Talk:Hearst Castle/Archive 1

Movie company
If someone knows the name of Hearst's movie company, please add it to the article's third paragraph:


 * "...screening of one of the latest features of Hearst's movie studio."

Thanks! :-) &mdash;Frecklefoot 21:36, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Tasteless Trivia
The IMDb has some trivia on "Citizen Kane." The movie, based on Hearst, states that "Rosebud" was Hearst's pet name for Marion Davies' clitoris. I don't know if this is true, and it's kind of tasteless, so I don't know whether or not to add it to the article. Anyone else? &mdash;Frecklefoot 21:36, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * I was told that Rosebud was actually the name of his sled.

-tentnytoes

Um, that was the name of Charle Fosters Kane's sled (from Citizen Kane). &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&amp;mdash; &#91;&#91;User:Frecklefoot&#124;Frecklefoot]] &#124; &#91;&#91;User talk:Frecklefoot&#124;Talk]] 02:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Citizen Kane, docudrama?
I can't believe whoever wrote the end referred to one of the greatest films of all time as a "docudrama"

Citizen Kane is not about Hearst
It's about lots of people, an amalgamation of folks like Hearst, Howard Hughes, and others. In the film, "Rosebud" is the name of the sled, which reminds Kane of his mother, who abandoned him at a young age. Whether or not Orson Welles used the name of Hearst's mistress's body part as the word in his film is debatable and not really encyclopedic (no one knows for sure.) I don't know how to change this in the entry, but Xanadu is not necessarily a "parody" of Hearst Castle. It may be its inspiration, or even just part of its inspiration, but to categorically say that Xanadu IS Hearst Castle is most likely wrong. Thor Rudebeck 19:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * WR Hearst thought that Citizen Kane was a direct attack on him, and refused to run ads of the movie in any of his papers, leading to it becoming a huge flop. But, whether or no CK was an analogy of Hearst, we should change the wording&mdash;"parody" is clearly wrong. &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 18:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Wrongly stated?
i would say that xanadu from citizen kane is not a "parody" of the Hearst Castle, as the article in its current form states. BBnet3000 18:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Photos licensing wrongly stated?
Shouldn't the images in the article to be subject to a different license since Hearst Castle is technically owned by the Hearst Corporation and any photography taken there are not to be used for any commercial purpose: Hearst Castle.Org - Kingxii 08:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I own the copyright on my photos unless I sign it away, and I didn't sign it away. The legal "reasoning" on that page is laughable; they can control who enters and with what equipment, but they can't just take ownership of creative work done by somebody while on the premises. What if I take a picture of a dandelion that happens to be growing there? For that matter, what if the spirit of the place moves me, and I write a poem while sitting on a bench? Do they magically acquire the copyright to that as well? That's why they have the whole bit about tripods and such; they know they don't have any legal basis to appropriate other people's work, so they fall back on closing the gate to photographers obviously laden down with equipment. (That's another way you know they're bluffing - wouldn't it be more lucrative to let the photographers in, then confiscate the images on the way out and sell them?) Stan 15:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * IANAL...however, it is my understanding that if the photos are to be used for commercial purposes then they are well within their rights to restrict such usage. They are free to require photographers to obtain a site release (much like a photographer would obtain a model release from a model for a commercial shoot). Keep in mind that their rights would only pertain to commercial use of the images, however. They have no ownership claim on any image simply because it happened to be made at the castle. (Having said that, as noticed by the parent to this entry, they are free to regulate access to the site, and they can turn away anyone for any reason, including the camera gear that person happens to be carrying. As they're physically throwing you out, however, it's my understanding that any images you manage to snap on the way would be yours for non-commercial use.)


 * So the question of licensing raised here is: does posting an image on wikipedia constitute commercial use? I believe use here does not constitute commercial use because the photographer does not and cannot profit from the image. Moreover, given that Hearst Castle is supported by public funds, I'm uncertain as to whether their policies on commercial photography are even enforceable. Any lawyers out there care to weigh in? Severoon (talk) 00:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Marion Davies should be included on this page
Marion Davies should be included on this page. Her wikipedia entry states in part: "By the mid-1920s, however, Marion's career was often overshadowed by her relationship with married media mogul William Randolph Hearst and their fabulous social life at San Simeon and Ocean House in Santa Monica.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Davies —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nowax (talk • contribs) 19:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

Hectometers
To make the tours more accessible to international visitors, the recorded tour guides on the bus ride from the visitor center to the castle give the areas of the castle grounds and Hearst's estate in "square hectometers", rather than the more common "square kilometers."

Is there evidence of this? And how exactly would expressing area in square hectometers make it more accessible to international visitors? --skew-t 21:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Julia Morgan in the lead paragraph
Julia Morgan's name was recently added to then deleted from the lead paragraph. The removal was made in the name of taking out redundant material, but of course the lead section is supposed to be a brief statement of what will be covered in more detail in the rest of the article. The lead section should note why the building is important, what it's known for, why there's even an article about it. A building of this scale almost always includes the architect in the lead section. This building in particular wouldn't have taken the shape it did without Morgan's influence. Why wouldn't Julia Morgan be in the lead? Binksternet (talk) 15:42, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * i reverted it. 2 reasons, the History section being directly below the intro contains a very similar paragraph to the addition that was made, and seems rather redundant reading the same words twice in 15 seconds. second to be honest it was a toss up on which paragraph should be modified to make the name fit twice and it was easier just to revert. - 4twenty42o (talk) 07:08, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, I getcha. Maybe there's a way to compose it so that it doesn't seem like such a redundant appearance in 15 secs. I'll think about it. Binksternet (talk) 07:18, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * lemme know if i can help... - 4twenty42o (talk) 03:27, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

California State Route 1?
One of the pictures on the page has the caption "Hearst Castle as seen from California State Route 1. But looking over the location of the castle and the route of CSR1, the road doesn't go anywhere near the site of the castle. Am I missing something here or is that a mistake by someone? DragonFury (talk) 16:23, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Good catch! Hearst Castle is definitely not visible from Route 1. The photo was taken from the southwest and at a slightly lower elevation, maybe by telephoto lens from Hearst Castle Road, or from a more proximate hillside path. Binksternet (talk) 16:56, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I was just playing with Google Earth myself, and it seems clearly visible from Route 1. Not only that, but the relative position of the buildings is consistent with a view from the road about 1 km northwest of the turnoff.  I also note that some of the jitteriness in the image is consistent with an extreme telephoto shot.  Stan (talk) 17:11, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Hearst Castle itself is not visible from Highway 1.

The visitor center and parking lot is though. Those were built by the state when they opened it for tours. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cdurand (talk • contribs) 15:04, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Presence of the History of the Abbey of Santa Maria de Ovila in Hearst Castle...
... has been deleted because is not notable enough, "has been hinting at plans that did not work out, not notable enough" says [[User:Binksternet]]. I think -as anybody can read in the link I put as reference- is on of the most beatiful (and sad) stories of Hearst project. And it's no exactly a plan that did not work" because the Abbey travelled half world and are now still trying to get its proper and old form (and their rests can be seen still in Europe (As you can see in German (Kloster Óvila) and Spanish (Monasterio de Santa María de Óvila) wikipedias.--Pablomfa (talk) 19:26, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The abbey deserves its own article: Santa Maria de Ovila. The abbey is notable, and its story should be told. In its story, the actions of Hearst and his intention to use the stones somewhere on the grounds of San Simeon figure very large. Hearst made himself a dominating influence in the abbey's fate. However, I deleted this bit from the 'castle' article because the abbey did not get rebuilt, or its stones re-used, and there was not much of a hue and cry over the absence from San Simeon. The abbey and its stones are not a crucial part of San Simeon's story, in my opinion, but the reverse is true: Hearst is crucial to the story of Santa Maria de Ovila. At most, I would expect to see in this 'castle' article a paragraph discussing Hearst's purchases, and the folly of some of his decisions, the abbey being one example. Binksternet (talk) 20:34, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * You are right. --Pablomfa (talk) 22:27, 30 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I wrote the article Santa Maria de Ovila and found Pablomfa was somewhat misinformed, that Hearst Castle has no part in its history. The Hearst folly Wyntoon is what the monastery's stones were intended for. Binksternet (talk) 18:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Why was it donated?
There is no explanation as to why the Hearst family donated the estate. Was there a dispute over the property? We need the reason. 2602:306:C485:DB00:F854:EAEB:A1E4:7FAD (talk) 19:29, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
 * None of Hearst's children could afford to maintain it as a private home. I'll find a source and put it in, in time. KJP1 (talk) 18:33, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Lead photo caption
Not sure what it's supposed to say, but the phrase "The Casa Grande is the 60,treasure-foot centerpiece of Hearst Castle" is obviously broken. 76.238.180.214 (talk) 00:09, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Never mind, and switching to desktop mode I found it, an edit in May that just changed "645 square" to "treasure", either odd vandalism or just a random mobile edit. 76.238.180.214 (talk) 00:16, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Water Reservoir location
The Castle's reservoir mentioned in the fourth paragraph of the design section is on an unnamed hill, not on Rocky Butte. I lived in the area between 1953 and 1979, so the misplacement of Rocky Butte was easy to spot. Rocky Butte is south of Pine Mountain. I believe the error may be due to Google Maps which also places the name "Rocky Butte" on the location of the Castle's reservoir, in error.

USGS Topo Maps examined free at TopoQuest.com Pebblestone 7.5 Quad shows Rocky Butte in Range 8 E, Township 26 S, Section 24. Pine Mountain also in same Township and Range, but in Section 10. The San Simeon 7.5 Quadrangle does not divide that section of the Hearst Ranch into Township and Range, but the Reservoir is shown about 120 deg 9 min W and 35 deg 41 min N on an unnamed hill with elevation 1790 feet. Castle hilltop is show about 1600 feet.

A search of Geographic Names Info Service (GNIS) at gives these coordinates

Rocky Butte (Pebblestone Shut-in map): 35 39 55 N  and 121 03 34 W (Elevation 3422) Pine Mountain (Pebblestone Shut-in map): 35 41 24 N and 121 05 40 W (Elevation 3586)

The GNIS site also uses the name Pine Mountainfor another location on the San Simeon quadrangle, but with elevation 1125

entire paragraph lacks citations
This entire paragraph has no citations, " One condition of the Hearst Corporation's donation of the estate was that the Hearst family would be allowed to use it when they wished. Patty Hearst, a granddaughter of William Randolph, related that as a child, she hid behind statues in the Neptune Pool while tours passed by. Although the main estate is now a museum, the Hearst family continues to use an older Victorian house on the property as a retreat – the original house built by George Hearst in the late 19th century. The house is screened from tourist routes by a dense grove of eucalyptus trees to provide maximum privacy for the guests. In 2001, Patty Hearst hosted a Travel Channel show on the estate, and Amanda Hearst modeled for a fashion photo shoot at the estate for a Hearst Corporation magazine, Town and Country, in 2006."

I'm also interested in knowing - does the State pay the cost to maintain the private Victorian house that the Hearst's continue to use? 2602:306:CFC7:CB00:0:0:0:45E (talk) 17:45, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. The original house built by Hearst's father appears to be part of the, very large private estate surrounding the castle which is still owned by the Hearst family. Or, more likely, the Hearst Corporation, as W.R. was in the habit of using companies; St Donat's Castle was bought by the National Magazine Company. But you're quite right regarding the lack of citations and none of this should really be there without supporting refs. KJP1 (talk) 18:41, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Now confirmed and in. KJP1 (talk) 16:20, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Art collection – references
Here are some references from and myself, for use in expanding the article. Binksternet (talk) 22:46, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Carol J. Everingham (1981) The Art of San Simeon: Introduction to the Collection ISBN 9780960699605
 * In 2008–2009, LACMA put together a Hearst exhibit showing 170 items, calling him "the greatest individual donor to the Los Angeles County Museum."
 * There's a book titled Navajo Textiles: The William Randolph Hearst Collection ISBN 9780816514670 which describes 185 Navajo rugs, serapes, blankets and more, many of which were displayed at San Simeon until Hearst gave the textiles to LACMA in 1942.
 * Some news articles talk about Hearst Castle in 2009 giving back two paintings that were seized by the Nazis and then bought by Hearst.
 * In 2011, a painting of the Madonna and Child was borrowed from Hearst Castle and studied by the Getty.
 * For ten months in 2016–2017, an art collector's tour was offered at Hearst Castle, with tickets set at $100. A local reporter wrote about this tour in the New Times.
 * In 2017, the Guardian UK estimated that Hearst Castle only shows 10% of Hearst's art.
 * In March 2018, the mystery was solved regarding who painted the Annunciation hanging in the Assembly Room..
 * Today's list of artworks from the Hearst Castle Art webpage:
 * Annunciation painting by Bartolomé Pérez de la Dehesa
 * Venus Italica statue by Antonio Canova
 * Neptune painting by Simon Vouet
 * Two Sekhmet figures and two Sekhmet heads from ancient Egypt
 * Continence of Scipio, a 16th century tapestry from Italy
 * Ceiling in Casa del Monte designed by Julia Morgan
 * Orchid Vase by Tiffany
 * Sarcophagus with Nine Muses, Roman ca. 230 AD
 * Virgin as Young Girl, Spanish statue from the 17th century
 * Relief of Saint Paul, from about 1525
 * Covered jar in the form of a face, French Art Deco
 * Cippus, Roman monument ca. 80 AD


 * A year ago and earlier, the webpage also showed the following items:
 * The Three Graces, statue copy by Antonio Canova ca. 1800s
 * Marriage Chest, Spanish furniture, ca. 1600
 * Merman mosaic, Roman from the 3rd century
 * Wellhead, possibly Italian Renaissance, previously owned by JP Morgan
 * Berdago Harlequin lamp from Austria

Architectural style
The main text uses Spanish Colonial Revival architecture, the infobox uses Mediterranean Revival architecture. I think the former is more accurate? KJP1 (talk) 11:02, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


 * There was an initial intent to build Spanish Colonial or Mission Revival architecture, as Morgan had done for the Los Angeles Herald Examiner headquarters, but the eventual hodge-podge of styles at San Simeon was more complex. Arrol Gellner writes in Chapter 1 of Red Tile Style ISBN 978-0670030507 that Hearst Castle was a "palatial fusion of Classicism and Mediterranean architecture... Despite her [Morgan's] thorough drilling in Classicism, it would be these later Revivalist works that secured her reputation. Casa Grande had in fact already transcended the Mission Revival era and instead belonged to the more archaeological Period Revival styles that gained favor after the Panama-California Exposition of 1915." Binksternet (talk) 16:47, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * (I include the ISBN of Red Tile Style for reference, not as a recommendation. There's only one paragraph about Hearst Castle in the book; the great majority is about other buildings and vernacular styles using Spanish roofing tile in the American Southwest.) Binksternet (talk) 16:54, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Very useful, and I’ll certainly use Red Tile Style. It may need a separate section on the style(s). A related thought - you’re going to have to check my spelllings! I’ll be littering it with Brit:Eng, which would hardly be appropriate for America’s greatest castle. KJP1 (talk) 17:49, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * - B, have popped that in. Do you have a page number? Many thanks. KJP1 (talk) 16:59, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Map or plan
Do we need a map/plan? Of the house? Of the estate? Casa Grande isn't too complicated a layout, until you start going up. Then the levels/mezzanines start to become a bit confusing. Must not forget the Americans don't do a Ground floor. KJP1 (talk) 17:06, 10 February 2019 (UTC)


 * A site plan would be great, as would any architectural representations of the buildings. Binksternet (talk) 18:39, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Casa Grande or La Casa Grande?
Is the correct style Casa Grande, Casa del Monte etc. or La Casa Grande, La Casa del Monte, or doesn't it matter? I think MoS deprecates "the", as in The Assembly room, in titles but what about in the text? KJP1 (talk) 18:38, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Hearst used the slangy shorthand Americanized terms devoid of the Spanish definite article. Most of the sources follow suit, especially the official website hearstcastle.org which never writes "La Casa Grande" on any page, just "Casa Grande". Binksternet (talk) 23:07, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Wikitionary - note to self
How to get Wikitionary links into the article, and ? KJP1 (talk) 10:55, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Zoo
There's a nice quote in Loe (1994) abut the calamitous loss of wildlife at the zoo in the early 30s but it will fit better in History than Architecture (pp=80-81) KJP1 (talk) 14:48, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Can you copy the quote here? Binksternet (talk) 16:32, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Will do. KJP1 (talk) 19:24, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
 * "After a few months four giraffes were taken ill and died, which Hearst termed a 'calamity'. A few months later Hearst (informed) Morgan that eleven more animals had died. 'I would say they represented some $8,000 to $10,000 in value. If we are going to lose $10,000 worth of animals a winter, we can well afford to put up more shelters'."

Design section
Note to self. Early part needs more cites and clarification. KJP1 (talk) 19:24, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Morgan obituary in the NYT, this week!
This is a nice snippet for the biography section.
 * "Hearst Castle architect Julia Morgan finally gets a NY Times obituary — 62 years after her death" - . KJP1 (talk) 17:27, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Fantastic work
Greatly appreciating all the work done recently by. Inspiring!

I will be considering what more to bring to the page, issues of completeness and balance, reading flow and clarity. Binksternet (talk) 14:41, 25 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Did Morgan spell it honor or honour in her note to Hearst? I don't have the Kastner source and cannot see a snippet online. Binksternet (talk) 14:45, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, my BrEng. It is, of course, "honor". I'll let you pick it up in the ongoing copyedit of my limey spelling. Really glad you like how it's shaping up. I'm quite pleased with how it's turned out so far. It's such an interesting and iconic building, it warrants a decent article. Look forward to progressing it to whatever timetable suits. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 16:23, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Further reading section
At some point, we need to look at this. If they're worth having, we should probably be using them. If they're not, they should probably go. Not sure, for example, that a 40-year old recipe book will contribute a great deal to an understanding of the castle. On the other hand, Hearst and Morgan's correspondence certainly would. Why ever's that not available on Amazon?KJP1 (talk) 15:58, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

New topic
You have no consensus for your wordsmithing. Per WP:BRD, please discuss lest we get to WP:ANEW. Chris Troutman ( talk ) 17:48, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * - I find this very odd indeed. I expand the article from this, to its current 200+ cite state, something you describe as "wordsmithing", and over the placement of a "the", you accuse me of "actively taking info away from the reader" and threaten ANEW. The very paragraph above tells you there are three guest houses, it doesn't need repeating in the next para. Go right ahead and take it to ANEW if you wish but I fear you will appear ridiculous. KJP1 (talk) 18:03, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the other edits you've made; clearly, I only object to your insistence on the and your prior contributions don't earn you a free pass. I am an editor, too. I'm not threatening anything, but I grow tired with the disregard some editors show for objections to their preferred wording. Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 18:24, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * - then go right ahead. KJP1 (talk) 18:28, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

William Randolph Hearst Memorial State Beach
B - do you happen to know, is the pier shown here, William Randolph Hearst Memorial State Beach, the pier/wharf constructed by WRH to transport material to the castle? KJP1 (talk) 15:21, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The way I remember it from a tour is that the facilities at the tiny port of San Simeon were strengthened improved for the traffic caused by Hearst. I don't know who or when. Binksternet (talk) 18:41, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
 * No, the current pier was constructed around 1954 (by memory), after Hearst's death, but a few years before the house and beach area were donated to State Parks. It's been fixed up since then, but is basically the mid-50s pier. You can see stubs of the pilings for the old pier at low tide, in winter, in front of the white Spanish-style warehouse. See our photo. --Pete Tillman (talk) 07:14, 14 February 2019 (UTC), local resident
 * And there's still quite a lot of Mr. Hearst's artworks & stuff in that warehouse, left over after his death. We bought our house from a former Curator at State Parks. She inventoried the contents some years ago. --Pete Tillman (talk) 07:18, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
 * - many thanks, most helpful. Yes, reputedly there is a considerable quantity of Hearst purchases still in their packing cases in New York and California. The tithe barn of Bradenstoke Priory was discovered in 1960 and, in 2017, was supposed to be re-erected as a restaurant. KJP1 (talk) 08:13, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Kastner writes that WR's father George Hearst had the pier with its 1,000-foot wharf built in 1878, to move lumber, farm goods and mining equipment. Binksternet (talk) 22:03, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Infobox title
In the infobox, the name "Hearst San Simeon Estate" appears. Why that, instead of the familiar "Hearst Castle"? Is there a general rule about using the NRHP infobox template that we must use the name assigned by the NRHP? Kastner writes on page 13 of her 2000 book that, "in the scholarly world 'Hearst Castle' [is] the name most commonly used for the estate since the thirties..." The NRHP application lists La Cuesta Encantada first as the historic name, and "Hearst San Simeon State Historical Monument" second as an alternative name, but the NRHP chose to formulate the name as "Hearst San Simeon Estate". Just a minor concern. Binksternet (talk) 21:57, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
 * - Not sure whether there is a US convention on this. I certainly don't think there's a policy. Certainly Historic England titles, the UK equivalent, are sometimes very wordy, X Abbey and the adjoining precinct wall, for example, and I'd certainly truncate these to the more commonly known and used forms. KJP1 (talk) 06:09, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

1976 bomb
We could list some of the important events that have happened at Hearst Castle, one of them certainly being a bomb blast set by allies of the Symbionese Liberation Army on February 12, 1976, in retaliation for Patty Hearst testifying in court, denouncing the SLA. The terrorists threatened more bombs and demanded $250k. The explosion caused $1M damage to the Casa del Sol guest house, tearing a hole in the wall, three minutes after a large tour group passed by. The case was never solved. Binksternet (talk) 21:57, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
 * - I'd not heard of that. Certainly notable and a strong finish to a little about Patty Hearst. I don't know what would be the most notable post-Hearst period items: major museum and visitor attraction with big visitor numbers; the early 21st century decade-long drought; the land deal with the Hearst Corporation, although that's more about the wider estate than the castle; the Spartacus filming; and I suppose Lady Gaga must be in there somewhere! Hope you're keeping well. KJP1 (talk) 06:15, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Hard coded image sizes
According the guideline WP:IMGSIZE, we should not be setting exact image sizes. pointed out the guideline last month, but was reverted. The reason for the guideline is that many readers will see the article on mobile devices, and the images should be able to scale to different sizes for different display platforms. Take a look at the article on your phone and see what happens.

For the panorama shot, let's choose between scaling the image with "upright", or scrolling the image left and right with "wide image". Try looking at the images below on multiple devices, or at least decrease your window size and refresh. Binksternet (talk) 16:15, 4 November 2019 (UTC)




 * - Hmmmm, they all look good! I think my preference would be for B. But D does look great. It shows the façade of Grande, and two of the cottages very well, and has a nice glimpse of the colonnade of the Neptune Pool. Can it be shunted ever so slightly right, getting just a bit more of the façade, but not losing the colonnade, as its "standard setting"? It's a sad truth that the further to the right from the Casa Grande façade one looks, the worse the building's architecture is! This has been doubly useful, as I've just clicked that the History section has no images. That needs to be rectified. Best, KJP1 (talk) 17:29, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I believe we cannot center the photo, or shift it by a percentage in "wide image" mode. The two choices for image alignment at Template:Wide image are left-to-right scrolling or right-to-left scrolling. I don't see a choice for starting the scrolling in the center, or starting the scrolling at a particular point.
 * I am looking at this talk page on my phone and I see that the A choice scales to fit the page. It's only on larger screens with smaller windows that the whole window must be scrolled.
 * On my phone, B and C are about the same, but the 90% frame size is not an improvement, so C is out.
 * My vague preference is for most of the readers to see an actual panorama, even if it's really small like on the phone. The whole panorama (or most of it anyway) is required to give the impression of buildings spread over the peak of a hill. When the reader is looking at more detail they are missing the larger impression. I would vote for A because of this. No matter which we choose, anyone who is curious about the details can click on the image and get it larger. Binksternet (talk) 17:59, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
 * One option we have is to trim the panorama and show the reader a version without so much foliage on the right side. Binksternet (talk) 18:01, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Absolutely agree we need a panorama. Shots of individual structures/features just don't give the scale of the whole. Very content with A - it shows the Casa Grande façade well, and if it also shows the dreadful tower of the South Wing, well that's part of the building too. Am now sourcing some History images. What I can't see is a Roaring Twenties party shot with celebrities. One of those would be good. I'll try a double Morgan/Hearst for the Collaboration section. KJP1 (talk) 18:15, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Churchill and Hearst
Winston Churchill, then out of office and no doubt needing the money badly - he had a huge income from his writing, most of which went on his extravagant lifestyle - after his losses on Wall Street in October 1929, was quite heavily linked to Hearst in the 1929-31 period.

I'm sure Peter Clarke "Mr Churchill's Profession" (on his writing career) and David Lough "No More Champagne" (on his finances) will have more details. From memory he made two trips to North America in these years, and was talking about film scripts and stuff like that, as well as writing syndicated articles.

There is a small amount of material about young Randolph and Hearst in Randolph's biog. He allegedly lost his cherry to Tilly Losch on a visit to Hearst Castle.Paulturtle (talk) 07:06, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
 * - Appreciate your interest in the article and hope you found it a good read. You're right that both Clarke and Lough do have material on Hearst and WSC, but sadly little on the castle, beyond saying he visited, and Lough reproducing the "oriental hospitalities" quote, which I already have with a Gilbert attribution. But I've fashioned a footnote (c). I hope it meets the need but amend away. I know FAs aren't your bag, but this one will be lumbering to FAC at some point, so I'd really appreciate any further suggestions/comments then. Sometime, we really must get H.H.A his little bronze star! KJP1 (talk) 12:25, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Cheers. Lough has some fuller quotes about Churchill's view of Hearst. Clarke (I tracked down my copy last night) has only one index entry on Hearst, sadly.Paulturtle (talk) 18:50, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Place names
Hearst Castle is not in San Simeon, but about three miles away. One cannot drive to Hearst Castle without permission to use the private road between Highway 1 and the hilltop. San Simeon may refer to Rancho San Simeon or to the village of San Simeon a populated place at 35.644 and -121.189. Hearst Castlerefers to "Hearst San Simeon Estate" or "La Cuesta Encantada." San Simeon (the village/populated place) and the Hearst Castle Visitor Center))(at 35.650 N. and -121.186) are about 3 miles from the buildings and grounds of "Hearst San Simeon Estate" at 35.685 N and -121.16. The Lat/Long are from Google Maps. I did not know whether to use the Deg-Min-Sec or Deg.decimal format, so I used the latter. Hearst Castle is not "in San Simeon". Whschirmer (talk) 22:41, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Not sure what change you’re wanting. It’s been called San Simeon in multiple reliable sources for almost 100 years, and its owner and builder both used the term. KJP1 (talk) 07:58, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Miss Julian C. Messic 1889-1961
KJP1 (talk) 15:10, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Dates
 * Berkeley Pool
 * Berkeley City Club
 * C. Julian Mesic


 * I'm confused. How does she relate to Hearst Castle? A relation of Julia Morgan's?? --Pete Tillman (talk) 16:23, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
 * - Nope, a fellow architect, who worked with Morgan on San Simeon, among other projects. She’s in this article as a red link and I hate red links, but I can’t find much about her. Though we do have an image in Commons. I’m parking what I can find here, to see if there’s enough for a stub. Hope you like the article. KJP1 (talk) 16:38, 23 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Hope you find enough stuff. I live nearby, and am a big fan of Julia Morgan's buildings. Quite a gal! --Pete Tillman (talk) 21:50, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Citizen Kane as satire - or something else
and I are currently engaged in a bit of an edit-war. [See below].KJP1 (talk) 10:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The dispute concerns the film and not the castle. I already started an RfC there. Kindly delete this RfC: It's a duplicate and, more importantly, it is out of place. Thanks in advance. -The Gnome (talk) 10:50, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Is Citizen Kane satire?
Greetings, all. An RfC has opened up at the here, at the talk page of the article Citizen Kane, after a difference of opinion between KJP1 and myself about the term "satire" being used in this article to characterize the Kane film. (See opening section.) The choice of the term for the entirety of Kane is, in my opinion, inadequately supported, unjust, and arbitrary. I therefore started an RfC as above. Anyone interested to participate is welcome there. Please do not start a duplicate discussion here about the same subject. Take care. -The Gnome (talk) 10:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Comment from KJP1
I'm unsure why The Gnome has chosen to start an RfC at Citizen Kane, rather than here, but I'll post my comments in both for ease.
 * The disagreement between us arose over the use of the word “satirized” in the fourth paragraph of the lead. The Gnome suggests “evoked” would be more appropriate. I shall leave them to explain their reasoning but my thinking goes something like:
 * Multiple RS describe Citizen Kane as a satire, e.g.
 * They do so because CK does satirize Hearst/Kane, and his wife/mistress Susan/Marion, amongst others. Hearst’s avarice/Davies’ alcoholism are obvious instances. It also accounts for Hearst’s reaction to the film;
 * I haven't attempted any major analysis of the film in this article, but have referenced it in relation to Hearst and his life at the castle;
 * Evoking, The Gnome's preferred term, has a rather different, and more benign, meaning;
 * The Gnome appears to take the view that satire is a cheap/debased genre, “mere satire”. It actually has a long and impressive pedigree, going back to classical texts.

Very pleased of course to discuss and see if a consensus can be reached.KJP1 (talk) 11:24, 24 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Looks to me that satire is well supported. Binksternet (talk) 13:18, 24 April 2023 (UTC)