Talk:Heart (band)/Archive 2

Genre(s) again
We seem to be going through another round of "let's change the genre".

Can anyone provide a definitive reference, (or failing that, a plausable explanation), of which genre(s) is/are appropriate?

Then, next time we have another round, we can say "rv - see talk page"

Candidates seem to be:
 * hard rock - there seems to be general consensus on this one.
 * rock (music) - is a redirect to "rock music"
 * rock music - latest editor says: "Dudes, please, don't place Rock since it's too general!" - seems like a reasonable request to me. However, Anger22 provides a compelling argument below.
 * arena rock - in an earlier round of "discussion", it was concluded that "arena rock" is not a genre; Anger22 provides an explanation below.
 * heavy metal - not a serious contender!!
 * folk rock - seems appropriate to me for some of the 1970s stuff.
 * pop rock - seems appropriate to me.
 * glam metal - maybe? Maybe not! "Heart aren't "glam" anything. Hard rock with big hair is still just hard rock."
 * glam rock - ditto

Opinions please. Pdfpdf (talk) 04:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * "Opinions" have no place on Wikipedia but here is a comment anyways :). The rule of the template is aim for generality.


 * Folk rock
 * If they 'touched' on a genre like folk rock then it doesn't really apply. Anger22
 * Sorry, I don't understand. First, they've more than "'touched' on" folk rock, and even if they had, why is it that "it doesn't really apply"? Pdfpdf


 * Arena rock
 * Arena rock is not a music genre it is simply a term describing bands (usually hard rock bands) playing their chosen form in an arena. Anger22
 * Thanks for the clarification - I couldn't find the reference I was after. Pdfpdf
 * Please, Arena Rock sounds really like a unique subgenre. It doesn't matter where you play it. It's just the really big drum-banging, loud voices, slow tempo! See, Arena Rock is a sub-genre. 121.97.138.6
 * Mmmmm. You have a point. Arena rock says: "Arena rock, also called stadium rock or anthem rock, is a loosely-defined term describing an era of rock music.", and later says: "Arena rock's popularity peaked in the '80s. Along with the creators of the genre, other bands such as Heart, ... " Pdfpdf
 * Anger22, the article seems to disagree with you. Pdfpdf (talk) 14:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Does it? I think it supports. Arena rock is a "loosely defined 'term describing an era". And the template field is prompting for a "genre". There is no reference to it being a genre anywhere on the page. The template field is not for "loosely defined terms". That's why you never see British Invasion in the infobox. It's the same thing. (and if you do see British Invasion in an infobox for petes sake delete it. It just makes Wikipedia look dumb) I would also point out the Wikipedia can never be used as a reference for itself in any debate and can never be used as a citation for content. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 14:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no reference to it being a genre anywhere on the page.
 * Pardon? I actually quoted one reference above! Perhaps you could have another look at the article? (We are talking about the same article, aren't we?) Meanwhile, what support do you have for your assertion that it isn't a genre? So far your assertion can only be classed as POV. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * (BTW: I don't care one way or the other what gets put there, as long as it's not absurd. I'm just a little tired of these periodic bouts of "let's change the genre", and would like to settle the matter. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC))
 * if you do see British Invasion in an infobox for petes sake delete it - OK. Will do. Pdfpdf (talk) 15:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't see what you were referring to but I see it now buried in the end of your post quote. Thanks for pointing out the error on the original page. I have corrected it. There is all kinds of discussion on several "term" pages that used to be incorrectly lumped as genres. All of these terms have been removed from genre lists n such and most have had any categories deleted that in some way made the reader think that the term meant some sort of distinct musical style or format. Like the previously mentioned British Invasion another one that pops to mind is "New Wave of British Heavy Metal". Again, a "term decrribing an era" and not an actual genre. "Classic rock" is another "classic" example. It is a radio format that frequently gets added incorrectly as a genre. Hope that helps. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 15:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, thank you. Pdfpdf (talk) 16:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, here are songs of Arena Rock. If you listen closely, they sound really different from other genres,

"Sweet Victory" by David Glenn Eisley (yeah, that song from SpongeBob) "Total Eclipse of the Heart" by Bonnie Tyler "WE Will Rock You" by Queen

Please, please listen. It really sounds like a unique genre!


 * Rock is the "parent" genre
 * Rock is the "parent" genre and really the only true "genre" listed. The rest being just "styles" of rock. Rock should be included in all musician infoboxes where applicable and should always come first(as the parent genre) Some consider pop rock to be an insult because they equate it to bubblegum rock. Pop rock, when done right, is actually an artform, just look at The Who, The Beatles, The Kinks, Elton John etc. Heart performing pop rock is very suitable since they are very good at it. Anger22
 * Again, thank you. Pdfpdf
 * I don't agree with you... That's why Folk Rock, Arena Rock are called Sub-Genres! .Whatever Main Genre there is.... there is always a sub-genre! Just like Hardcore punk is a subgenre of punk! That's why sub-genres help classify what type of rock this is. Example- You call an extreme metal band just "rock". That's really too GENERAL!. 121.97.138.6
 * 121.97.138.6, I don't understand your problem. It's not as though Anger22 is saying "Rock" is the ONLY thing to put there. It's just the "parent"; the sub-genres clarify the parent. Why is this a problem? Pdfpdf (talk) 14:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is that he says that we should place Rock on every Rock musician. I don't think this should be. I mean placing just "rock" is for Children's Almanacs.... Let's keep it to being encyclopediaish....


 * Glam
 * And Heart aren't "glam" anything. Hard rock with big hair is still just hard rock. Anger22
 * Lol!! (Well, that answers that question! ;-) Pdfpdf


 * Summary
 * Rock, Hard rock, Pop rock aims and obtains "generality" and still covers the band's career. Anything else is just superfluity. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 12:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

OK! So the list now seems to be:
 * rock (as in rock )
 * hard rock
 * pop rock
 * folk rock (for some of the 1970s stuff)

Any other opinions? Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC) Updated. Pdfpdf (talk) 14:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC) Updated again. Pdfpdf (talk) 16:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Voting Wheter to place Arena Rock
Please place Agree or Disgaree if you wish to place Arena Rock as a genre...

Agree If you listen to these songs. They really sound like a unique Genre. It's all about the loud drum banging, slow tempo, loud voices thing... Please vote agree!!! "Sweet Victory" by David Glenn Eisley (yeah, that song from SpongeBob) "Total Eclipse of the Heart" by Bonnie Tyler "WE Will Rock You" by Queen
 * Wikipedia doesn't have votes. Read WP:VOTE. And the premise of your vote is to add a "term" to a field that doesn't allow "terms". So don't waste your time dude. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 23:47, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Not Heavy Metal
I do not think that this band will ever be heavy metal. 121.97.138.6 (talk)
 * Agreed!!! Pdfpdf (talk)

But, how about Glam Metal? 121.97.138.6 (talk) 08:30, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe. How about Glam Rock? Pdfpdf (talk) 12:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Please Don't Put Rock
OMG! There is so many types of rock! What type of Rock do you mean? Punk Rock? Funk Rock? Dudes, there are so many types of rock! 121.97.106.87 (talk) 13:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes there are many types of rock music. Including rock music itself. Bruce Springsteen is a good example. Not hard rock, not soft rock, not punk rock, not funk rock... just rock. And a large bulk of the Heart catalog falls into this category. Are you sure you understand the genre? Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 14:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Dude, you sound like you treat me as a dumbass... Ok, I don't agree on just "rock". But, since so many people are soooo unsure on what genre is Heart, let's just keep it to "rock". 121.97.106.87 (talk) 23:26, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Hard Rock speaks for itself
I think you don't have to place just "rock" anymore. The other genres help classify what type of rock Heart is. 121.97.106.87 (talk) 23:45, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Glam Metal
Pop Metal- also known as Glam Metal!- if you won't place Heavy, maybe Glam a.k.a. Pop Metal The song called "Alone" is the closest song to Glam Metal... 121.97.138.6


 * Alone is a rock song plain and simple. How is it close to glam metal? Do you know what glam metal is? Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 14:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I know what Glam is. Anyway, I conclude that we just cancel Heart's glam metal thing... But we need to cancel out the just "rock" 121.97.106.87 (talk) 23:24, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Deleting content is vandalism and can get you blocked dude. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 23:27, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not deleting anything... until we get to solve this "rock" problem thing... 121.97.106.87 (talk) 23:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

the only problem would be deleting it. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 23:47, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Glam Rock
Or, how about Glam Rock? They came from early 70's and had that Glam Rock Look 121.97.138.6
 * I come from the 50s and can remember the 70s very well. How did they look glam? Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 14:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Not Glam Metal or Glam Rock
Ok, my opinion a while ago was to place Glam metal or Glam Rock. Please cancel.... They can't Glam Rock 1. They didn't start out in the early 70s. 121.97.106.87 (talk)

Consensus?
So does this mean we have consensus on: Pdfpdf (talk) 10:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * rock (as in rock )
 * hard rock
 * pop rock
 * folk rock (for some of the 1970s stuff)
 * That's what was there before and it was fine. Anything else is superfluity. Anything less paints an inaccurate picture. And Wikipedia is already abundant with inaccuracies. Anger22 (Talk 2 22) 11:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Heavy Metal Argument
For those who state they were never heavy metal, I would strongly suggest you listen to songs from their 1985 Heart album such as If Looks Could Kill, Shell Shock and The Wolf. Those scream eighties metal. 67.182.31.229 (talk) 03:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Bands influenced by Heart?
Quoting the legacy section: Among the groups who have recorded at their Bad Animals studio are R.E.M., Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden and Candlebox (all of whom have cited Heart as a major influence

Although I don't claim to be an expert on said bands ( although I'm a fan of all but candlebox) I don't recall any of these bands stating that they were influenced by heart ( although I do remember that Alice In Chains played a tribute to heart, so there's a little evidence for AiC's inclusion), also it shows that there is a citation needed.

I believe that it should be removed, however, I believe it should at the very least be disscussed first.

Also, if anyone can find source(s) to back this statement, then I don't see any reason it shouldn't continue to be there.

ps: I do not dispute the claim that these bands recorded at Bad Animals studio, I don't know, but if it turns out the statement of Heart's influencing these bands is untrue than it's pretty irrelevant.

Alternative Idiot (talk) 23:09, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Amnesty - why?
Near the start there's a line about the returning to Seattle after Carter granted the amnesty to draft evaders. It is not clear to me why that would have affected them. I didn't see anything about any of the male band members running the border, so why is that relevant? 70.52.184.19 (talk) 04:41, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Mmmm. Interesting. It affected the band VERY strongly. (I'm surprised to see you say "It is not clear to me why that would have affected them." Perhaps you don't know the history of that period regarding Vietnam and the draft?) Somewhere there's a seemingly endless dialog about the Fisher brothers, particularly Mike, "going underground" to avoid/evade the draft. (So I'm also surprised to read "I didn't see anything about any of the male band members running the border.") I thought it was on this page, but apparently not. I'm sure you don't have to look hard to find it. If you can't find it, ask, and I'll find it for you. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:16, 8 July 2008 (UTC)