes her break out into gales of laughter.

(this is kinda back in I found a source that said something simular see the newer version of the article. Andrew D White 01:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC))

She is not abandoning her solo career, however, as a third international album is being recorded for release sometime in 2007. On November 25th 2006 she sang the New Zealand National Anthem at the Millenium Stadium in Cardiff prior to kick off for the Wales verses New Zealand rugby match.

Material to add baised upon peer reviews

 * name of journalist with CTV
 * Good pictures of Hayley that are Creative commons or simurarly licensed pictures (if anyone has any good pictures of her that you have taken and don't mind donating to the cause, feel free to post a link to the file)
 * expand charities section
 * rewrite international success section to flow better and feel less like a "trivia" section
 * as article expands expand intro

Andrew D White 06:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I have to thank the guys at Hayley Westenra International for sending me some pictures to add to the page. These pictures seem to add quite a bit to the page. If any one else has any pictures that can be placed in here without overwhelming the article still feel free to do so. Andrew D White 21:22, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm from Westenra's home town, actually. She used to busk across the road from where I lived. Forget the name of the CTV journalist, this story is not true. It's contrary to Westenra's own version, and I guarantee you that you'll never find the name of the journalist or any dates or info about the supposed TV show. Westenra's version and the one generally accepted as correct is at these two links:

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/features/story/0,,1048358,00.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUpgSyc9OxE

This story is fair enough: http://www.boston.com/ae/music/articles/2004/07/04/at_17_new_zealand_soprano_has_a_voice_to_be_reckoned_with/ The story about the CTV journalist (often it is just "a journalist") doesn't appear in local papers (that I know of) because the question "who was it" would be automatically asked.


 * Well I sourced it better, so go ahead and take a look at the online reprint of the article. Andrew D White 02:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I know that that story is often reiterated. But are we going to take that as gospel, or what she says herself in interviews? Are we just to accept any newspaper story because we can "source it" - as long as it is printed somewhere, are we to cite it as correct? There are at least conflicting stories.

The fan sites think you have it wrong and you do. Hayley, Sophie, and some other kids went busking after doing a show at the Arts Centre and seeing the other buskers getting money. Hayley and Sophie kept it up. Spectators asked if they had a recording and they produced a small run with the help of a friend who gave them $5000 (since paid back). That the people in Auckland offered her a contract "sight unseen", is sort of true. But before she turned 11 she had been in 40 odd productions including one with the Canterbury Opera Company. She had entered many talent quests a number of which had been televised. The people in Auckland probably had a file on her a foot thick. There was no journalist who made a TV show after seeing her busking. She sent one of the 1000 odd CDs to Universal and it was after that that they contacted her. If we are to believe Mr Bartlett he also discovered Yulia, Will Martin, Elizabeth Marvelly, and about a dozen other people. I thought the lessons with Dame Malvina were much earlier than you say too. Still, if you want Wikipedia to be a vehicle for repeating the offical hype, that's up to you. Stunz (talk) 04:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

And Mr Gray Bartlett's claims to have discovered Westenra are dubious to say the least. He played some sort of brief role in management early on but then he annoyed Hayley and hasn't been seen or heard of since. Not in Hayley's publicity. He forced her to go public and contradict him after he complained that the New Zealand Music Awards were biased for not giving Hayley first prize. http://www47.tok2.com/home/nzot/hayley/articlefrom/thepress200307.htm

http://www47.tok2.com/home/nzot/hayley/articlefrom/nzherald20030716e.htm

Is there hard evidence that he arranged the deal with Universal? Stunz 00:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I didn't try to report anything false, I just reported what I found in other articles. See what I have sourced for the exact wording that I based that part of the article upon. I will re-read the articles when I have time to make sure that I have not missread them. Andrew D White 02:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I am not accusing you of deliberately reporting anything false. I'm sure you want it as accurate as possible. I am simply warning against just repeating the Decca or whoever's publicty department uncritically. Stunz (talk) 04:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think I have edited that section to better reflection the concsus. Andrew D White 01:17, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Andrew, can you answer my question. There are two conflicting accounts, obviously. I would simply like to know why you are accepting one account rather than the other. Have you a reason to believe that the story about the journalist and the TV show is more accurate than Westenra's own account? Do you think she is lying to the Guardian?

This is a dreadful piece of writing: "A concert promotion company, under the direction of Gray Bartlett, watched the show and became interested in working with Westenra." It says that a concert production company watched the show. Concert promotion companies don't watch television. I'm not being pedantic, it is just gramatically bad, and, incidentally, not true.

You also say: "and one woman asked the girls if they had ever recorded anything. The woman turned out to be a journalist with Canterbury Television, and she asked Westenra to appear on air.[9]"

The source says: "At one point, the crowd that gathered to watch the trio included a local TV journalist. That led to a TV appearance, the attention of concert promoter Gray Bartlett and, eventually, a deal with Universal Music New Zealand."

The source doesn't mention "Canterbury Television", just a "local TV journalist". Stunz (talk) 09:52, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The following story is correct: http://www.boston.com/ae/music/articles/2004/07/04/at_17_new_zealand_soprano_has_a_voice_to_be_reckoned_with/ Where do you get the idea that the mythical journalist was from CTV? Get me the name of the journalist and the name of the show Westenra appeared on and when it was broadcast. I would have thought that the fact that Westenra herself has given a different account in two interviews at least, and that no one living in Christchurch can remember the show that launched one of their most famous singers may be worth taking into account Stunz (talk) 08:50, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

GA Fail
The article needs a good copy-edit. Feel free to re-nominate once these issues have been addressed. M3tal H3ad 06:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Her first albulm, spelling mistake
 * who has released two successful albums, succesful is NPOV, remove it
 * She became an international star at the age of 16., sixteen, when mentioning age write it out don't put a number
 * References go after full-stops and commas, with no space
 * UK Pop Chart, surely theres a wikilink for that but its named different
 * which was aired on NBC on December 18, remove 'was'
 * Official Website with some streaming samples and other features, just put Official website
 * Noteable Tours and Concerts, merge this section into the body, when you talk about 2004, mention the 'Pure' tour.
 * plans are in place for the release of a third international solo album in March 2007, put that in the body where you speak about 2007
 * 5th of September 2006, should be September 5, 2006
 * On 20 February, should be February 20
 * in the lead this section is choppy, 'She became an international star at the age of 16. Hayley is the fastest-selling debut classical artist to date[2]. She is also a philanthropist and donates much of her time and money to charities, such as UNICEF.' it switches subject each sentence with no flow
 * Images need fair use rationale
 * Westenra was virtually unknown worldwide until she landed a contract with, remove virtually

I am crossing the above out as I feel they have been addressed. I had to copy-edit your critique as you had a typo. Please note that dating in this format is acceptable (Europeans write the day before the month as where Americans do not). Andrew D White 17:34, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Please check Wikipedia:manual of style dates


 * As per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), dates shouldn't use th; for example, instead of using January 30th was a great day, use January 30 was a great day. M3tal H3ad 01:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I have found all dates in this format and fixed them to be within the manual of style. If I have missed any feel free to fix them Andrew D White 01:39, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I have done a bit of a copy-edit as suggested. At this point the article makes sense to me as I read it. I have hopefully made the lead flow better. Andrew D White 05:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

All images on this page now have a fair use rationale. Andrew D White 21:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Misltitled track on Celtic Treasure
I just realised that they wrote The Mummer's Dance instead of The Mummers' Dance. I wonder who's to blame - Decca or Hayley? --77.105.45.127 00:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Clearly the correct spelling would be Mummer's because Mummers' implies that the dance belongs to someone who's named Mummers, although even that would require an 's' to be added after the apostrophe. Dionyseus 01:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, Mummers' would be acceptable, if it is talking about multiple Mummers. Modern use of the apostrophe means that when used on a word that ends in "s", a trailing "s" is not required.  However, I'm going to possibly sound stupid and ask where this term is found, since it does not appear as a track that I see on Celtic Treasure, or even in the article... --  Huntster  T • @ • C 04:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * For you information, this track is on some editions of the cd. I have seen extra tracks on the versions of the CD in stores like walmart. This track can also be found on the UK version of the CD. Andrew D White 04:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Mummer's dance is acceptable in the same way that Reader's Digest is acceptable. I was a member of a Webwriters' group and we had a very long discussion about whether to call it "Webwriter's Network" or "Webwriters' Network". At first blush it must be plural, but it's not that simple. You can think of it as network for the webwriter, or as a network for webwriters. This is a dance for the Mummer, so it's the Mummer's dance, although Mummers' would be equally correct. And it seems, whether for better or worse, modern usage is dropping the distinction between plural and singular with genitives. A google shows both have been used with just about equal frequency. Stunz 08:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You do realize that the track is a cover and should be written as the original artist named the song in the first place. --79.175.103.156 (talk) 19:57, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

RE: Hayley Westenra and Celtic Woman
I just went to www.CelticWoman.com. Ms. Westenra is not listed on the front page, nor is she listed in the history of the band. The biography of the band describes it currently as four vocalists and one fiddler. It appears to have been updated recently, since it mentions the most recent recording. Further, the news section(http://www.celticwoman.com/viewSection.asp?idSection=217) describes Hayley Westenra as joining the North American tour, not as joining the group. It appears that Hayley and Meav are alternating due to Meav's new baby.

I suspect Ms. Westenra's position is kind of in the middle. On the other hand, she is listed as one of the "Artists". It also lists her as having "Joined the Celtic Woman project". My best guess is that Ms. Westenra has too large of an individual career to join Celtic Woman, and is more like a guest artist. I don't have any particular strong feelings one way or another, but Ms. Westenra does not technically appear to be part of the group itself. If you wish to revert it back, I have no objections.Sentineneve 07:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to have to revert, because making that assumption (that because she isn't on the official site means she isn't part of the group) is original research. While the news statement is vague at best, it doesn't state for certain her status with the group, only that she recorded with them for the album and that she was asked to tour. For now, I'd say let the article reflect this uncertainty and remain with the edit that Andrew made. Actually, read this news item, which clearly states that Westenra "became a “Celtic Woman”" and that the other girls were "thrilled that Hayley has agreed to join Celtic Woman".  I believe this should remove all doubts.  I'd chalk the website thing up to them simply putting more energy into touring than updating the main page...at least we have updated news items.  It was also stated in a news item that the reason for Méav and Hayley alternating was that the group was always envisioned as a five-person group, so the alternating fit with both girls' desires to (Méav) be at home with child and (Hayley) work on their personal material. --  Huntster  T • @ • C 07:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I have some difficulty here because I am intending to do a biography of Westenra myself for a Web site and don't want Wikipedia to sound too much like me in case it's thought I just stole it from Wikipedia.

But an encylopedia should state facts, not undefinables. Argument about whether Westenra is or is not a member of Celtic woman rages on YouTube and is futile there as it is here because no one tries to define what a member of Celtic Woman is. The facts are simple. Westenra turned up at the Slade Castle recording made by Celtic Woman and was welcomed by the other girls as their "new member". There was also a biography of her on the Celtic Woman site as a member, although she wasn't added to the front page. I admit I was near astonished that she had "joined" the group, but started to understand when it came out that she was going to alternate with Meave, who wanted time off to be with her child, on Celtic Woman's US Tour. At this stage I was telling people that I thought that this was an arrangement of convenience that worked because Westenra's US tour coincided with Celtic Woman's, but that I couldn't see the arrangement lasting. Recently Westenra has mentioned on a fansite that bochures in England saying that she was going to be a part of Celtic Woman's English tour where a "mistake" because of some "mix-up". Whether any arrangement they had has fallen through altogether, or whether Westenra will occasionally appear with them remains to be seen. From reviews I've seen, it's not clear that Westenra did fill in for Meave on the US tour, and Celtic Woman got some poor reviews towards the end of the tour. It is possible that Westenra's managers feel there is no longer anything to be gained by her being associated with Celtic Woman.

The promotional advantages of their being associated in the first place are obvious. Stunz 09:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

BTW I have since heard that the Slane Castle and the alternating with Meave was a "once and done deal". Irrespective of what the publicity hype may have said, it is naive and misleading to give prominence to a comment to the effect that she "joined" the group. I know of at least one young man who is waiting to see Westenra when Celtic Woman visit his region later this year. He will be disappointed.

Celtic Woman started as a one-off show but was so successful on that occasion it was decided to run it a few more times. It was never a "group" in the sense the word seems to be used here. The likes of Lisa Kelly, Merve Thingmebob, and even Chloe Agnew all had solo careers and obviously weren't likely to be permanent, let alone Westenra whose solo career was even more important to her. Stunz (talk) 09:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

All references to Hayley were indeed deleted from the CW website as stated above. I was one fan who sent a scathing email to the CW website about this deletion, referencing her appearance in the DVD still being promoted on the website, her appearance on the recent US tour, the many CW and Hayley fans who were led to believe she was a member of the group and deserved as much a reference on the page as any former member, and also the fact that keeping Hayley's name associated with CW would not alienate her fans from CW as much as removing all references to her would. I cannot speak for CW, and do not know what considerations were deliberated within the management before or after -- all I know is that within a day or two of my email, all references and links to Hayley and her website were restored. (MRR) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.255.189.18 (talk) 09:48, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The reason for removing Westenra's name from the Celtic woman site is obvious I would have thought. I believe it is gone again. People are still expecting Westenra to turn up at CW concerts. She is not going to; and the Wikipedia article is one of the sources that misleads people and ends in them being disappointed. She sang with the CW at Slane Castle and on their US tour. That's it. That she appeared with them and on the tour with them deserves a mention amongst appearances at the bottom of the article not as though it's a major factor in her career. Can people here not distinguish between marketing hype and reality? She was never a "member" of the group in the sense that the public understand that. CW isn't even a "group" in the way people understand the term. It was more precisely a "show" with different performers taking part as available or when it was desirable. Stunz (talk) 13:59, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Celtic Woman's website was recently redone, and loads much faster, but the info on all the girls has now been moved to the Members Only page, which requires registration. Hayley is still listed on that page, along with a link to her website, but the link to her website on the main CW Links page has been removed, as were those of the other performers. But there are still several pictures of Hayley on the site, and of course her fans still view the site and expect to see info about her on the site, and the CW New Journey DVD still is being sold and distributed, so apparently the CW management obviously are realizing the number of fans Hayley brings to their site. I encourage all Hayley Fans, when they visit the Celtic Woman site, to be sure to view Hayley's page and click on the link to her website, so that the CW folks, when they quantify their statistics, will realize that Hayley is one of the MOST POPULAR of the Celtic Women. MRR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.255.189.18 (talk) 17:52, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Additional evidence that Celtic Woman appreciates Hayley's fans and music: they included Hayley in two songs from the A New Journey DVD in which Hayley joins with the other performers to sing "Spanish Lady" and "You Raise Me Up, on their newest DVD The Greatest Journey.  So they have been using Hayley's voice, persona, and images for three years now, and prominently feature her in the members only portion of their website, so my conclusion is that she was indeed a Celtic Woman prior to and during the filming and staging of A New Journey, and was an "alternate" on the tour for Meav (many touring artists are not able to sing at all venues, and it is common to use alternates), she was a Celtic Woman in the eyes of the public and her CW peers during 2006 and 2007, and with this latest release in October, 2008, and by still being featured on the CW website, the CW organization is NOT saying Hayley is NOT a Celtic Woman. If she wasn't, they could have easily deleted all references to her on the site and not used songs on their newest release that she appeared in. This is a "best of Celtic Woman" DVD, and definitely, Hayley ranks up there with the best of the Celtic Women. MRR

Apparently, on or about Dec. 21, 2008, the Celtic Woman website was revamped to eliminate their "members only" section, and also eliminates biographical info on each vocalist, and all references to Hayley, including elimination of links to her website. Only pictures of Hayley remain, and her voice on their DVD and several of their CDs, but music selections from those are no longer playable from the website. The bottom line is that Hayley and Meav and Orla are GONE for good, apparently. MRR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.255.189.11 (talk) 05:56, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Look, I'm not saying that HW was not a great asset to Celtic Woman, or that they do not appreciate her or her fans. I am saying that an encyclopedia should state facts. I am not arguing about whether she is one of the best singers to ever have sung with the "group" or not. I am saying that arguments about whether she is a "member" or "joined" the "group" are meaningless unless those terms are clearly defined.

I don't see how the way in which the offical hype describes the situation, or how the public perceive it should influence Wikipedia. I am not suggesting that Westenra was any less important to the assemblage than anyone else. In fact she was probably the biggest name they have ever had associated with it, and one of the biggest drawcards. It is said that she left earlier than was planned. At one stage she was being advertised as touring with CW and also scheduled to do clashing solo concerts. Questioned publically she discribed the advertising material listing her sheduled appearances with CW as a "mistake". A cynic might observe that none of the little mistakes that have occured have been of the sort that would do CW any harm at the box office.

And I'm not suggesting that Westenra should be considered any more or less a "member" of the "group" than anyone else associated with it. I'm simply suggesting that the whole CW phenomonen be described in ways that more accurately describe its nature. Stunz (talk) 13:52, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of whether or not she is truly a "member" of Celtic Woman, CW's 'best of' album, The Greatest Journey, does not actually feature Hayley. If you look at Wikipedia's own page on TGJ, specifically the 'performer' section for the songs Mo Ghile Mear and Spanish Lady, you'll see that Hayley isn't listed. Those are the same recordings as the A New Journey CD, which didn't include Hayley on those songs either. I've edited the page to reflect that. (I did keep the reference to the TGJ DVD - I don't own it myself so I can't check, but I doubt that they completely re-filmed Mo Ghile Mear and Spanish Lady to omit her.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.66.3.108 (talk) 04:21, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks like good edits, thanks for making the fixes. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 01:14, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Hayley Westenra Vegetarian
Andrew D White, Upon your edit summary: "'actually she isn't any more see the article Hayley Westenra in charge of her career which is sourced in the article.'"

And as I said on your (talk): Send me the link because I have 3, but if you have a valid current link please show me-- Migospia † ♥  03:51, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

You have not provided links or any other information. The links I have that states otherwise: I will revert your edit unless you can provided other wise reason to have reverted mine-- Migospia † ♥ 07:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * http://www.richardogdenmanagement.com/pages/richard_biog.htm
 * http://www.hayley-westenra-international.com/dhtml-pages/html-2004/reviews/20040528_ClassicalBritAwardsRM.htm
 * http://www.listener.co.nz/issue/3404/features/4453/wish_upon_a_star.html;jsessionid=061201BB4F1D8677DFF9651A7A216EC8
 * http://www.goveg.com/feat/sexiestveg2007/


 * Yep my info is current as of 28 April 2007.
 * http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1501119/story.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=10436564&pnum=2
 * Also I had given you my reason. You just didn't research the article I sited. I am not making a statement about choosing to be a vegetarian but do not want this article to have any fallicies in it. Andrew D White 14:09, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * To be honest, the title of the article you referenced ("Hayley Westenra in charge of her career") didn't pull up anything via Google and isn't linked in the article. The article you just gave is titled "Hayley Westenra - 'I'm a tough chick'", so there's some understandable confusion.  However, I do think that answers the vegetarian issue. --  Huntster  T • @ • C 14:28, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The online edition has a different name from the printed edition. I referenced the printed edition because I feel that the printed version has more merrit. Andrew D White 14:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps, but don't be annoyed if someone questions the veracity of that printed edition because they have no way to independently confirm it. At least provide a link to the online version. --  Huntster  T • @ • C 15:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I was annoyed because you said that I didn't provide a source. ;) I am over it now, I just do not want a falcity on any of the pages that are on my watchlist. I'll keep the online option in mind. Andrew D White 15:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Normally where there is two coflicting sources we must add both-- Migospia † ♥ 22:42, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I removed it earlier because I never felt that it was important to menchone that she was vegetarian and because she is no longer one (I guess thats up to debate...). Since it is important to you I will fix it so that it flows a bit better with the article. Where you placed it makes no sence at all. I will also change the references to look like the other ones currently in the article. Andrew D White 23:57, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Its a tad more tidy now but the first sentence sounds a bit weak. Andrew D White 00:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC) I think that it sounds a bit better now and it doesn't even break neutrality towards the subject. Andrew D White 00:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Clarity
Your current version makes no sense: "Until reciently it was uncontested that Hayley was vegetarian/pescotarian, and even is currently nominated for PETA's 'Sexiest Vegetarian' for 2007. [28][29][30] [31] However recently, the New Zealand Herald, has reported that she used to be a pesco-vegetarian but is not anymore for the sake of practicality. Hayley told them in an interview with one of their correspondents, 'I'm completely bursting the bubble now, aren't I? That's that ruined. Ha.' [32]"

Firstly you spelt recently wrong and it makes no sense at all.-- Migospia † ♥ 00:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * So how exactly doesn't it make any sence? (if you cannot tell, I really have no clue at all what you do not get of my wording) Andrew D White 00:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I hope that is better. I tried to cover more of what was in the article. I also reworded it a bit. Andrew D White 01:18, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * After a few hours more work, I think that it is more sensible. Andrew D White 03:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I decided that giving equal weight was appropriate. Westenra is known as a vegetarian, verified by multiple sources, but the one source saying she has now eaten meat (for a specific reason) requires detailing. LessHeard vanU 10:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with your edit it seems to be quite fair to me. Andrew D White 13:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I would prefer that she was reported to be a vegetarian. She is certainly very much into healthy eating and living, and avoiding meat is part of this, but I don't think she was ever a strongly committed vegetarian in the way the Peta people are. Stunz 09:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that wording could work. Before it is changed, I feel we better get a few more people to agree to the wording since it seems to be a bit of a touchy subject. Although discuessing any lifestyle choice seems to be rather taboo nowadays. Andrew D White 01:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

The editing conundrum over the wording 'pitch perfect'
Well, I think I can resolve why I said this by quoting my source. At 7 minutes 6 seconds into the feature Hayley Westenra on Hayley Westenra Live in New Zealand (see article for sourcing on DVD). Gerald Westenra says, "It was her first public performance and her teacher afterwards said to us 'Do you realize she's pitch perfect?'." Forgot to sign... Andrew D White 18:27, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, one of the editors involved left this message on my talk page:
 * I'm not sure if this is the correct way to respond to your editing, but here goes. Regarding the Hayley Westenra edit about having "perfect pitch" and your editing comment: Undo; how is it clear? It is specifically stated as such in the book? What page in the book? Be more clear or it will be considering original research. The incident referred to in the article is described in the book Hayley Westenra: The World at Her Feet on page 25: "Hayley's class teacher came to me and said, "[...]I've never heard a child so tone true. She's perfect" and later on the same page quoting a friend of Hayley's mother (i.e., not Hayley's class teacher), "There is this wee little thing with such an accurate voice [...] It's not hugely strong, but she just has perfect pitch." It is evident that the intent here is comments on a 6-year-old's unusual pitch accuracy and vocal quality. Nothing about this suggests that Hayley was observed to have "perfect (or absolute) pitch," and I know of no other sources (Hayley's interviews, writings, etc.) that ever claim she has absolute pitch. The writer of the main article simply misinterpreted the family friend's reported comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jpbrownca (talk • contribs)
 * To be honest, I'm not sure how to take it, and I'm not really familiar with such terminology, but to say that it is "evident" seems to me to be original research...making an assumption based upon what is written. Now, if you read otherwise, then it'll be that much easier to write a proper citation, now that the book and page is fully provided. I just don't want to see something that is contentious to be tossed in with no citation. --  Huntster  T • @ • C 19:15, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

the editing conumdrum about "pitch perfect"
"Pitch perfect" and "perfect pitch" aren't interchangeable. "Perfect (or absolute) pitch" is a technical term in music that refers to the ability to identify or generate a specific pitch without referring to an external pitch source (e.g., someone plays a note on a piano and you can say, "That's a C sharp," or someone says, "Sing a G flat" and you can do it; I had music teachers in college with perfect pitch; it was rather maddening to those of us who didn't have it). I'll reiterate that nowhere in any other authoritative source about Hayley Westenra (e.g., interviews with her) that I'm familiar with has she ever mentioned having absolute pitch. That's the sort of thing that is both relevant for a musician and unusual enough to be worth mentioning. The obvious way to avoid any controversy in the main article is just to remove entirely the mention of having perfect pitch. Jpbrownca 03:18, 14 July 2007 (UTC) J. Brown


 * The next question then is, does Gerald Westenra remember the exact wording from his conversation with the teacher well enough for us to be arguing about the semantics of the wording. Would a better and more accurate way of frasing it be,
 * After the show, a teacher who had watched the performance approached her parents and informed them that their daughter was pitch perfect.
 * Andrew D White 01:17, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Since the sources say "pitch perfect," the change suggested above makes sense and doesn't introduce a suggestion of Hayley having perfect pitch, which isn't supported by any sources that have been mentioned. Jpbrownca 05:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

A teacher's comment about perfect pitch is likely to simply mean that she was very good at singing in tune. Reporting that a teacher made that comment is fine. Absolute pitch is as described above. According to a friend who plays in an orchestra, it can be pain for those with it, because most orchestras and singers will drift a bit and someone with absolute pitch will be continually annoyed. It is better for a musician to have good relative pitch. In an interview that I heard Westenra herself said she could identify most notes played and sing most accurately without an external pitch source, but was not infallible. "I don't have perfect perfect pitch" was the way she put it. According to Wiki under this topic there are degrees of "absolute pitch" (I know it's illogical). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stunz2 (talk • contribs) 03:32, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The link to absolute pitch was re-added without explanation. But, agreeing with the preceding comment, I've again removed it. Cosmic Latte (talk) 14:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

GAC review
Thank you for the work you've done on the article so far. The article is well referenced and moderately comprehensive, but I've placed the GAC review on hold as it currently fails the "well written" criteria. I suggest approaching members of the League of Copyeditors to help improve the prose. These are some examples of what needs fixing: Let me know when you want me to review the article again. Epbr123 20:07, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The lead should mention in which year Pure reached #1 on the UK
 * "Miss Westenra has received awards for her contribution to the music of New Zealand and elsewhere in the world." - the "New Zealand and elsewhere in the world" is a bit messy.
 * "Westenra is the fastest-selling debut classical artist to date." - the album was a "debut", not her
 * "Westenra joined the Irish group Celtic Woman and is currently touring with them." - using the terms "currently" and "to date" are meaningless as the reader won't know when they were written. Instead, say something like "and is touring with them, as of August 2007"
 * "Her musical career began at the age of six" - I think the word "career" only applies to paid-work
 * "She went to school at Cobham Intermediate." - this sentence is too short and out of place
 * "encouraged Westenra to pick up a musical instrument" - "pick up" is too informal for an encyclopedia
 * "a demo album done for friends and family; only about 1000 copies were made" - "done" is too informal. Does she have 1000 friends and family members?
 * "Westenra and her sister, Sophie, busked in the Christchurch streets" - why did she busk? For fun, money, practice?
 * "journalist with CTV" - say Canterbury Television instead of CTV, to save readers having to click the link
 * "she had been offered a recording deal before she even meet with Universal New Zealand" - "has been"→"was", "meet"→"met". Who are Universal New Zealand? Are they the earlier mentioned concert promotion company?
 * "producer of her live tv special" - "TV"
 * "In November 2004, Westenra performed in a concert for Her Majesty The Queen, Prime Minister Tony Blair, Prince Charles, Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice and President George W. Bush." - a little more detail is needed about the concert, considering the people present. Where was it and what was it in aid of?
 * "until she landed a contract" - too informal
 * "she was featured on the motion picture soundtrack for The New World" - in what year was this?
 * "Ending 2005, she made an appearance" - there's no such time as "ending 2005"
 * "Westenra visited Ghana to publicize her latest project" - what was her latest project?

Listed on Wikipedia:WikiProject League of Copyeditors/proofreading. Begining another copyedit myself in the meantime. Andrew D White 03:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Pass. Epbr123 01:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Copyedit
In the section Beyond her initial success there is a paragraph "She starred as Maria in the 2007 recording of West Side Story. The album of the 2007 West Side Story recording will be released on 30 July.[27] On 28 July, she will star in Woburn LIVE 2007, where she will preform a selection of the music of West Side Story with the other recording artists from the 2007 release.[30]"

This is clearly in the future tense but these things ought to have happened by now.

This is my only remaining copy-editing concern. Cricketgirl 06:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Changed tense to past. Andrew D White 01:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Looking at pictures from her autobiography
I was looking at some of her pictures in her autobiography, and I was thinging that one of them might be nice to have on the page. The picture of her preforming the littlest star. My only thought is that adding that may add too many copyrighted pictures on the page. Anyone have any thoughts? Andrew D White (talk) 16:30, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Music featured in computer game Endless Ocean
I'm not sure where to add information about "appearances" in computer games in this template, but it might be relevant to have this article link back to Endless_Ocean, the soundtrack of which is provided by this artist. Additional reference: http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/HibwEvcAuiAvMKvZZulIaP_CPGfFjLel#features Dave Brown (talk) 03:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps I misunderstand what you are asking for, but this material is presented in Hayley Westenra. This is about all that needs to be covered on this topic. — Huntster (talk • email • contribs) 08:17, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow!
Regarding this newly added paragraph:


 * "During numerous newspaper, magazine, and television interviews, Westenra repeatedly credits her parents for providing her with encouragement to develop her talents as well as the freedom to expand her horizons. She also profusely expresses her love of her family, and pride in her religion, her country, and its citizens who have supported her career. She does not smoke or use drugs, does not engage in promiscuous behavior, has healthy eating habits, supports protection of the environment, and recognizes her responsibility to advocate on behalf of disadvantaged children around the world."

Ms Westenra is an excellent singer and an amazing person. However, in the context of an encyclopedia, IMO this paragraph goes too far in lauding her. Perhaps it might be part of a Nobel Prize presentation speech if she were being given one, though even there it might be considered over the top.

Wanderer57 (talk) 13:35, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Heh, yes, this has been removed. Aside from being unsourced, it is exactly as you say: over the top. — Huntster (t • @ • c) 18:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

It's a very silly paragraph because she certainly does not "repeatedly" credit her parents, or "profusely" express all these other things. Miss Westenra is a born diplomat who adapts well to different circumstances. I don't mean this unkindly, I respect it, and believe she handles the press brilliantly, in the main. But what comments I have seen her make on religion, for example, are few and far between and seem to me to border on the evasive. She claimed when pushed on the "Hour of Power" to be a member of the Christchurch Cathedral congregation. This is very convenient, since it can't really be denied (you can go there without being known to anyone else). Anyway we are agreed the paragraph is way over the top. A comment she did make in one interview was, "you never know, I might surprise you all". I think she was probably joking, but one never knows. Stunz (talk) 14:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

High importance
Jemaine Clement, Bret McKenzie and Peter Henderson are rated Top Importance, and I have never heard of them (not that that means anything). Hayley is well known internationally. She is also a UN ambassador. Surely she rates High, if the others are Top. Please discuss. Thanks. Wallie (talk) 20:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Edit
I altered a piece about the award from the Junior Chamber International (Jaycees)in accordance with this story. It was for "oustanding young person", not "influential woman".

The story: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=10399804 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stunz2 (talk • contribs) 11:48, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion
Re following sentence: Her pursuit of a musical career began at the age of six, when she was cast in the lead singing role of "Little Star" in the Christmas play[5] at her school, Cobham Intermediate.[6]

I don't know what school she was going to at age 6 but it wasn't Cobham Intermediate - that's a school for 11-12 yr olds. Could someone more in the know please edit. Cheers 125.237.47.75 (talk) 23:18, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, the school is incorrect - it would be Fendalton Open Air School, certainly could not be Cobham because it is for intermediate aged students! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.74.7.66 (talk) 09:41, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Can anyone find any information about her appearances on McDonalds Young Entertainers? I remember her making her big break by winning that, but there is no reference to it here. I haven't done any editing on Wiki before, so not sure how to go about it myself —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.236.183.80 (talk • contribs) 08:27, 25 April 2010