Talk:Heart of Darkness/Archive 1

Big on interpretation, little on content
Having never read the book, I gleaned at the article to figure out what the exact plot and characters were in the book. Much to my disappointment however, the article provides only a detailed analysis of the inspiration and symbolism of the book w/o any really details on the characters or story, except where necessary to move forward on the analytic end.

Perhaps more detail about the book itself is warranted, to complement the other material. 65.30.164.29 (talk) 01:47, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

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Headline text
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Major themes
Although it is the traditional symbol and immediately obvious answer, arguing that the major theme/motif is the darkness of barbarity contrasting the light of civilization is a hard point to make after examining the book in depth (e.g. the dark cloud obscuring the thames at the end). Perhaps others could add their opinions to this. My fear is that the current state is too much like the shallow sparknotes-type interpretation.


 * I agree with the above. Not only do I think that the interpretation of Conrad's novel as a contrast between "dark" barbarity and "enlightened" civilization is overly-simplistic, but I also think that it is fundamentally wrong: one might as well interpret Shakespeare's Macbeth -- which explores very similar themes and which I'm sure was a great influence on Conrad -- as the mere contrast between "good" Macduff and "evil" Macbeth.


 * Conrad was too good of a writer to interpret him in such a fashion. This book is not about the differences between "civilized" Europeans and "uncivilized" Africans; it is about the barbarity that lurks just underneath the surface of each and every one of us. This view is supported by many things in the text, but what immediately comes to mind is the simoultaneous settings of the Thames and Congo rivers, and particularly the fact that Kurtz is himself a European. As an argument about the fundamental similarity of all human beings, Heart of Darkness serves as a stark condemnation of colonialism, all the more incredible if one considers when it was written. Unfortunately, the current article comes to the complete opposite conclusion. If anyone else wants to rework this section, I'm more than willing to lend a hand. --Todeswalzer | Talk 22:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree strongly with the line : "Conrad stresses the importance of restraint...". I believe we can say without ambiguity, that he shows restraint to be an illusion, hiding the reality of darkness at the heart of the human condition. He does not attack restraint itself, other than to say it is an illusion. The savagery of Kurtz is an equally undesirable state of existence. I made appropriate changes to illustrate what the book suggests is the "Choice of nightmares".

Controversial book?
I assert that Heart of Darkness is controversial, as stated in the "controversy" section of the article. There are many who believe that the book is racist, but there are also many who believe that it is a valuable classic that helped expose European atrocities in the Congo... to me, this spells controversy, so I restored the "Controversial Books" category. -Vontafeijos 20:20, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I approve of the removal of the category Controversial Books, for the reason that it seems very hard to objectively decide which books are members of it. If there was a notable institution, or awards ceremony, or noted booklist, then one could have a category "Top 100 controversies" for example. Absent such, the decision as to membership must surely be POV. -Wikibob 01:47, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

The following are published works and quotes all aimed at debating whether or not Joseph Conrad is a racist or whether his book is an important exposè into the Congolese atrocities.
 * Wikibob, there are many books listed as controversial in the Controversial Books category, some of them which are obviously controversial; The Bell Curve, for example, discusses the highly controversial topic of race/intelligence correlation. The reason The Bell Curve is listed isn't because someone just decided it was (which would be POV), it was classified as controversial because of the tangible debate that it generated.  In this particular case, an entire collection of essays was created entitled The Bell Curve Wars that critiqued the value of The Bell Curve.  The existence of this work is enough to make it obvious that the book is controversial.  Therefore since there is no listing of controversial books, we must look at if there is any controversy to speak of in the form of debates, lectures, literary essays, books, and articles about Heart of Darkness.  There is a sizable amount of debate on the book, beginning in 1975 with Chinua Achebe, so I still claim that the book has generated more than enough controversy to be considered a controversial book.


 * An Image of Africa: Racism in Conrad's Heart of Darkness by Chinua Achebe
 * Conrad's image of Africa: Recovering African voices in Heart of Darkness by Peter Mwikisa
 * Heart of Darkness: Problem for Critics by Robert F. Haugh
 * Conrad the Novelist by Albert J. Guerard
 * Quote from Chinua Achebe illustrating the controversy generated by his 1975 lecture against Heart of Darkness: "After I delivered my lecture at Harvard, a professor emeritus from the University of Massachusetts said, 'How dare you? How dare you upset everything we have taught, everything we teach? ‘Heart of Darkness’ is the most widely taught text in the university in this country. So how dare you say it’s different?'"
 * Envisioning Africa: Racism and Imperialism in Conrad's Heart of Darkness by Peter Edgerly Firchow (Book review with summary of key points and excerpts)

-Vontafeijos 05:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello Vontafeijos, I do not doubt at all it has been criticised by many. I am simply against the category itself, for the much the same reasons given in CFD. the category Controversial books was recently deleted in WP:CFD by the way. Your references should be put into the article itself. There is a List of controversial books which could include it, although I feel an actual description of the controversies with cites is far superior for an enclyclopedia. -Wikibob 13:40, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Copyvio?
The following had been tagged to the end of the article:

Conrad’s Critique of Imperialism in Heart of Darkness HUNT HAWKINS

Today many students of history, as well as of literature, read the novel Joseph Conrad set in Congo of 1890. In our era of decolonization, they are interested because the story is one of fiction’s strongest statements about imperialism. Of course, the novel has other important themes, both psychological and metaphysical. But the theme of imperialism is obvious and central Conrad himself stressed it in a letter to his publisher, William Blackwood: “The title I am thinking of is The Heart of Darkness but the narrative is not gloomy. The criminality of inefficiency and pure selfishness when tackling the civilizing work in Africa is a justifiable idea. The subject is of our time distinctly” This declaration seems quite simple, but it is not. The aim of this essay is to examine Conrad’s extremely complex, and as yet inadequately understood, critique of imperialism in Heart of Darkness.

Most literary critics, not specifically interested in the political side of the story, have assumed in passing that it is anti-imperialist, then have gone on to analyze other aspects of the narrative.

Theshibboleth 04:41, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Munich
regarding this addition by anon:


 * 2005 -- Munich has many themes found in Heart of Darkness, could also be read as a variation on the theme from Steven Spielberg.

I have not seen the film Munich, but is there a known connection, or is this original research? --Stbalbach 03:55, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The reference has been made in reviews, but isn't, I would think, important enough to be here. If anywhere, it belongs in the film's article. Thematic parallels per se don't merit inclusion; I don't know that Kushner has actually specifically referenced the book in his screenplay. - Nunh-huh 04:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Picture
I very much recommend taking out the picture and replacing it with this one, if you very much want a picture relating directly to the book maybe look for a picture of the first edition, but just taking one randomly doesn't make sense, better than that would be no picture at all. Like this it looks like some kind of add. --89.51.85.78 18:58, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a better picture in the french wikipedia (here) showing the ship (the "Roi des Belges") Conrad navigated up the Congo. I would change it but don't know how. --89.51.93.206 11:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I added this picture now, one question regarding the description remains: "El Roi des Belges, modelo para el barco de vapor de El Corazón de las tinieblas, al breve mando de Conrad" Does this really mean that he himself used this ship for travelling? In my understanding it means that it is one modelled the same as his. The quote is taken from here, the page the picture originates from. --Lamme Goedzak 07:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

BAD WRITING
"with the full righteousness of today's modern relativistic values seems not a little facetious"

1. Someone doesn't know what faceitous means (or how to spell it). 2. "the full righteousness" doesn't fit.

"Destroy all the brutes" --66.218.13.28 04:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC) Actually, "facetious" is correct.


 * lol. Abjective: facetious. 1. Cleverly amusing in tone "facetious remarks" 121.44.56.22 06:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Racism paragraph
Regarding this paragraph:


 * Although it seems that the work is racist, the reader must keep in mind that the work is a frame tale; it is not the narrator's words, they are the words of Marlow, a Victorian imperialist with prejudices, which would make him used to using derogatory phrases against the Africans that he sees exploited by the European imperialists. Also, if we keep in mind the broad line, separating the artist from the work he creates, we really have no way of knowing whether Conrad or anyone else was indeed racist (even if he was, it matters not against such an important work in the English language). Furthermore, the work is supposed to be a nightmare atmosphere and names such as "nigger" only helps to show the injustice of European exploitation upon the African people. Even in the mind of Marlow, an outsider to such atrocities, it is still not completely in the right with his condescending views on the Africans as a people. A work of art should never be seen as "autobiographical" as a critic of the stature of Achebe is so quick to say.

This is inappropriate for Wikipedia. "Although it seem the work is racist.." seems to who? "the reader must keep in mind.." says who? "Also, if we keep in mind.." who is "we"? Basically the whole thing is original research written by a Wikipedia editor in a conversational tone appealing to some unknown authority. The content is OK but the way it is written and worded and lack of sources is problematic. -- Stbalbach 16:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC) l

Conrad was not racist. That's the point of the entire damn book. Marlow's mind is clouded at first by a corrupt civilization. His travels into the heart of darkness strip away these layers of 'culture' bringing to bear his raw mind against a pure truth: The imperialist paradigm is a distractor, an excuse for the masses, for a colonialist power to profit. These ideas very closely coincide with those of Noam Chomsky.

It can be easy to forget that 'nigger' was largely a non-derogatory term for most of it's history, certainly up to the turn of the last century. Arguably it would have been even less charged in a London separated from the tensions of slave-owning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.130.17 (talk) 21:24, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Apocalypse Now reference
Missing reference and links to Apocalypse Now in the tail. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.132.17.194 (talk) 18:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

External links section
There are currently six links to different electronic versions of the novel. One -- maybe two -- should be more than adequate. I would suggest choosing which ones are better, and removing the others. -- Todeswalzer | Talk 17:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * An excellent point... and now, only nine months later, I've taken care of it! --JayHenry 03:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal
I can't see why Georges Antoine Klein warrants his own article - surely he could be dealt with sufficiently in this one? Madmedea 10:10, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd prefer to see him merged into Kurtz (Heart of Darkness) with a mention here. Unless there's any real potential that somebody could expand the Georges Antoine Klein article into more than a stub, I'd support the merge. --JayHenry 18:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it should be merged with the Kurtz article. Natalie West 22:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Question
Just now I added "His last step. My hesitating. Excerpt from Joseph Conrad: Heart of Darkness" in the art section. I got this information from http://libraries.theeuropeanlibrary.org/Germany/treasures_en.xml (scroll down to the 5th treasure). What do you think? Shuold it stay or go? If it stays, where do I refer to the source? Thanks, Fleurstigter 08:35, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Elcorazondelastinieblas.jpeg
Image:Elcorazondelastinieblas.jpeg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 05:42, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Unabridged??
Amazon has different versions of this book, and one says "unabridged." What is this, is it usually abridged? --Howdybob 20:13, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a very short book, I can't imagine that someone would abridge it. I would guess that almost all Amazon copies will be unabridged, but I guess be sure to read the information closely.  They won't abridge it without saying it's abridged. --JayHenry 20:40, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Eliot citation
"'He cried in a whisper at some image, at some vision,&mdash;he cried out twice, a cry that was no more than a breath&mdash;''The horror! The horror!'" T. S. Eliot's use of this famous quotation from Heart of Darkness as an epigraph to the original manuscript of The Waste Land contrasted with the "light of civilization" and the ambiguity of both - the dark motives of civilization and the freedom of barbarism, as well as the "spiritual darkness" of several characters. Where in the Waste Land does Eliot quote the 'horror' line? I can't find it in any of the online versions, and Google doesn't seem to know about it either. Should that paragraph start with a sentence about Eliot, even if he did quote Heart of Darkness? Surely the book can stand on it's own. Come to think of it, is this even a sentence? What's it meant to say? risk 02:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's a convenience link to an article from The Atlantic about the use of the epigraph.   It seems that Eliot used the quote only in the original manuscript  to the Waste Land, but changed it in all later versions.  But as to your other point: Is it even a sentence?  Unfortunately that characterizes much of this article...  It really needs a lot of work. --JayHenry 02:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

What does this sentence mean?
Second paragraph of "Motifs and Themes", first sentence:

"Africa was known as 'The Dark Continent' in long age the Victorian Era..."

Huh?

Jlaramee (talk) 14:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

PLEASE. NO THE!!!!
its called Heart of Darkness not The Heart of Darkness    there is no THE!!!!!!!!! i saw a few the's. 72.91.149.91 (talk) 00:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Orson Welles
How can Orson Welles' make an adaption of "FLICKER" in '91, when he dies in 1985? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gurach12 (talk • contribs) 11:22, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Flicker is a book by Theodore Roszak which is partially about Orson Welles. Welles didn't write it himself. --JayHenry (talk) 12:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

In the Arts
I undid Cabias' edit on 05:55, 14 February 2008 which removed all modern references to HoD under the pretense of "useless trivia". That is an ignorant statement of the times as modern art is reflected in Video Games and other forms not considered traditional.. Rasadam (talk) 11:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The trivia section is really rather unweildy, and current policy seems to favour snipping, as they contribute to the percieved superficiality of wikipedia. Regardless, a large number of them are explicitely referencing Apocalypse Now, so are innacurate or at least redundant and should be removed. 87.194.74.180 (talk) 23:17, 24 April 2008 (UTC)Kieran