Talk:Heart (band)/Archive 3

Use of Barracuda at RNC
The discussion of Barracuda at the RNC seems a bit one-sided. There isn't any factual information in the article that's wrong, but a reader will get the impression from reading it that the RNC did something wrong by using the song without permission. There's nothing illegal about playing whatever songs they feel like playing, provided their licensing feeds are up-to-date, which is almost certainly the case for an outfit of this importance. They don't need to ask individual artists for permission, even if the artists own the rights, which is probably not the case for most bands with songs from early in their career anyway (but I don't know if that's true of Heart in particular). Parableman (talk) 01:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The Heart page doesn't need to explain the intricacies of American copyright law to its readers anymore than the page about the pregnant parachuter needs to explain gravity. The article only needs to focus on how the event impacts Heart. There is nothing one sided about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.142.199 (talk) 14:57, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree wholeheartedly. BTW, did you see to brown haired singer?  I was watching crazy on you on youtube and she looks like roseanne now. Testmasterflex (talk) 05:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Country of Origin and some other thoughts
I was watching a concert/special on "Dreamboat Annie" last night and learned some interesting things. I know for some this is old news however I do not see it reflected on the main page. IFrst me reasoning: Heart, as a band, is still playing live. However if you compare the lineup of Heart (Not any of the the members and their pre-Heart bands) when they became "Heart" and when they were first signed and you see Ann and Nancy being the only ones really in the band. Opinions and what makes a band a band aside I think most people would agree that Ann and Nancy were, and continue to be, the focal point of "Heart", so much that even this Wicki page only contains a picture of the sisters. With that in mind Ann said that her boyfriend at the time (1970's) was living in Vancouver, BC Canada because he was avoiding the draft. It was because of that reason Ann moved to Canada, to be with him, and in Canada the band Heart was formed. The page does have a section about "Origins" however even if members of what would become Heart played together, and had other names before Heart was formed, the country of origin for Heart would/should be Canada. So with that in mind would it be reasonable to remove the "Seattle, Washington, USA" from the "country of origin" as well as change the following:


 * In 1974 the Heart lineup consisted of Ann, Nancy, Roger Fisher, Steve Fossen (bass), John Hannah (keyboards) and Brian Johnstone (drums)

{This may be true but it is placed in the timeline BEFORE the following comment:}


 * "...so the band relocated to Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada".

Going back to the interview with Ann and Nancy "Heart" did not "relocate" to Canada but was "formed" in Canada. So I might suggest that under "Origins (1963–1974)" there be some clarification that reflects the interview with Ann and Nancy. And then remove the first lines under the "Success (1975–1982)" so it would just start with the line "After many one-nighters around their new home, the group recorded..."

NOTE: The reason I am not just editing this is because I do not want to be attacked by the many Heart fans who worked so hard to build this page. I would rather give the chance for people to comment on these updates first. As for other little comments - I read about the genres and I did not see mention of the era(s) involved and really that is a huge factor. Again relating to the interview I saw last night Ann and Nancy both state that "Dreamboat Annie" (And the sound of Heart at that time) was influenced by C,S,N&Y and even Joni Mitchell. Also the Beatles, in specific "Day in a life". Then they flipped it over to Led Zeppelin and the Vietnam war (Protest songs - tones that Ann says turned up in "Crazy on You") At the time this album came out this would classify them as "folk" and "rock" clearly. As the years progressed so did musical style, genres and classifications - in the 60's and 70's (and into the 80's) so many of these genres and styles did not exist like they do now. Heart could be thought of as glam in some ways - Look at pictures of Sweet and the NY Dolls and certainly one could see the comparison of style/look. Musically I don't see that far of a reach to go from Sweet to Heart. Would I call Heart "Heavy Metal" or "glam" by todays' standards? No. But in the early to mid-80's bands like Slayer, Motorhead, Overkill and even Metallica and Iron Maiden were just coming out. We think of these bands as "Heavy Metal" now but at the time they would be compared to what was being called "heavy Metal" - Heart, Ted Nugent, Foreigner, Journey, Styx and other "Arena rock" bands. (Some may think of Deep Purple, Black Sabbath and Kiss but I remember hearing them called "acid rock" bands, different than "Heavy Metal" because they were "louder" than "heavy Metal") In the early 80's saw a large heavy metal outdoor arena rock show - one of the biggest Heavy Metal bands of the time was headlining - Foreigner. Another big heavy metal band of the era was on right before them - Loverboy. And the show was opened with short sets from two little known acts - Scorpions and Iron Maiden. Also I might remind people of a little "event" in 1982 called the US Festival - I remember the talk about trying to get the huge "Heavy Metal" bands like Journey and Foreigner to play. In 1983 things were slowly turning because the second US Festival had a "heavy Metal" day that actually had what many would consider now to be "Heavy Metal" bands - Ozzy, Quiet Riot, Motley Cure, Scorpions. However bands like Triumph and Van Halen were on the bill as well that day and, when the line up was first announced, Joe Walsh was playing. (It was his refusal to play that day that caused Quiet Riot to be placed on the bill at the last minute) Many considered the '83 Us Festival to be the break out event for heavy metal and also putting most of these bands out to the fairly new MTV and the masses who were watching that channel.

I saw Heart in 83 or 84 at the LA Forum - and they were just a plan ole rock band out there playing music, and at that moment in time that was really what most of the "big" band were doing. Then everything changed and "overnight" Heart went from being a 70's band who had a dwindling audience to an 80's "hair" band - put into the 80's pop metal genre - with heavy rotation along side of other metal acts of the day. In another genre classification the band became an "Mtv Hair band" (Or for those of us who lived in the Hollywood scene of the 80's - they looked like a "sunset strip hair band" that bands like Poison - who many considered "glam" - were trying to emulate. And I remember many a conversation with people both in and out if the industry about how Heart was trying to emulate them, not the other way around) With all the discussion about what genre Heart is or isn't you have to remember that Heart is a band that has survived through the years and at their core they are a band that grew out of the 60's and early 70's and were influenced by what was going on in the world at the times. However the genres they have been placed into come from not only that time but all the times that have come since. In which case. IMO, putting Heart into any of the following would be acceptable: Folk, Folk rock, Hard rock, Acid rock, Arena Rock, Heavy Metal, Pop Rock, Hair Metal, Glam Rock, Ballad rock/metal, pop, Top 10 and even Adult Contemporary and Classic Rock.Soundvisions1 (talk) 15:34, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

re: Country of Origin
Hi Soundvisions1! Nice to see you here and presenting a solid and well explained group of comments. I, for one, very much appreciate your note:
 * NOTE: The reason I am not just editing this is because I do not want to be attacked by the many Heart fans who worked so hard to build this page. I would rather give the chance for people to comment on these updates first.

I don't think what you say regarding timings is quite right; note that Ann has a habit and a history of reinterpreting the past to support her current point of view. I'm not saying that it is "wrong" or that Anne is "lying" - what I'm saying is that very little is black & white, and this topic has a number of shades of grey, and each of them can be interpreted several ways!

I think most people would agree that Ann and Nancy were, and continue to be, the focal point of "Heart", so much that even this Wicki page only contains a picture of the sisters.

Well yeah, but that was initially because two quite attractive young women made MUCH better advertising material than 2+ skinny greasy-haired young men, and also, it seems impossible to get photos of the band which are not copyright. (You're not allowed to display copyright photos on Wikipedia.) You will notice that the photo used was taken well before 1974 (when Nancy joined the band), and is a photo of two attractive young ladies (taken by a no-doubt-hopeful young man) - it isn't a "band" picture. Have you seen the "Dreamboat Annie" album cover? The one I have in front of me here is dated 1976 copyright Mushroom Records Canada Inc distributed by Fourth Street East Inc of Chatsworth California. It's one of those four-page-open-up arrangements with a double-page picture spread. The front cover has the infamous "bare-shoulders" photo of Ann & Nancy (not a thread of clothing visible). The inside is 2 square feet of photos - 26 of them, and a heart shape saying "Ann Wilson, Nancy Wilson with Steve Fossen, Roger Fisher, Produced by Mike Flicker". Of the photos, 11 of Ann, 5 of Nancy, 1 of Ann & Nancy, 1 of Nancy & Roger (who were a couple), 3 of Roger, 3 of Steve, 2 of drummers. I really don't think you can come to any conclusions based on photographs (except that Ann & Nancy were attractive young women).

However if you compare the lineup of Heart (Not any of the the members and their pre-Heart bands) when they became "Heart" and when they were first signed and you see Ann and Nancy being the only ones really in the band.

No, you can't say that with any accuracy. Firstly, "when they became Heart" and "when they were first signed" are two separate events that occurred at two quite different and well separated times. It's not exactly clear when the band did become Heart, but the indications are that it was before 1974, certainly before Nancy joined the band (in 1974), and it was in Seattle, and Mike Fisher was still a member of the band. Ann joined a band in 1970, a previously all male band containing the two Fishers and Steve Fossen. Ann and Mike became a couple. It's not exactly clear when Mike went to Canada, but Vancouver isn't far from Seattle, and it's clear that between 1970 and 1975, at the times when they weren't both living in Seattle, they visited each other. No, you can't say the band Heart was formed in Canada. Yes, you can say what the article says, viz: "In 1974 the Heart lineup consisted of Ann, Nancy, Roger Fisher, Steve Fossen (bass), ... " and "...so the band relocated to Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada", because the relocation to Canada didn't occur until after Nancy joined, possibly not until 1975.

So no, I don't agree with some of your "facts",and certainly don't agree with your proposed changes. In fact, I've often thought about what the term "origin" actually means. There's no doubt that Heart became famous in BC, and BC is the origin of their success and fame, but as for the origin of the band itself, no, that was in Seattle.

Now, I'm not a 100% certain of the accuracy of everything that I've said, but what I've said is more consistent with the evidence I do have than with what you have gleaned from what Ann wants you to believe. Apparently both Nancy and Roger are (still) writing their memoirs. It will be interesting to read them and see how much they agree with each other. But even then, we're remarkably short of independent unbiassed third-party-source information.

I hope that's been useful. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Just to clear up one thing that you quoted that read fully not how it was meant to be read - my comment about comparing who is in "Heart" now and who was in "Heart" at the start we see only two members being the same. Ok, if you want to be fully anal you see one - Ann. However I was not saying that Ann and Nancy *were* Heart, just saying that if you were to look at the long history of the band up until now you would take what Ann and Nancy have to say over people who were only in the band at the start. I have a friend who was in a pre-Guns & Roses band called Hollywood Rose however I would not expect him to be able to tell me how the band evolved into what they are now nor could I expect him to tell me how the first album was recorded. I could however expect him to tell me what it was like when he *was* in the band and compare that to what Axel says about that same period. That was what I was saying about Heart and Ann and Nancy.


 * We can agree to disagree about origin but, Heart aside, I firmly believe that if a band comes together in a certain area and plays using a name that will follow them then that should be "country of origin". Lets take Quiet Riot. They formed in California and they played the LA/Hollywood scene but they did not get signed there, their first albums were only in Japan and it was many years (and a different line up) before they would have any U.S releases. In no way, shape or form would I consider their "country of origin" Japan because they found success there or were signed there first. On another thread on Wiki someone asked me something along the lines "So if a bunch of Americans formed a band in Ireland you think that makes them Irish?" And my response was that if they formed the band in Ireland and then later got signed then that bands country of Origin would be Ireland, not the country where they got signed. For me I don't see what the issue is in how that should be read. I have a friend who was born in China, yet his family relocated to the United States when he was 3 months old so he has lived here ever since - some 47 years. Yet he is still considered a Chinese Citizen because that is where his "country of origin" was. Why should a band be any different?


 * Likewise a bands name I think is everything when it comes to "fame". Almost every band started somewhere, and most of the time under a different name than most people know them as. I have talked to some other people more closely tied to the band than I am and by all accounts "Heart", the band as most people know them, came together in Canada. I am a long time Heart fan but never really thought much about things until getting more involved in Wiki where almost everything you say is put under a microscope. When I saw this interview the other day a lot of things "clicked" because over the years I had heard Heart called a Canadian band and have had friends who grew up in Vancouver call Heart a band from there. I never paid that close attention because most of the time, especially in the 90's when "grunge" was hitting it big, Heart, along with Queensryche and Soundgarden, were always sighted as being "Seattle bands" and most of the bios do say that Heart was formed in 1973 in Seattle.(More on that later)


 * As for specifics - I did not suggest that the part about the line up in 1974 be removed, only that it be moved to after the part about the band relocating to Canada. And again - if there was a band that consisted of members who would later be in "heart" then, en masse, moved to Vancouver it should not imply that an existing band named "heart" moved there as it does now. Taking the band out of the equation for a moment - turning back the hands of time - if you had gone to Canada as a draft dodger and were trying to lay low would you blurt that out in interviews in 1973? Now if you were in a band that got signed in 1975 and were suddenly becoming somewhat famous would you say that you were from the US or from Canada as you were/had been avoiding the draft? Now put that in the conversation we are having - I really do not see any issue as to why there might have been this "gap" in the early history and why so many bios state the band was formed in 1973 in Seattle. Kind of sounds better than trying to promote a "band of draft dodgers", even if it was only one member. But again - that part is opinion, the facts that I would truly follow are ones that come from band members.


 * So many Wicki pages use information from the AMG and even that states that Heart was "Based in Vancouver, British Columbia..." in how it talks about the bands "origins". I also find that if you take a lot of these sources and then hear first hand accounts from band members you can start to put together a fairly good time line. In an interview with Nancy from about a year ago she says a few items that could help. In talking about college Nancy said "Ann was already up in Canada playing in Heart with Roger Fisher and his brother Mike...". On the draft dodger situation with Mike she says: "He hitchhiked his way up to Vancouver and settled there. But at one point, he snuck back down illegally to visit his brother Roger, who was playing in a Seattle band with Ann. That’s when she and Michael fell in love. She followed him up to Canada, and the band followed her." To me it is pretty clear that the band that Ann was in at the time was not "Heart" but "a Seattle band" and that when Ann went to Canada that "Seattle band", or members of that band anyway, also went. Likely it was at some point after Ann,not all at once. (Scenario being Ann went up to be with her boyfirend and they talked about putting a band together - so why not call on his brother and other musicians they had played with to see if they wanted to come up and form a band? After all how much time passed between Ann going up and "the band followed" - a day? A month? A year? That is currently a missing link. If Ann went and a week later other members went than you could feel that the band idea was pre-planned. If it was six months than it seems like another scenario all together)So lets use this and look at the "facts" as stated on the Wicki page: "When Ann joined, she became Mike Fisher's girlfriend." which is stated under the "Origins (1963–1974)" section but before the "then shortening that to 'Heart' by the time Nancy joined in 1974" and even before the "Success (1975–1982)" section which has the questionable line about: "...so the band relocated to Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada" as it is fairly clear the band was already in Canada in 1975. It seems more likely the time line was that Ann was playing in a "Seattle band" (Hocus Pocus?) sometime in the 70's and one of the members of that band was Roger Fisher. Ann met Roger's brother when he snuck into the country for a brief time and they "fell in love" and at some point after that Ann went to Canada. At this point in the time line it does not seem like "Heart" existed yet. Perhaps a band having members that would later be in "heart" but but not yet a a band called "Heart". At some point before 1974, but after Ann was already in Canada, the band was named or renamed Heart. When was Nancy in college? 1970 - 1974? 1969 - 1973? Maybe that would help with dates because Nancy says in this interview that she was in college when Ann was living in Canada and already gigging in "Heart". Clearly this places Heart in Canada before 1975 which is when the Wiki page places them there. Another buried tidbit I got was about Steve Fossen who says he was one of the founding members in 1972/73 after he got his college degree and also moved to Canada. So now if we start to put together things is seems likely that Heart was formed in Vancouver, BC sometime between 1972 - 1973. If Nancy did not move to Canada and join the band until 1974 and there was no "Heart" until Ann, Roger and Steve moved to Canada it seems consistent with the concept that "Heart" came together in Canada. (This is also consistent with another older (1999) article on the band and interview with Nancy that states: "When Ann graduated from high school, Nancy played the solo coffeehouse circuit and then spent a year and a half playing originals and folk covers in the Elton John/Joni Mitchell/Paul Simon vein while at college in Oregon. Ann was already fronting the band Heart, a top hard rock act in Vancouver.")


 * Now Nancy also says "Not long after I joined the band, amnesty was instated, and Michael wasn’t hauled off to jail. Which was doubly great, because that was around the time that Heart started to have some success, and the pardon freed us up to tour anywhere in the world" and this is in line with the comment of: "By early 1977, the band was able to return to the United States after President Jimmy Carter granted amnesty to Vietnam draft evaders." (If you wanted to put down the exact date it would be January 21, 1977. I believe it was the one of the first, if not *the* first, official act Carter did as the new President) Now I am not saying that the pre-1977 info is fully wrong but I am saying that it needs to be redone into a better time line.Soundvisions1 (talk) 22:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Re: Glam Rock
I have a hard time accepting the idea that Heart were ever Glam Rock. As Anger22 said back in May: 'Heart aren't "glam" anything. Hard rock with big hair is still just hard rock.' Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I can more easily accept them as Glam than Heavy Metal because I don't think they are anywhere near as heavy as Iron Maiden or Metallica say. But my point was not about my opinion it was about the times and at the time what was being called Glam (Elton John for example) certainly could fit. And when Heavy Metal was Journey and Styx than certainly Heart could fit. Soundvisions1 (talk) 22:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "I can more easily accept them as Glam than Heavy Metal" - So can I! But that wasn't the question. The "question" was: "I have a hard time accepting the idea that Heart were ever Glam Rock." Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 00:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Updates
I did a rewrite of the "early years" section to bring it more into line with interviews with not only Nancy and Ann but also Roger and Steve. I think this is far more accurate, as far as a pre-1974 time line, than what has been up and in doing research I notice that a lot of other sites have used the Wiki page so thusly there is a lot of misinformation based on it. I know this will probably cause some sort of backlash but I feel this is far more accurate than what was written before.Soundvisions1 (talk) 21:43, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * A few questions/comments:
 * Why did you remove the 1963-1967 period?
 * You haven't cited any references.
 * It would be chronologically more logical to put the Fossen & Fishers section before the Wilsons section - the Wilsons joined the Fossen & Fishers band(s).
 * You say the band "officially" came together. What does "officially" mean?
 * You've chosen "Years active" to start with 1973 rather than 1974. What events-in-particular led you to choose that year rather than the other?
 * Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 00:39, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * To answer the questions - I have found nothing that says "1963" as a start date for "The Army" other than cut and pastes from Wiki so if Steve Fossen says "The Army" was 1967 I turst him. I cited many references, not sure how you missed them. I just broke down the intro into sections because I think that was part of the confusion before. What I did was just take the existing first part (Which was about Ann and Nancy) and give it a header. But I agree, that subsection should probably come after the rest of the guys. The wording of "officially" is only meant to say that the band as most people know it "officially" came together in Canada. Because Steve and Roger were in a band called "heart" for a short period of time in 1970 I also added the wording of "officially" so as to not confuse people between "White Heart" and "heart". Years active to me is how long the band Heart had played. Nancy joined in 1974 however Heart was playing in Canada while Nancy was still in college. Steve and Roger joined/co-formed the band in 72/73. Thusly the band was playing in 1973 so the years active would start with 1973Soundvisions1 (talk) 11:20, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

note: Coming from Bothell, Washington, and having listened to Army, as they were then called, in 1969 and 1970, at various local venues, I can assert that at least in those two years the band was called "Army" and was subsequently known as "White Hart". Sometimes referred to as "The Army" the name used on posters, and performances was "Army". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arshnar (talk • contribs) 18:15, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Country of Origin - more
The idea that Heart was officially formed in Vancouver BC is just ridiculous! The band members were all Americans from the Seattle area. They all moved to Vancouver together. True, the group did have some of their biggest early success in Vancouver. But while I have heard some Vancouver fans try to claim the group as their own, their sense of pride is badly mis-informed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.26.222.51 (talk) 05:27, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The actual facts differ from what your opinion is. Remember Wikipedia is not based on opinion or personal point of view. Soundvisions1 (talk) 11:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Soundvisions1, you may be right, but what actual evidence of these actual facts are you providing? At the moment, as an independent observer, all I can see is one opinion vs another opinion. True, in the article you have quoted interviews with band members, but some of these statements of "fact" are conflicting - they are not really "facts" at all. I rather fear that there is no factual evidence, only different people's points of view. I hope you are able to allay my fears. Pdfpdf (talk) 14:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You asked what actual evidence of these actual facts are you providing?. Didn't we already discuss this above? But my overall thought is this - when are band members facts just a point of view? And I mean this in relation to non-opinions. By example if said to you you "What do you think of Heart's music?" - your answer would be an opinion. Now if I asked you "Where do you live?" I would expect that answer to be fact. However if people disagreed I could ask your neighbors. The combination of that would lead me to determine a factual place of where you live. The rest I have already discussed above. Soundvisions1 (talk) 15:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * 96.26.222.51, you may be right. Are you able to provide any evidence to support your statements? For example, I believe that Soundvisions1 asserts that the band members moved to Vancouver at different times. Certainly, I am of the opinion that Mike was living in Vancouver whilst Ann was living in Seattle. However, I have no hard evidence to support my opinion - only annecdotal evidence. Can you help with some evidence? Pdfpdf (talk) 14:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Vague citations and polite requests for clarification
You have asked me to use the talk page, but I don't see anything from you here on the subject, so I am unable to address your concerns. I do, however, have some concerns and comments. It doesn't seem appropriate to make them here, so I will put them on your talk page. However, what I will say here is: Pdfpdf (talk) 13:28, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Two of the references you have provided are extremely vague. I have, politely, twice, asked you to supply more information. Why is this a problem for you?
 * 2) Until you supply more information, I will continue to ask for it, politely.
 * 3) One of the references you quote contains errors of fact. I have noted this. Why do you have a problem with this?


 * Currently there are two other subtopics above that discuss the early years/pre canada. I honestly see no reason to keep adding sub headers to discuss the same topics. I discussed the other issues on your talk page however you referred to them as "Vandalism" and asked to not further discuss it with you there. Soundvisions1 (talk) 13:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "(I discussed the other issues on your talk page) however you referred to them as "Vandalism" and asked to not further discuss it with you there." - It seems you have interpreted my statements in manner different from my intention. I was not refering to your comments as vandalism, I was refering to the section you added titled "Warnings" as vandalism. And I did not ask "to not further discuss it with you there". What I asked is for you not to vandalise my talk page.
 * And I have asked you two questions, asking you to explain what it is that I'm doing that you don't like, and you have not addressed those questions. Yes, you have addressed a number of other issues, but not these questions.
 * As for your first two sentences, I am opening a new subsection because it is a new sub-topic. The sub-topic is: You have placed 2 vague citations that have hardly any information, and I am asking you to add more information to them.
 * Pdfpdf (talk) 15:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Facts with Citations from the main page concerning Disputed/Questioned items
It has gotten very messy above for anyone to come in, even myself, and try to point out what has been answered already. I edited things based on facts however I am still being asked why I did whatever I did. In hopes of putting this issue to rest I will simply take what is already cited in the main article and place it here for those that do not wish to read references/citations. Note: I will not be reposting entire articles or interviews, Editors will have to do that on their own. I do not plan on answering any more questions about the early years or the fact the band came together in Canada. I may add more references, which I did before making this post.


 * 1) Kelly, Maura Interview with Nancy Wilson, The Believer, August 2007.
 * Michael didn’t enlist when his number came up, so the Army broke in to his house late at night to get him—which was illegal, as we found out later. Luckily, he jumped out the window and ran before they could get him. He hitchhiked his way up to Vancouver and settled there. But at one point, he snuck back down illegally to visit his brother Roger, who was playing in a Seattle band with Ann. That’s when she and Michael fell in love. She followed him up to Canada, and the band followed her. We lived there for years.


 * I was forced to declare a major, so I chose art and German lit. But by that point, Ann was already up in Canada playing in Heart with Roger Fisher and his brother Mike, who was the manager of the early version of the band. There had always been an open invitation for me to join them, and I knew I would join after I got some college under my belt. So after a couple years I dropped out of school to seek my future in music.


 * 1) Bergman, Julie Guitar Queen of Heart, cover story, Acoustic Guitar, September 1999, No. 81
 * When Ann graduated from high school, Nancy played the solo coffeehouse circuit and then spent a year and a half playing originals and folk covers in the Elton John/Joni Mitchell/Paul Simon vein while at college in Oregon. Ann was already fronting the band Heart, a top hard rock act in Vancouver


 * 1) Wilson, Ann. Dreamboat Annie Live, DVD interview 2007.
 * I do not have the DVD in front of me however Ann says the band came together in Canada. Ann also say she moved to Canada "for love" as her boyfriend at the time was evading the draft.


 * 1) Loder, Kurt. Making Music to the Northern Lights, Circus Magazine. November 1977.
 * Roger Fisher on Brother Mike Fisher: Then he moved to Canada, we got Ann, she met my brother, they fell in love, and so we moved up to Canada too, and put the band together up there about six years ago


 * 1) Little Queen tour program.
 * In 1972, the core of Heart came together in Vancouver,B.C
 * In 1974, two years after Roger, Steve and Ann had moved to Vancouver, Nancy left school and joined them


 * 1) Fisher, Roger. Solo acoustic show, Q&A. 2007 It was a really magical relationship, it was uncanny. Living up in Vancouver BC for 5 years, putting Heart together up there


 * 1) Fisher, Roger. Interview 2008.
 * What was the name of the band you were in with Ann when she met your brother? Hocus Pocus. What year was that? 1971.


 * 1) The Second Ending. A KWSU-TV, Pullman, WA, television show first broadcast on April 9, 1976. Ann Wilson speaks from the stage and says We only have time for one more I think so we're gonna do a song that, um, was our first single up in Canada, oh by the way, we are from Canada. We're from Vancouver BC in case you haven't heard this yet, We're just starting to ooze down across the border now you see


 * 1) Bebe Le Strange Epic Records Press Kit. 1980. Steve Fossen was a founding member of Heart in 1972 and 1973 after completing his music major in college


 * 1) Photos from 1970, 1973

Soundvisions1 (talk) 23:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

NPOV / Third Party Opinions
Issues: 15:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Based on existing citation and references did the band form in Canada. Are more citations and references needed.
 * 2) Based on existing citation and references was the band playing shows before 1974. If so what year and are more citations and references needed.
 * 3) Do the existing citations and references meet the Wikipedia Verifiability, Neutral point of view and No original research guidelines.

Templates on article page
I notice that four templates have been placed on the article page, viz: 3O, Disputed, Need-Consensus and Disputed-section

As far as I can tell, there doesn't seem to be anyone disputing these matters. (Certainly, I am not disputing any of these matters.)

Is there any reason why these templates can not be removed?

Awaiting an informative reply, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Simplified Pdfpdf (talk) 13:54, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Still awaiting an informative reply.
 * I see we're down to three templates. Is there any reason we can't reduce it to one?
 * In fact, we don't need both of Need-Consensus and Disputed-section next to each other; removing one of them would bring it down to two. Pdfpdf (talk) 12:39, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion
The issue is what to put in the article regarding when and where the band Heart was formed. The accepted convention is that the band formed in Seattle in 1973 -, though there are statements from band members that the band was formed in Vancouver. As we try not to follow just one point of view, but collect and present all information, it would be more comprehensive and helpful to present as much of this information as possible. Something along the lines of - "The band are conventionally reported as having formed in Seattle in 1973, [insert source] however some band members have stated that the band formed in Vancouver. [insert source]" Would this be acceptable?  SilkTork  *YES! 21:43, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Huh? You said "The accepted convention is that the band formed in Seattle in 1973" and "The band are conventionally reported as having formed in Seattle in 1973" however I see nothing to indicate that other than a link you gave which also states that Steve Fossen and Roger Fisher came into the band in "1974", and list Ann and Nancy Wilson with no dates. (However is should be pointed out that, like Wikipedia and the IMDB, the site you linked to is user edited) I listed several sources which all indicate Steve Fossen, Roger Fisher and Ann Wilson forming the the band we know as Heart in Vancouver in 1972/1973. Nancy Wilson, Ann Wilson, Roger Fisher, Steve Fossen - all were there in 1972/1973 and the years presented range from the 70's up to now. That is all but two band members who would have been in the band in 1972 - 74. There is even an image that was shot in Vancouver, used by their booking agent in Vancouver. I do agree with the "not to follow just one point of view" comment, what helped to kick off this was because when it was pointed out what Ann said in the "Dreamboat Annie" video her comment was tossed aside by an Editor thusly: "note that Ann has a habit and a history of reinterpreting the past to support her current point of view" So now, with like comments from Nancy Wilson, Steve Fossen and Roger Fisher, it is not "one point of view" any more. It also looks more like fact. Soundvisions1 (talk) 23:27, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * A goodly number of sources - including some reliable - have the band as being formed in Seattle:, , , , , , , . Wiki's aim is to gather as much information as possible and present it in a neutral manner for the reader to make use of. Interpretation of the information is left to the reader. It would be appropriate for the article to contain as full information as possible, which would include the information that it is reported that the band has its roots in Seattle and are commonly considered to have been formed there.  SilkTork  *YES! 18:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * ←− As I have not heard anything more on the full 3O I am not sure if SilkTork gave up and this should be relisted? In the meantime I am going to take time and go through each "Notable" link that was provided as showing that Heart was formed in Seattle and not Vancouver.


 * 1) "The Acoustic Storm" interview with Ann Wilson. There are no questions about the formation of the band. The only editorial comment is that Heart formed in Seattle in the early 70's which is not entirely untrue - Roger Fisher and Steve Fossen were in a band that was briefly named Heart that was formed in Seattle in the 70's. Ann Wilson was not in that band however. (See Image:WhiteHeart1970.png from 1970)
 * 2) "Chordie.com" guitar tabs, guitar chords and lyrics website. The entire "story" of Heart is lifted from Wikipedia....it clearly states that. No need to comment.
 * 3) "Musician Guide". A re-purposed "Heart Biography" taken from many different sources that contradicts itself at times. I could say it supports the view the band formed in Canada. Others could say it supports the view that the band formed in Seattle. First thing stated is Group formed in Seattle, Wash., in 1970 Again, not entirely untrue as Roger Fisher and Steve Fossen were in "heart" at that time. (See Image:WhiteHeart1970.png from 1970) The Wilson sisters were not in that band however. But lets go with SilkTork's assessment that this is a reliable source and article - if we take that quote as fact than we also must take the next as "fact" - Original band members included Anne Wilson (vocals), Nancy Wilson (guitar), Roger Fisher (guitar), Howard Leese (guitar), Michael Derosier (drums), and Steve Fossen (bass). If this is true than both the Image:WhiteHeart1970.png and Image:Heart1973 BC.png are either fakes or misdated. But before I toss out the images I read the article more - skip down a few paragraphs and it says Press coverage of Heart has centered on the Wilson sisters almost since the band began playing together in a one-room house in Vancouver. Ok, so now it says the band did form in Vancouver. Skip to the next paragraph and it says that Ann joined "White Heart" who became "Hocus Pocus" and then became "Heart" - this is all still in Seattle. Now it says Nancy joined the band and the next paragraph says The band members moved to Vancouver and subsisted on brown rice and stolen fruit while trying to build a following. (Now is the time to remember what was said about "Original band members") The article quotes Rolling Stone - Guitarist Howard Leese--the only other Heart member still around from the early days--was working for Mushroom records in Vancouver when he was tapped to produce the group's first demo. So I think it is safe to say this article swings both ways.
 * 4) "Best Heart MP3s, Ringtones, Videos, Wallpapers, Graphicis - Thumbplay.com". This article starts off saying "The band, which was formed around Seattle's Wilson Sisters..." and then about half way through you get The band began in 1970 when Nancy Wilson was gigging around Seattle as a folksinger and her sister Ann went to audition for a local all-male rock group. Again - not entirely untrue, Ann did join a band and Nancy was playing shows as a folksinger. This article does not say the name of the band Ann auditioned for, or what specific year. There is a gap of 5 years but we get "Nancy joined her sister..." and Together, they moved to Vancouver and signed a deal with the Canadian imprint Mushroom Records. In 1975, Heart released their first album, the sublime Dreamboat Annie. The wording makes it seem as though the entire band, en masse, moved to Canada. This would go against the Image:Heart1973 BC.png booking agency photo from Vancouver, BC which does not have Nancy Wilson being in the band.
 * 5) "Bnet" - "REO, HEART make way to DVD". As this article is a live DVD review there is not much of a story here but it does say The band, formed in Seattle in the early 1970s and fronted by vocalist Ann Wilson and her guitarist/sister Nancy... and, again, not entirely untrue. There was a band that formed in Seattle. There were a few bands in the early 70's in Seattle and Ann Wilson joined one of them I am sure. This DVD review does not say what band she joined though...only that it might be heart.
 * 6) "Heart mp3's, heart music downloads, Heart songs from eMusic.com" (It seems to be a cut and paste from the "All Media Guide".) This article has more history in it but of the bands formation it says simply After both sisters spent some time at college, they decided to try their hand as professional musicians, and while Nancy began performing as a folksinger, Ann joined the all-male vocal group Heart (all-male vocal group????) This is not untrue either - anything about Seattle? The next sentence starts off "Based in Vancouver, British Columbia...". Other relevant items include Nancy joined in 1974... and After gaining a following in Vancouver, Heart was approached by Shelly Siegel, the owner of the Canadian label Mushroom...
 * 7) "Seattle Music and Nightlife : Seattle Recording Artists". This is very brief - and is says nothing about the formation of the band other than Bellevue, a Seattle suburb, gave birth to sisters Ann and Nancy Wilson who later formed the group, Heart. It does not say what year, it does not say where, it does not say who joined what band - all we can get for sure is that Ann and Nancy were born in Bellevue and would later form Heart.
 * 8) "Last FM" "Hearts Biogrpahy". Upon first read it all sounded familiar - and there is a reason. Look way down at the bottom under "sources" - "Wikipedia". No Comment on this.


 * So if those were the only sources available I would write something like "While based in Vancouver, BC Heart may have formed in Seattle Washington in 1970 when the bands founding members Ann and Nancy Wilson enlisted the aid of an all-male vocal group consisting of Roger Fisher, Howard Leese, Michael Derosier and Steve Fossen. Over the next five years the band worked hard playing Led Zeppelin covers and decided to move to Canada where Mushroom records hired Howard Leese and signed the band."
 * Thankfully those are not the only available sources because if I worite than and cited those sources i would be hung out on a cyber tree limb. If you combine all of those sources, along with images and other sources, a more accurate timeline, with dates, starts to emerge. The suggestion of combining sources might work (With inline citations) - "While Roger Fisher, Steve Fossen and Ann Wilson, the founding members of Heart, along with Nancy Wilson, who would join the band in 1974 , all have claimed the band was formed in Canada sources independent from the band claim the band may have been formed when Ann Wilson joined an all-male "vocal group" in Seattle, Wa in 1970 and it was not until after Nancy Wilson joined in 1974 the band moved to Canada together . There are even some independent sources who claim Howard Leese was a founding member of the band in 1970 ." I don't really think that is needed but if it is a consensus to to reflect every POV out there than there has to be a lot of work done on the entire article to reflect that. Of course that is not what the issues were at all in requesting a 3O or a consensus. Soundvisions1 (talk) 04:51, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * A Wikipedia article is a condensed version of published sources. If the sources state that the band formed in Vancouver, then that is what should go into the article. If there are alternative sources that say the band formed in Seattle, then they should also be quoted, and a comment made that there are alternative interpretations of where the band formed. I think the version you are heading for above is EXACTLY the sort of informative and encyclopedic information a Wikipedia article should be striving for. Sometimes a topic is too complex for the restricted information required for an InfoBox and great care needs to be taken as to what is said in the more simplistic style of an InfoBox. If the roots of the band are complex and different sources give different interpretations then a well researched and academic article reflects that in a way that a simple InfoBox cannot. The advice on what to do in cases like this where one piece of information needs to be given even though there are alternatives, is to go with what most reliable sources say. I'm not yet convinced that the MAJORITY of reliable sources give Vancouver as the founding place of the band. I've read quite convincing arguments that at least one of the main band members feels that the band were formed in Vancouver, but using those arguments to state that the band formed in Vancouver is possibly running up against official Wikipedia policy in the use and interpretation of primary sources. It's worth taking a look at this: Primary_source to check if the available sources are being correctly used.  SilkTork  *YES! 00:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Is this some kind of conspiracy?
Wow, I'm reading all these discussion points and I can't help but think you people are debating some kind of conspiracy theory about whether Heart is really a Canadian band or an American band, and who joined when, and when were they in Canada or in America. I can only add that when I was a teenager, I was a huge Heart fan, so much that I was reading everything I could about the band. I recall that the band was originally formed in Seattle, moved to Canada because of the draft situation. Ann joined the group when they were already in Canada and Nancy joined a bit later. Now, don't really understand why it's such a big deal. Not like there's an award for who can claim a rock band. Maybe because Ann and Nancy didn't actually join until they were in Canada is where everyone is coming up with the argument that the band, as it was when they became famous, was formed in Canada. But, pre-Wilson sisters, they formed in Seattle.

The reason that Ann and Nancy are considered to be Heart and vice versa is that, yes, they were the main focal point of the band. But, also, if you look through their huge catalog of music from the beginning, they were the main songwriters. Yes, the men did contribute. But not as much as the two sisters did. And, it must be said, through the changes in music style - but not too far from their origins - the two sisters have kept the band alive and are still kickin it out. Where are the guys that have been in the band? Mm hmm, nowhere.

Regardless of copyright laws and permissions, the biggest reason for Ann n Nancy's rejection of the RNC using Barracuda is primarily due to the fact that if you understand the lyrics and the meaning of the song, it's entirely hypocritical for the RNC to use this song in relationship to anything connected to John McCain. Anything political, for that matter. Awa611 (talk) 01:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)awa611 11/16/2008