Talk:Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference

HMC member=public school?
Can we have a source on this equation "often" being made? Or even of some notable source making it, for starters. Alai 04:10, 29 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd go as far as to say it is without doubt what makes a school a public school. Regardless, I'd say a source is unneccesary, it's a minor thing and to set that kind of precendent would lead to every slight piece of infomation being followed by a source link. Grunners 17:53, 1 October 2005 (UTC)


 * So the grammar schools on the list are often considered "public schools"? That's obviously not the historic usage, so when did it come into being?  It's not that minor a point;  given how short the content here is here aside from the lengthy list, and given the definitional and usage controversy at the public school (UK) article, it has some significance in context.  Even if there are only low-grade examples of this, I'd at any rate appreciate a talk-page citation or two.  Googling for "Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference" and "public school" together gets relatively few hits, and reading past the first couple of pages of wikipedia mirrors, the first I could find that says anything like this is http://www.marijuananews.com. Alai 05:36, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

HMC or GSA membership is a necessary element for a school to be considered a 'Public School', but it is not a sufficient definition. All Public School headmasters/headmistresses belong to HMC (or GSA the Girl's School equivalent), but not all HMC (or GSA) schools are Public Schools. There is the even more pejorative distinction between 'major' and 'minor' Public Schools, but no SHMIS (Society of Headmasters and Headmistresses of Independent Schools) school would be considered even as a minor public school. Westminsterboy 11:30, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

There is a useful discussion at http://www.publicschools.co.uk/   Westminsterboy 13:00, 6 October 2005 (UTC) I thought that was too good - it's largely a mirror of the Wikipedia article cited above. Westminsterboy 15:26, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

It's pretty clear it's necessary, yes, though a citation would be good for that, too. I'm inclined to go with a more cautious wording, but leave the citation-request in place. Alai 04:52, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

INTERNATIONAL MEMBERS
Since a number of the International members were being added I have supplied the complete list of schools. I think it should be all or none, but would accept a consensus that it should be none. Also, if the International list is added should the Additional Members be listed too, or is the link to the HMC website where they can be found sufficient?--Westminsterboy 19:37, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Twelve accepted the invitation
I have added a list of the original 13:
 * Twelve accepted the invitation: Edward Thring (Uppingham School), (Bromsgrove School), (Bury St Edmunds), (The King's School, Canterbury), (Felsted School), (Lancing College), (Liverpool College), (Norwich School), (Oakham School), (Repton School), (Richmond), (Sherborne School) and (Tonbridge School). (Source: IndigoSky Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference'' August 22 2002 on the everything website

Three things that would be nice to have. --Philip Baird Shearer 15:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) another more reliable and reputable source(s) for example http://www.bromsgrove-school.co.uk confirms their headmaster was there.
 * 2) What were the names of the other headmasters?
 * 3) What happend (and when,) to the schools in the list which are no longer members of the HMC.

As the number of books electronically scanned by Google grows, so some more details are available easily:

"...colleagues since of the sixty or seventy invited only fourteen accepted the invitation to attend the inaugural meeting at Uppingham. The fourteen who accepted were: Dr Daniel Harper of Sherborne; Dr Steuart Pears of Repton; Dr James Ind Welldon of Tonbridge; Dr George Butler of Liverpool College; Rev. Albert H. Wratislaw of Bury St Edmunds School; Rev. Thomas H. Stokoe of Richmond School; Dr George J. Blore of Bromsgrove School; Rev. Dr William S. Wood of Oakham School; Dr John Mitchinson of King's School, Canterbury; Mr William S. Grignon of Felsted School; Dr Robert E. Sanderson of Lancing College; Dr John B. Dyne of Highgate School; Rev. Augustus Jessop of Norwich School and the Rev. Alfred Carver of Dulwich College. 14 Of these, only twelve attended for the whole conference. Dyne attended on the second day and Carver did not show up at all. Those who did attend the Conference were stalwarts since the weather was particularly inclement judging from exchanged comments between Mitchinson ..."(The educational world of Edward Thring: a centenary study‎ - Page 100, By Donald P. Leinster-Mackay, Published by Falmer Press, 1987)

Note that Dyne of Highgate School was there for only one day and Carver of Dulwich College accepted but did not show up. So the source currently used is also supported by a more reliable source.

"and 'Origins of the Headmasters' Conference', Times Educational Supplement, 7 Oct 1966, p. 775. Bedford, Berkhamsted, Birmingham, Blackheath Proprietary College, Bradfield, Brentwood, Brighton College, Bristol, Bury St Edmunds, Canterbuty, Charterhouse, Cheltenham College, Christ's Hospital, City of London, Clifton College, Dulwich, Durham, Epsom College, Eton, Felsted, Gloucester Cathedral School, Guernsey Queen Elizabeth College, Guildford, Haileybury College, Harrow, Highgate, Ipswich, Isle of Man King William's College, Jersey Victoria College, [Kings?] College (London), Lancaster, Lancing Collage, Liverpool College, Liverpool Royal Institute, Magdalen College School, Malvern College, Manchester, Marlborough College, Merchant Taylors', Norwich, Oakham, Oswestry, Radley, Repton, Richmond (Yorks), Rochester Cathedral ... Westminster ..."(The cloistered élite: a sociological analysis of the English public boarding ...‎ - Page 21 By John Wakeford, Published by Praeger, 1969) --PBS (talk) 14:07, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

List of schools
I see the list of member schools as both unnecessary and problematic. Unnecessary because the main website contains the list of member schools. Problematic because although member schools don't change that often the heads do and keeping them up-to-date and accurate is difficult. In addition it is easy to see the list of schools from the category (Category:Member schools of the Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference). I would therefore propose removing entirely the list of UK and international member schools, but obviously leave the list of chairs as this is a shorter list. --Bob Re-born (talk) 11:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I disagree; we would remove such a list if the schools were not independently notable, just as we remove a list of local divisions of an organization, but if they are notable, they belong on a list. Lists and categories are complementary: the list can contain material (such as the references) that cannot be in a category.  It could usefully contain other data also, such as the date of joining.  There is an alternativve: to have it as a stand-alone list. If the problem is that it overshadows the rest of the article, this would deal with it.  DGG ( talk ) 21:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * OK. Do you think that the list would be better, easier to maintain and less prone to error if it only contained the list of schools and not the headteachers? --Bob Re-born (talk) 21:47, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * My opinion was sought so --both feet forward. The title of the article is wrong- the important bit is Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference Schools. The bods that the governors employ to become caretaker and High Master are not notable- but the latter does get to go to the bun fight. The organisation has tremendous influence. What the list needs to show is which of these schools are permanent members- and when the others joined and left. To me the number on roll, and geographical location is significant and could be easily maintained, and notable alumni (just list nobel laureates, kings, sheikhs, presidents and prime minister). I would place these in table form, and an image of the uniform could liven up the page visually. --ClemRutter (talk) 22:32, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Any other opinions? If the list is to stay, which I am happy to accept, then shouldn't the heads' names be removed as they are more difficult to maintain than the list of schools, and therefore the list is more likely to be accurate most of the time? --Bob Re-born (talk) 11:30, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Strangely, as I look today, Winchester College is missing from the list. Having so many separate references to different parts of the list seems to me to violate Occam's Razor. Would anyone like to check over the list, with just one reference, namely http://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/ as the pagination is internal to that URL? I guess I could if no one else volunteers, but I really don't want to check over the principals. Simon Grant (talk) 08:31, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

"40 oldest schools"
As a continuation of the above, a newish addition to this page is the "list of the 40 oldest schools", which doesn't appear to have any references. I mean, from a purely self-interested note, Wisbech Grammar School which is an HMC school dating from 1379 isn't there, so makes me wonder how accurate the rest of the information there is. Rob (talk) 20:34, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 11 one external links on Headmasters' and Headmistresses' Conference. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120308052440/http://www.hmc.org.uk:80/hmc6.htm to http://www.hmc.org.uk/hmc6.htm
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20140808061041/http://www.hmc.org.uk/about-hmc/membership/additional-membership/ to http://www.hmc.org.uk/about-hmc/membership/additional-membership/
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20080705132909/http://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/a-c.htm to http://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/a-c.htm
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120414184513/http://www.hmc.org.uk:80/schools/d-g.htm to http://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/d-g.htm
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120215074114/http://www.hmc.org.uk:80/schools/h-l.htm to http://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/h-l.htm
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120415190743/http://www.hmc.org.uk:80/schools/m-p.htm to http://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/m-p.htm
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120213123101/http://www.hmc.org.uk:80/schools/q-s.htm to http://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/q-s.htm
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120415190824/http://www.hmc.org.uk:80/schools/t-z.htm to http://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/t-z.htm
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150510133919/http://www.rougemontschool.co.uk:80/ to http://rougemontschool.co.uk
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20080315000031/http://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/international.htm to http://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/international.htm
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20120206223415/http://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/additional.htm to http://www.hmc.org.uk/schools/additional.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 23:50, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

History
"The Conference dates from 1869 when Edward Thring, Headmaster of Uppingham, asked sixty to seventy of his fellow headmasters to meet at his house to consider the formation of a 'School Society and Annual Conference'. Fourteen accepted the invitation, and twelve were present for the whole of the initial meeting:"

Not so. The Conference was the idea of Mitchinson of Canterbury. He organized the first meeting of headmasters, where 25 odd met at The Freemasons' Tavern on 02 March 1869 to respond to the danger of state interference following the Taunton Commission of the previous year. Thring was unenthusiastic and nearly didn't even attend. With the second meeting he became thrilled enough to suggest the old blokes met annually and then offered the hospitality of Uppingham over Christmas. The poor turnout for the Feast of Christmas had a number of reasons, such as some preferring to spend Xmas with their families, cost, and Thring being an old bore. Claverhouse (talk) 19:36, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Making a more factually accurate page
Hi, I work at this organisation. Not all of the information is correct, what can we do to make it accurate? Also, the information can change quite frequently, so would it be possible to make it so it has greater longevity? My colleague previously tried but was blocked - we didn't realise at the time how it all works. Can you help? Thanks in advance. 157.231.125.106 (talk) 14:09, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for asking. Can you suggest on this Talk page the changes you would like to make, and provide sources? See WP:REQUESTEDIT. Thanks. Tacyarg (talk) 14:18, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Adding that, re longevity, would it be sensible to remove the name of each headteacher and just list the school? Tacyarg (talk) 14:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for getting back to me. I will make a list of the changes we'd like and get it back to you asap. 157.231.125.106 (talk) 14:58, 27 January 2023 (UTC)