Talk:Hayreddin Pasha

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved per request. - GTBacchus(talk) 04:57, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Khair al-Din Pasha al-Tunisi → Hayreddin Pasha – per WP:COMMONNAME

I prefer Hayreddin Pasha, but Tunuslu Hayreddin Pasha is also acceptable.


 * "Khair al-Din Pasha al-Tunisi" -Llc 1
 * Tunisia + "Khair al-Din Pasha" -Llc 20
 * Tunisia + "Haireddin Pasha" -Llc 10
 * "Grand Vizier" + "Haireddin Pasha" -Llc 20
 * 1879 "Hayreddin Pasha" -Llc 6

-- Takabeg (talk) 11:55, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name of article, name of person
The article was titled Khair al-Din al-Tunsi. The ending "al-Tunsi" signifies he was from Tunis, Tunisia. The "Khair al-Din, I understand, is Arabic, which corresponds in meaning to the Turkish, Hayreddin. His name was changed on Sept. 28. The choice here is: which of these two names, Arabic or Turkish, should be used for the article?

The person was born a Circassian in 1822 and raised in Circassia. When perhaps ten years old, as an orphan he was taken to Istanbul. Tunisian officials in 1839 took him to Tunis.

In Tunis, he entered service for the government of Tunisia, slowly rising in the ranks of government officials from 1839 until 1877. Arabic had then become the more favored languge in the Tunisian state. In 1846 he accompanied the Bey to France. Later, he made trips to Istanbul to represent the Bey, in 1859, 1864, and 1871. He was the first President of the Grand Council regarding the new Constituion, and he led the International Finance Commission. He had written a well-known treatise in Arabic, which advocated modern government reforms within the Islamic tradition, published in 1867. Thereafter he served as Prime Minister of Tunisia during the years 1873-1877. He established Sadiqi College. His person, his ideas and vision, are still remembered and admired by Tunisians.

His career in Tunis at an end, in 1878 he arrived in Istanbul. Quickly, the anti-reform Sultan Abdulhamid appointed him Vizier of the Ottoman Empire, an office he held for eight uneventful months (Dec. 4, 1878 to July 28, 1879). During his short term, other Ottoman officials made fun of his inability to speak Turkish very well, and called him "that Arab". (Hanioglu at 35; Brown's introduction at 30 to Abi Diyaf). It was said the reason for his appointment was to show that a non-Turkish person could become an Ottoman Vizier. (Kinross at 553). He retired, and died in 1890; he is now interred in Tunisia.

In short: Circassia, probably first 10 years; Ottoman, 10-17 and 56-68 (19 years); Tunisia, 17-56 (39 years). The literature about him, of course, should be consulted. Following is a list of books which discuss his career from various points of view, e.g., Tunisian and Ottoman/Turkish, plus a third category. The list, which is not scientific, begins with the style employed for his name (in English or English translation, except for two 'Tunisian' works in French). Of course, it is the English language usage which controls, per Wikipedia standards.

#1A TUNISIAN 'POV':
 * Khayr al-Din
 * Abi Diyaf, Ithaf Ahl al-Zaman bi Akhbar Muluk Tunis wa 'Abd al-Aman (written 1862-1872), translated as Consult Them in the Matter (2005).
 * Khaireddine Pacha [French]
 * Guellouz, Masmoudi, Smida, Saadaoui, Les Temps Modernes (Tunis 2010).
 * Khayr al-Din
 * Khayr al-Din, Aqwam al-masalik fi ma'rifat ahwal al-mamamlik (Arabic 1866; French 1867, 2d 1875; English [1874]; Turkish 1878); recent translation as The Surest Path (1967).
 * Kheredine [French]
 * Kheredine, Homme d'etat (Tunis 1971), his writings in French edited by Mzali and Pignon.

#1B TUNISIAN 'POV' BY AMERICAN AUTHORS AND A LEBANESE AUTHOR:


 * Khayr al-Din
 * Anderson, The State and Social Transformation in Tunisia and Libya (1986).
 * Khayr al-Din
 * Brown, The Tunisia of Ahmad Bey (1974).
 * Khayr al-Din Pasha
 * Green, The Tunisian Ulama, 1873-1915 (1978).
 * Khair al-Din al-Tunsi
 * Perkins, ''A Histsory of Modern Tunisia (2004).
 * Khair ad-Din
 * Ziadeh, Origins of Tunisian Nationalism (Beirut 1962).

#2A TURKISH 'POV':


 * Hayreddin Pasha of Tunisia
 * Hanioglu, A brief history of the late Ottoman Empire (2008).

#2B TURKISH 'POV' BY AMERICAN AUTHORS, AN ENGLISH AUTHOR, AND AN AMERICAN AND TURKISH AUTHOR:


 * not listed
 * Itzkowitz, Ottoman Empire and Islamic Tradition (1972).
 * Khair-ed-Din
 * Kinross, The Ottoman Centuries (1977).
 * Hayreddin Pasa, Tunuslu
 * Shaw & Shaw, ''History of Ottoman Empire & Modern Turkey, v.2 (1977)
 * not listed
 * Vucinich, The Ottoman Empire (1965).

#3 OTHER 'POVs':


 * Khair al-Din Pasha
 * Abun-Nasr, A History of the Maghrib (1971).
 * Khayr al-Din
 * A. Hourani, ''Arabic Thought in the Liberal Age, 1798-1939 (1962).
 * Khayr al-Din
 * Abdallah Laroui, The History of the Maghrib (Paris 1970; 1977).

As part of the Sept. 28th name change to Hayreddin, the following changes were also made:


 * Removed: Tunisian politicians [Category]
 * Removed: Prime Ministers of Tunisia [Category]
 * Removed: Flag icon per Circassia.
 * Removed: Flag icon of Tunisia.
 * Changed: the Arabic style of his name as it appears on a widely-used '20 Dinar' note of Tunisia. (I know of no Turkish coin or Lira note which honors him.)

When addressing the choice between rival names to be used in Wikipedia, their most common use in English is the determining factor. The person here is apparently far more well-known in the English-speaking countires for his career as a very important figure in Tunisian history, rather than for his short, obscure career in the Ottoman Empire.

Thus, the listed books count nine (9) about Tunisia (including one dedicated exclusively to him), and five (5) about the Ottomans (two of which appear to have no reference to him). This reflects the fact that he is simply far better known in Tunisia than in Turkey. Accordingly, it is not surprizing that Khair al-Din, Khayr al-Din, Khair ad-Din, Khair ed-Din are used in the above English-language books eleven (11) times, including all three from the more neutral Other books listed, and one from a book about the Ottomans. The Hayreddin usage totals only two (2), both from books about the Ottomans involving Turkish authors. Of the two works in French, Khaireddine and Kheredine are used.

Apparently Khair al-Din al-Tunsi would thus clearly be more familiar among those English-speakers who know his career. Of course, most general Wikipedia users will have no prior knowledge about this person or his story. A suggested solution is to create a REDIRECT using "Hayreddin Pasha" which could be used if he should be mentioned in Ottoman articles. Elfelix (talk) 03:59, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Double
It is the same person as Khaireddin (Turkish statesman): that article should be merged in this one. Talmid3 (talk) 10:53, 7 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Agree. Elfelix (talk) 20:17, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The article Khaireddin (Turkish statesman) is based on the entry "Khaireddin" in the Encyclopaedia Britannica (11th ed., 1911) at volume 15, page 769; yet its point of view is clearly dated. That entry was written when Tunisia had become a Protectorate of France, and partly reflected a British imperial policy (in calling him a Turkish statesman) dating back to the 19th century when Britain had hoped to keep a then autonomous-but-financially-precarious Tunisia free of French control by encouraging its formal but nominal reassociation with the Ottoman Empire (e.g., Perkins, A History of Modern Tunisia (2004) at 13). Now of course, Tunisia, independent a half-century, and most peoples of the world in general, including those of Britain and Turkey, have long rejected colonial bias and corresponding imperial points of view. Hence, the great honor paid by modern Tunisians to Khair al-Din as one of their own, for his major role in their country's history, while he enjoys no like status in modern Turkey. Elfelix (talk) 01:18, 21 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Any intended merger should be in accordance with the above documented statement or, if not, should first address this issue giving citations to sources that are relied upon. Elfelix (talk) 15:22, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Proposed merger
Any merger should take account of the above Name of article, name of person and be titled accordingly. Any intention to do otherwise should first address this issue and wait for a reply. Also, the same procedure should be recognized regarding the content of the merger, per the reply to the above posting Double. Elfelix (talk) 15:22, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

a provisional merger
The article Khaireddin (Turkish statesman) contained nothing of value except a copy of the 1911 Britannica material, so I have replaced it with a redirect to this article. The Britannica text is still available in the history there or here, for example (search for KHAIREDDIN). SamuelTheGhost (talk) 11:25, 3 March 2013 (UTC)