Talk:Healing Through Creativity

And just to cut short the argument that this is notable based on the links at the bottom, it is not. The links at the bottom contain no information relevant to this article and thus do not count as notable 3rd parties. Andante1980 (talk) 06:51, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

These links down the bottom certainly do relate to the article, the State of West Virginia government website link is the location of this organizations major annual event, as is the West Virginia State University website so yes they do relate, AfterSilence support forum website, Pandora's Aquarium support forum website, "Voices of Strength" audio documentary sexual abuse and domestic violence website are all related / affiliated organizations to HTC as mentioned in the article and the Rape Abuse & Incest National Network link is obviously relate as it is the US biggest rape support network, and sexual abuse recovery is a major focus of the HTC organization, it is also important to note that these links are listed in other sexual assault related articles such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault so it is appropriate when an article is based around an organization that has a major focus around sexual assault to list these 3rd parties, and it is also important to note that these organizations work in with each other as they have similar focuses, which is actually pointed out in the article, so listing them at the bottom is appropriate.

This article was written because it is of significant public interest, and is written in an impartial manner. This event is one of the biggest events of its type in the world, it has connections to AfterSilence and Pandy.org which are the number one and number two sexual assault online support groups in the world, and in the context of Wikipedia I believe that it is appropriate to have this organization listed, I would like to point out articles such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anvil_Hill_Coal_Mine which features a coal mine which hasn't even commenced production yet, yet this article has been listed on wikipedia for a long period of time, yet this is a well established organization which runs an annual event for survivors of horrendous crimes and or circumstances, and event which attracts international attention, the event contributes to that local micro-economy significantly during the time the event takes places, with many people traveling vast distances to attend the event, and also has year round online services for survivors.

HTC is a non-for-profit organization, which is of significant public interest, more so then the Anvil Hill Coal Mine I believe, as it affects people over international borders, and as I said it is believe to one of the biggest, if not the biggest event of its type in the world, it has a small army of volunteers and I believe that it should be included on Wikipedia. All the major supermarkets in the world are listed on Wikipedia, so I see no reason why the major survivors organizations for survivors of rape, trauma, cancer etc can't be included on Wikipedia, if nothing else it will give those who aren't survivors of these crimes / circumstances information about survivor events, e.g. for research, school projects, insight etc.

The organization is big enough and of significant enough public interest to constitute an article on Wikipedia and I don't understand why anyone would believe otherwise, also I don't see how this article is written like an advertisement at all, it is actually written in a very similar manner to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coles_Supermarkets article which has also been a long standing article on Wikipedia, and because this is Wikipedia users are allow to contribute to help develop articles so if this article is in any way bias I am sure wikipeda users will soon iron that out, however I don't believe it is bias at all. Feel free to contact me about anything I written here, I also feel any move to delete this article would be like saying Coles shouldn't be listed on Wikipedia.

The HTC organization, like Coles, is a major organization in its focus area (the only difference being the actually focus area, Coles focus area is selling groceries, HTC is assisting "survivors" in their recovery) and I believe is of significant interest to the general public and as such shouldn't be deleted, I believe it would be un-fair to "survivors" of such crime, illness and circumstances to not recognize a major organization in this area on Wikipedia. (talk) 19:44, 27 July 2008 (AEST)

status
As reviewing administrator, I dont know if it is notable or not, but it makes some assertion thatit is, so it is not a speedy. A it'scontested, no point in using prod. Try afd if you like, but I have no idea if it will or not be considered notable there. DGG (talk) 10:32, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Response
Thank-you for your speedy review. This is a notable article, obviously it is hard to provide sources of this information, as much of it is "general knowledge" within the "survivor" community, and also as you can understand this is a very sensitive topic, obviously when you are talking about an organization that deals with trauma and rape victims we don't wish to, for safety reasons, provide solid identification of individual people.

However there is evidence of the that this is a notable event, through the HTC myspace which is referenced, I believe my references are sufficient enough to establish notability, I would also like to point out again the Anvil Hill article which has been on Wikipedia for a considerable amount of time and has no references http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anvil_Hill_Coal_Mine yet has never been challenged and it has been on Wikipedia for some time.

I believe that saying that this survivor event is not notable would just be unfair to the event and the survivor community as a whole, here are photography of the event:

http://www.healingthroughcreativity.org/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=73&catid=8 http://www.healingthroughcreativity.org/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=59&catid=9

which help prove it's notability, also if you would like to look at the organizations Myspace, and the Myspace of AfterSilence the 2nd largest survivor support site in the world with over 9000 members and you will see that these two organizations are affiliated with each other:


 * http://www.myspace.com/after_silence
 * http://www.myspace.com/healingthroughcreativity

And the claim of AfterSilence being the second biggest support site in the world can be virfied by the fact it has 9000 member, which can seen on the website www.aftersilence.org/forum, it is second to pandys.org/forum... both of these sites have information about HTC on them, however you must be a member to view them, this is because of member safety issues

So I think that this evidence point that yes what I have claimed about HTC is true, and it is worth noting in wikipedia

I would like to refer to these two Wikipedia rules:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Use_common_sense
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules

I believe to not recognize this as noteworthy would be very unfair to these types of organizations, they are representing people who have come through horrendous crimes, illnesses or accidents, and I feel that they deserve to have an article on Wikipedia and I think I have provided enough evidence for this. Please feel free to contact me about this. However I think common sense needs to be taken in this situation, this organization how clearly done enough good work in the community (may I add the international community) to be considered "note-worthy" as a non-for-profit organization on wikipedia to justify an article on it.

I would also like to say that in writing this article I was following the example show by these articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Take_back_the_night http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoonWalk_%28charity_event%29

which all have information similar to that I have posted about HTC and its related annual event and website, and also list various website associated with them, as I have done, so this is not for advertisement purposes as suggested by one of the tags put on the article.

Also following the example of these articles which are seen as noteworthy for Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbate-a-thon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Courage_to_Heal

I believe that HTC is a noteworthy organization to have an article on in Wikipedia. Johndwood (talk) 14:00, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Proof of notability
Under wikipedia guidelines for an organization to be notable it must:

Non-commercial organizations

Organizations are usually notable if the scope of activities are national or international in scale and information can be verified by sources that are reliable and independent of the organization. In other words, they satisfy the primary criterion above.

Which can be proved here:

http://www.healingthroughcreativity.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=701&pid=3597&st=0&#entry3597

Which is a recording of a radio interview, so it is independent of the organization, and it says in the interview that there is someone from Healing Through Creativity from Australia which proves that that the scope of activities are of international scale, and the organization has grown hugely since last year, so it meets the wikipedia guidelines for notability.

Johndwood (talk) 14:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

It also states "The best way to address this concern is to reference published, third-party sources about the subject" on the notability warning which has been done, 3rd party sites to HTC which make reference to HTC have been reference at the buttom of the article, as such the issue of notability has been addressed Johndwood (talk) 15:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Reason for removal of tag
Administrator said: As reviewing administrator, I dont know if it is notable or not, but it makes some assertion thatit is, so it is not a speedy. A it'scontested, no point in using prod. Try afd if you like, but I have no idea if it will or not be considered notable there. DGG (talk) 10:32, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The administrator said he does not know if it is notable or not and until wikipedia guideline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_policy it says If in doubt as to whether there is consensus to delete a page, administrators will normally not delete it.

The administrator does said he is in doubt if there is notability or not, the article has been improved to show notability, e.g. 3rd party references, in text citation, etc, so under the wikipedia guidelines given above and when comparing this article to other article examples given above, I believe that under the common sense rule, it is reasonable to conclude that his article is notable.

The article will be further enhanced over coming days to improve the information given on it and when this is done the other tags will be removed to reflect these improvement, however at this stage I think it is safe to say this is a notable article. Johndwood (talk) 11:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Reason for removal of tag
Based on the above articles, I have made the HTC article in line with the neutral view point shown in the above articles, e.g. I have used the above articles on this discussion page as example to make my article from a neutral point of view, I assume seeming the above articles are consider neutral that this article will also be consider neutral.

Johndwood (talk) 11:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

External links cleanup
I have trimmed out most of the listings from the "External links" section per the External links guideline. I understand that some of them were originally listed as references, but with no clear indication of what facts they were sourcing. I may go back and try to salvage some if possible, but in case I don't, this a link to the relevant article version. Dancter (talk) 16:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)